Peak Malkin vs Current Draisaitl (Regular Season only - Do not count playoffs)

[SillyRabbit]

You don’t think Drai has shown how dominant of a player he is on his own terms outside of a 6 game sample?

Yikes. You need to re-evaluate your evaluation.

You purposely misinterpreting my post just makes you look bad, not me.

 

[bobholly39]

We can already account for scoring era though... and already know that the early 2010s were simply a different climate in that regard to now.

2010-17 was the lowest continual 8 years of scoring since the 1950s...

Sure scoring is higher past two years. So if Drai gets 112 points - advantage Malkin. What if he gets 120? 130? 135? It's hard to say.

If no other scorer in the next 3- 7 years top 120 points - both Kucherov last year and Drai this year will end up looking that much better

If instead there are 5-10 more seasons of 120+ points in the next 3 years - maybe Kuch and Drai stand out less.

For now - and assuming Drai hits ~130 - im tempted to give him the edge.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think Drai's current season will end up better than anything Malkin ever did in regular season. Was similarly as high on Kucherov last year. I think the point totals is insane - Drai is even inching close to the Rocket on top of it.

I think we'll get a better sense 5-10 years from now. If players hitting 125-130 points becomes the norm in coming seasons - maybe you start to attribute it a bit more to scoring era and Malkin's season looks a bit better in comparison. But until proven otherwise - ~130 points is better than Malkin.

As good as Draisaitl's production has been, I don't think you can discount how high league-wide scoring is now. When Malkin won the scoring title in 2012, no other player reached 100 points. This year, there's something like 9 or 10 guys on pace for 100+ points.

People point to PP opportunities after the 2005 lockout, but don't take into account all the changes to the rules in the last couple of years that have lead to an increase in offense. Goalie pad reduction, offensive zone faceoff rules, 3on3 OT, etc. have all lead to just as much a scoring bump as the rules after 2005 did.

 

[snipes]

You purposely misinterpreting my post just makes you look bad, not me.

So McDavid needs to be injured or out of the lineup more before he shows how dominant he is?

Just trying to clarify the goal posts, once again.

 

[bobholly39]

How can you not start by ignoring raw totals and look how each player measures up vs. their peers? You know better than this.

100 point players were a rarity from 2010/11 to 2016/17. No more than one year. Now we have multiple 100 point players the last three years.

Ignoring raw totals is such a ridiculous stance

You should actually start with raw totals - and then adjust accordingly if warranted.

100 point players being a rarity one year vs another doesnt necessarily mean scoring is easier. Sometimes - top scorers fluctuate in performance.

The point is - give it a few more years and it'll be easier to tell if Drais season totals should be adjusted and by how much is necessary

 

[Regal]

Sure scoring is higher past two years. So if Drai gets 112 points - advantage Malkin. What if he gets 120? 130? 135? It's hard to say.

If no other scorer in the next 3- 7 years top 120 points - both Kucherov last year and Drai this year will end up looking that much better

If instead there are 5-10 more seasons of 120+ points in the next 3 years - maybe Kuch and Drai stand out less.

For now - and assuming Drai hits ~130 - im tempted to give him the edge.

But why would that matter if scoring goes down again? Thornton and Jagr's seasons in '06 weren't better than anyone the decade after just because they topped 120, when we know scoring went down after that. The fact that goals per game has gone up, the top scorers point totals have soared and there's now been 3 players pacing for 120+ points the past 2 seasons, including McDavid doing it both years should put the numbers in context already. And maybe if it was just them you could argue it was a case of the best players being better, but look at the scoring list. Spezza was 4th in league scoring with 84 points in '12. We currently have 5 players above that and we're 3/4 of the way through the season. Karlsson was 10th in scoring in '12 with 78 points, which would have put him tied for 30th last year. There's a massive shift in scoring these past two seasons that is so blatantly clear that you can't ignore it. It absolutely explains the point totals regardless of anything that happens in the coming seasons. Also, Malkin missed 7 games and paced for 119 points, so we're not talking about a big difference over 82 games anyway

 

[KevinRedkey]

That's because he was #1

Went right over your head apparently. Lol

 

[snipes]

How many points does Drai need to beat peak Malkins total?

Are we talking a 125+ season? 130+ season? 135+ season? 140+ season?

Genuinely curious.

 

[Brucelenok]

How many points does Drai need to beat peak Malkins total?

Are we talking a 125+ season? 130+ season? 135+ season? 140+ season?

Genuinely curious.

Id say 130+ in this ERA to be considered on the same level as Malkin in 11-12 IMO. Dont forget in 11-12, Malkin missed 7 games, so if we play hypothetical scenario, he would be 120+ points most likely. Anyway, the answer to this question is Malkin for now

 

[Empoleon8771]

How many points does Drai need to beat peak Malkins total?

Are we talking a 125+ season? 130+ season? 135+ season? 140+ season?

Genuinely curious.

130+ while staying healthy.

Considering:

1. Scoring is much higher now, both in terms of overall and in terms of top end players
2. Malkin's 2-way game was much stronger than Draisaitl's 2-way game
3. Malkin did this while Crosby was out for 75% of games, while Draisaitl plays on a line a lot with McDavid

The offensive advantage has to be significant for me to think Draisaitl is topping 11-12 Malkin.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

How many points does Drai need to beat peak Malkins total?

Are we talking a 125+ season? 130+ season? 135+ season? 140+ season?

Genuinely curious.

Well it depends. As has been pointed out, Malkin, despite missing 7 games, had bigger leads over 2nd, 5th and 10th in pts % and PPG %. So it depends how much separation Drai gets. Also, Crosby missed 60 games that season and even for the 22 games he played, Malkin only saw him on the PP. Draisaitl was McDavid's W for half the season and now yeah he's playing great on his own line, but McDavid is taking all the tough matchups so Draisaitl has that luxury that Malkin didn't. And of course he's had McDavid on the PP all season except 6 games.

So I'd say Drai needs more separation over his peers than Malkin had, to offset the fact that he was McDavid's W for half the season, since moving to his own line gets the easier matchups and has had McDavid on the PP all season. Personally I don't see it happening. Draisaitl is having a great season but Malkin's 11/12 is 1 of the all time best, 1B to OV's 07/08 as best season of this century.

 

[34]

The better player. Yeah, the one with all the Stanley Cup rings. Not even close.

 

[daver]

Ignoring raw totals is such a ridiculous stance

You should actually start with raw totals - and then adjust accordingly if warranted.

100 point players being a rarity one year vs another doesnt necessarily mean scoring is easier. Sometimes - top scorers fluctuate in performance.

The point is - give it a few more years and it'll be easier to tell if Drais season totals should be adjusted and by how much is necessary

it is when the vast majority of the previous Top 50 scorers shows and increase in the points/PPG the very next season.

 

[snipes]

Well it depends. As has been pointed out, Malkin, despite missing 7 games, had bigger leads over 2nd, 5th and 10th in pts % and PPG %. So it depends how much separation Drai gets. Also, Crosby missed 60 games that season and even for the 22 games he played, Malkin only saw him on the PP. Draisaitl was McDavid's W for half the season and now yeah he's playing great on his own line, but McDavid is taking all the tough matchups so Draisaitl has that luxury that Malkin didn't. And of course he's had McDavid on the PP all season except 6 games.

So I'd say Drai needs more separation over his peers than Malkin had, to offset the fact that he was McDavid's W for half the season, since moving to his own line gets the easier matchups and has had McDavid on the PP all season. Personally I don't see it happening. Draisaitl is having a great season but Malkin's 11/12 is 1 of the all time best, 1B to OV's 07/08 as best season of this century.

What if I told you that Drai’s numbers are better away from McDavid than with him 5 v 5?

If he beats Malkins total by 20+ points is he not deserving respect?

Sorry, just the goal posts get moved so much with Drai that I honestly don’t know what else to say anymore.

 

[Merrrlin]

From an eye test, Malkin dominated the play on ways Drai just doesn’t. Sometimes McDavid has those moments too where everyone seems to be stuck in his gravity and reacting only to him, that’s how it felt watching prime Malkin.

 

[Merrrlin]

What if I told you that Drai’s numbers are better away from McDavid than with him 5 v 5?

If he beats Malkins total by 20+ points is he not deserving respect?

Sorry, just the goal posts get moved so much with Drai that I honestly don’t know what else to say anymore.

Maybe we all just don’t think he has the same affect on the game that Prime Malkin did? Drai reminds me of Beal in basketball - statistically a monster but doesn’t feel like the game runs through him like it does the other top players.

 

[Regal]

What if I told you that Drai’s numbers are better away from McDavid than with him 5 v 5?

If he beats Malkins total by 20+ points is he not deserving respect?

Sorry, just the goal posts get moved so much with Drai that I honestly don’t know what else to say anymore.

What goal posts are being moved? And how is this disrespect? Just because some people are too harsh on Draisaitl's season doesn't mean fans need to whine anytime his numbers are put in context. People are making cases based on league scoring, underlying metrics and teammates. Draisaitl scoring more away from McDavid doesn't mean he didn't benefit in their time together, as they have each other on the PP, while Malkin didn't have Crosby for most of '12. Malkin's season was voted above Kucherov's 128 point season in the "best season since the lockout" polls earlier in the year, despite Kucherov outscoring him by 19. It's not a Draisaitl issue. Malkin was just that good

 

[Regal]

Another thing to consider is that Malkin had only 13 secondary assists in '12 while Draisaitl already has 27. I don't believe secondary assists are worthless for star players, because usually they're doing things that help create the goal, but large disparities are usually more due to variance.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

How many points does Drai need to beat peak Malkins total?

Are we talking a 125+ season? 130+ season? 135+ season? 140+ season?

Genuinely curious.

I think it would also depend on what the guys around him end up at as well.

For instance, if Draisaitl gets 130 points, but McDavid ends up at 125 points and Pastrnak end up at 122 points, is that really more impressive than Malkin's 2012 season considering the increase in scoring?

Obviously scoring hasn't reached 1980's levels, but just think of Nicholls and Yzerman each topping 150 points that one season. The reason those two aren't considered all-time great seasons is because it also had Gretzky at 168 points and Lemieux at 199 points.

Obviously Draisaitl's having a tremendous season. And even with the uptick in scoring, his totals are incredibly impressive. But I just think you also have to factor in the totals around him to put into context his raw point totals.

 

[Synesthesia]

I rarely say AINEC... but Malkin AINEC

 

[MrSnrub]

Malkin AINEC. Come on now.

 

[valet]

Are we going to pretend Malkin won a selke or something?

No, but his xGA didn't even come close to outperforming his GF. That's for sure.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

This is Malkin AINEC.

And I’m not even saying that Draisaitl shouldn’t win the Hart. Peak Malkin was ridiculously good.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

What if I told you that Drai’s numbers are better away from McDavid than with him 5 v 5?

If he beats Malkins total by 20+ points is he not deserving respect?

Sorry, just the goal posts get moved so much with Drai that I honestly don’t know what else to say anymore.

Because McDavid is drawing the toughest matchups 5 v 5 and Draisaitl plays with the Oilers 3rd best forward in RNH. He better be putting up numbers in that situation.

Draisaitl is having a great season. I don't think it's disrespectful to say his season isn't better than the 2nd best season of the century.

No one is moving goal posts, this is pretty simple. Malkin wasn't Crosby's W for half the season, Draisaitl was McDavid's W for half the season. Malkin (solo) faced the toughest matchups for 60 games, Draisaitl (solo) faced them for 6 games. Malkin had Crosby on the PP for 22 games, Draisaitl has had McDavid on the PP for 61 games and counting. Malkin has more separation from the #2, #5 & #10 scorers, whether you use pts % or PPG %. No one is moving anything, these are facts and if you guys want Drai to be mentioned with the best of the best then every little detail matters and clearly he doesn't stack up just yet.

 

[BertMcDrai]

Because McDavid is drawing the toughest matchups 5 v 5 and Draisaitl plays with the Oilers 3rd best forward in RNH. He better be putting up numbers in that situation.

Draisaitl is having a great season. I don't think it's disrespectful to say his season isn't better than the 2nd best season of the century.

No one is moving goal posts, this is pretty simple. Malkin wasn't Crosby's W for half the season, Draisaitl was McDavid's W for half the season. Malkin (solo) faced the toughest matchups for 60 games, Draisaitl (solo) faced them for 6 games. Malkin had Crosby on the PP for 22 games, Draisaitl has had McDavid on the PP for 61 games and counting. Malkin has more separation from the #2, #5 & #10 scorers, whether you use pts % or PPG %. No one is moving anything, these are facts and if you guys want Drai to be mentioned with the best of the best then every little detail matters and clearly he doesn't stack up just yet.

I can agree with Malkin had a better season but some of your Points/facts are not totally true.
Since when is 12 higher than 13 points on the next in the scoring race? and what is pts% just use points diifference and on the 10th place the differnece is identical...ppg% that´s okay for me but to use two % of points is a little bit arbitrary to benefit Malkin for literally the same thing...but when I look at the third place than his ppg% is also better than the distance of Malkin on the third...so the 2, 5 and 10 in the scoring race is a little bit cherry picking.
And the McD line isn´t always the first line with the hardest matchup it´s also the Drai line in some games.
And one thing you totally forgot, the second place in scoring is Connor F*cking McDavid with the best ppg in the modern era and fifth all time...the second place in Malkins year was Stamkos (which is sure a great player).

With the rest of your post and your point you wanted to make I can agree