Amazing Kreiderman
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- Apr 11, 2011
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Dismal times... Sounds like we are picking in the top-3. Damn, I wish. I love to see us win the Cup but... I enjoy the off-season just as much as the post-season.
Player Discussion Pavel Buchnevich Part V
- Thread starter Ola
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Dismal times... Sounds like we are picking in the top-3. Damn, I wish. I love to see us win the Cup but... I enjoy the off-season just as much as the post-season.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
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I'd love to get a Ferrari but the problem is where can you drive it? I would be able to go to some drive thrus but I'd be paranoid to leave it parked.
Outside of many lazy starts because that could be a motivation issue, I think you're giving captains too much credit if you think they're responsible for defensive lapses and the PP.
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egelband
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- Sep 6, 2008
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eco's bones
Registered User
The Rangers falling short wasn't because the team sucks.
it's more about attitude and not wanting it enough. There's guys mailing it in--others taking periods off. Some with their heads up their *****. That was our playoff series against the Senators. We could have beat them and be in the conference finals now and yeah Pittsburgh is imploding now too--which goes to show you that anybody is beatable by anybody else--that if the Rangers had managed to face off against the Pens and if all our players were ready to go--we could be doing the same to Crosby and Company that the Senators are.
It's not really about the team being dismal--it's more about here was an opportunity to get back to the Cup finals and the Rangers blew it.
it's more about attitude and not wanting it enough. There's guys mailing it in--others taking periods off. Some with their heads up their *****. That was our playoff series against the Senators. We could have beat them and be in the conference finals now and yeah Pittsburgh is imploding now too--which goes to show you that anybody is beatable by anybody else--that if the Rangers had managed to face off against the Pens and if all our players were ready to go--we could be doing the same to Crosby and Company that the Senators are.
It's not really about the team being dismal--it's more about here was an opportunity to get back to the Cup finals and the Rangers blew it.
I have never seen the Rangers win a playoffs series and then read here that the other team mailed it in or that they took periods off.
Pittsburgh isn't imploding. They are crippled by injuries.
I always hate reading that someone says "they didn't want it enough" because it's pure ********.
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Gordon Bombay
Remptar
- Oct 13, 2006
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If what you are saying is true, give me one reason he shouldn't be traded ASAP. I think he's a head case, but that's not his problem.
Also, if you are right, every Ranger would hate his guts, which would also get him tossed.
I think, as fans, we want our team to give 100% at all times. We would, right? if we had that one single chance to play professional sports at a high level, something we've all fantasized about.
We just can't understand why players seem to come out "flat," are seemingly without focus or motivation, especially in big-game, playoff situations.
As fans, it is incomprehensible to us when players, or entire teams, don't seem to "show up."
And yet it happens in all sports, even to the best of teams and the best of players.
Sometimes, focused as we are on our own players, we don't give enough credit to the opposition.
Other times, we just don't see, or want to see, that we are dealing with imperfect humans: genetic freaks athletically, but humans all the same. We all, no matter what profession we are engaged in, have days when "we just don't have it," when we are just not as productive as others even when it is a day or on a project when we need to. It happens to the best, the most motivated, the most talented of us. It is not a question of money and the argument that if you are making an ungodly amount of money, you should always be motivated or at the top of your game is just not relevant. No matter what job we have, what skills we have, there is motivation to perform, pressure to perform.
Players can not seem " to show up" for a myriad of reasons. Perhaps there is a physical issue that we just don't know about, especially in the playoffs after a long season. Perhaps the player just doesn't feel right, has a cold, stomach isues, allergies, anything. We all know that those things affect us, so why shouldn't they affect athletes who don't have the luxury of sitting behind a desk or performing a non-physical job? Perhaps there is something else bugging them: perhaps one of their kids are sick, or their wife. Perhaps they are having "issues" in their relationships (no Matt Harvey jokes, please): we all know that these kinds of things can be distracting. Yes, the say, work can help you "get away," be an escape, to help you forget these things, and if may be for some, but for others it is not. I've never found it to be so: you carry your personal life to work with you. It can be a host of other things: Kreider, for instance, seems to overthink things and get lost in his own head. How do you stop him from doing that?
The bottom line is that players are humans, not computer constructs. If everyone performed at 100% all the time, and all those performance factors could be analyzed, then you would not even need to play the games. The results would be preordained.
Even the best leaders like Messier had down games even in the playoffs. We tend to remember performances like game 6 versus the Devils, but there were some bad loses against the Devs, and Canucks in the playoffs in 94: games that made you shake your heads.
So yes, it is inexplicable to us when players seem to under perform and not play to our high expectations in big game situations. We don't understand it because we like to think that we would never do something similar. How could they?
This is not to say that I am not as disappointed as everyone else. The Rangers should have won that series rather easily, had many of those games won. Like many, I was left scratching my head at what happened. In fact, it is the human aspect of the game; group dynamics, team physcology, that I often find the most interesting to think about.
I think, as fans, that we often forget that players are human. Doesn't take away from the disappointment. Doesn't take away from the fact that this particular team might not have the right mix of personalities, perhaps the right kind of leadership, because I think changes need to be made. But I do think that we need to "think" about individual players and their personalities a bit differently. To blame failure just on a perceived lack of motivation is wrong.
We just can't understand why players seem to come out "flat," are seemingly without focus or motivation, especially in big-game, playoff situations.
As fans, it is incomprehensible to us when players, or entire teams, don't seem to "show up."
And yet it happens in all sports, even to the best of teams and the best of players.
Sometimes, focused as we are on our own players, we don't give enough credit to the opposition.
Other times, we just don't see, or want to see, that we are dealing with imperfect humans: genetic freaks athletically, but humans all the same. We all, no matter what profession we are engaged in, have days when "we just don't have it," when we are just not as productive as others even when it is a day or on a project when we need to. It happens to the best, the most motivated, the most talented of us. It is not a question of money and the argument that if you are making an ungodly amount of money, you should always be motivated or at the top of your game is just not relevant. No matter what job we have, what skills we have, there is motivation to perform, pressure to perform.
Players can not seem " to show up" for a myriad of reasons. Perhaps there is a physical issue that we just don't know about, especially in the playoffs after a long season. Perhaps the player just doesn't feel right, has a cold, stomach isues, allergies, anything. We all know that those things affect us, so why shouldn't they affect athletes who don't have the luxury of sitting behind a desk or performing a non-physical job? Perhaps there is something else bugging them: perhaps one of their kids are sick, or their wife. Perhaps they are having "issues" in their relationships (no Matt Harvey jokes, please): we all know that these kinds of things can be distracting. Yes, the say, work can help you "get away," be an escape, to help you forget these things, and if may be for some, but for others it is not. I've never found it to be so: you carry your personal life to work with you. It can be a host of other things: Kreider, for instance, seems to overthink things and get lost in his own head. How do you stop him from doing that?
The bottom line is that players are humans, not computer constructs. If everyone performed at 100% all the time, and all those performance factors could be analyzed, then you would not even need to play the games. The results would be preordained.
Even the best leaders like Messier had down games even in the playoffs. We tend to remember performances like game 6 versus the Devils, but there were some bad loses against the Devs, and Canucks in the playoffs in 94: games that made you shake your heads.
So yes, it is inexplicable to us when players seem to under perform and not play to our high expectations in big game situations. We don't understand it because we like to think that we would never do something similar. How could they?
This is not to say that I am not as disappointed as everyone else. The Rangers should have won that series rather easily, had many of those games won. Like many, I was left scratching my head at what happened. In fact, it is the human aspect of the game; group dynamics, team physcology, that I often find the most interesting to think about.
I think, as fans, that we often forget that players are human. Doesn't take away from the disappointment. Doesn't take away from the fact that this particular team might not have the right mix of personalities, perhaps the right kind of leadership, because I think changes need to be made. But I do think that we need to "think" about individual players and their personalities a bit differently. To blame failure just on a perceived lack of motivation is wrong.
Well it may be hard to say every, but I'm with Eco here. They blew an excellent opportunity.
There are complacency and a bit of a fancy free attitude with a bunch of these happy go lucks that are just happy to be there.
Why the hell did Tanner fill such a critical need?
Guys like Pirri, Clendo, Puempel, Holden, Staal, Girardi, Nash. All in the locker room. All took shifts and games off.
Vesey.... 56 game ghost streak where he just played out his shifts.
Kredier... 30 game streak of pretending to be a new man, before treating hockey like a mundane workout again. Some days he'd hit it hard, others not so much.
It's not like Zibby also went all out all season.
Miller "Ran Out of Gas" but really, he scrubbed it up in the playoffs again.
Pavel showed up, but wasn't given an opportunity in the playoffs.
What does all of this fall on?
Individual situations contributing to a group whole. When we were at our best, we were greater than the sum of our parts. When we were at our worst, the individual parts contributed to a group melt down. And, you never know which it is going to be. And, for a team without a dominant, transcendent talent or an exceptional leader, when the individual pieces are having "issues," the group has no way to overcome the deficits. Sometimes talent and leadership is not even enough. The blame is everywhere, the blame is nowhere. Isn't that what makes sports so fascinating (and frustrating)?
GeorgeKaplan
Registered User
If this team wants to contend next year, and is worried about leadership and not being motivated enough, so get Justin Williams
I don't think it was a conscious decision. He just doesn't tap into all he can do consistently enough. I strongly suspect it's bc that idiot AV refuses to let his players engage physically past a certain level so guys are always thinking about holding themselves back. The man to man system likely also prevents guys from attempting plays they otherwise would b/c they're inextricably tethered to their man, leading to brain farts like abandoning EK in front of the net.
- May 30, 2013
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eco's bones
Registered User
I'll make it simpler for you. They got outworked and outhustled. They couldn't hold leads twice late in games. The Senators took those two games away from them. That's why I say they (as in the Senators) wanted it more. A number of players were non factors and our goalie underperformed after a great first round.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 14,652
- 6,288
The only people I know that look at the Rangers team or year as dismal are on NYR hockey boards. We are not an elite top 2 team right now but we have been far closer to the top than the bottom.
Blowing an excellent opportunity is very different from not wanting it enough.
Almost zero players produce on a regular basis throughout a season. It would be just as easy to find inconsistencies of production on every single roster.
Sometimes the solution is simple and people look for other reasons, like they didn't want it enough.
The reasons they are no longer playing are that they have three terrible defensemen. AV used these three way too much. Lundqvist was okay, but but far from great.
A couple of others vastly underperformed, including, Kreider, Miller, and Hayes.
Again, if you're in management and you believe that certain players didn't want it enough, you immediately try and trade them, because there can be no bigger indictment of a player.
I don't totally disagree, but I think the Rangers were as physical as any other team in the playoffs. Why their most physical player was their most passive remains a mystery and an indictment of him. I don't believe AV told him to not be physical.
We all saw the noticeable difference in that one game and to start the season. We also saw it early in his career but Torts was constantly on him and reeled it in so that CK could more consistently be in the correct position for Torts system. CK had a ton to learn so I think this was the right move overall at the time. But now it's a different story.
I think CK can more instinctually make the correct plays now but is still being reeled in to reduce risk.
A coach has to get him to tap into whatever was different in that last game (and in the early season). If that means letting him go berserk out there, fly around, smash into dudes and manhandle them at the risk of a few extra holds or charges for a dozen or so games while he figures it out then so be it.
At this point in his career with his speed and power guys should be afraid to head into a corner with him but they aren't. Instead of asserting himself on guys and shouldering them hard like he should, he instead tries to finesse past them and skate by them.
Let him f*** up, take penalties and whatnot. He'll eventually start to get a feel for what's too far and will add another aspect to his game. The coach, regardless of who it is, needs to push him there. Whatever approach AV is taking with him needs to be changed. This team was overall much more physical than it is now. It's lessened every year with the exception of Zuke. Some of that is age. Some of it. But I think AV, who has a reputation for this (Even in interviews with former players who like him), is the main reason why the team isn't as physical as it could be, should be and used to be.
Do we have to wait until Kreider is 35 before we can blame him for his inept play?
How many coaches before Cementhead gets it?
I think fans overrate the influence of a coach on how a player performs. Lots of players on the Rangers seem to get it. At some point, the blame falls squarely on the player if he plays like an idiot.
The Rangers were very physical in the playoffs, except for their most physical player.
Do we wait until 5 more players fail to develop and harness their full potential under AV? 6? 8? I think you drastically underestimate the influence a coach absolutely does have.
Recognizing AV's role doesn't absolve CK from blame.
How do you measure "Very physical"?
I thought the Rangers meted out more physical punishment than I can ever remember. The Montreal series was insanely physical, with the Rangers the more physical team.
I don't believe a coach can prevent a good player from becoming a good player. People here used to say that McIlrath would have been much better if he was handled better. I think he wasn't nearly as good as some others did.
Skjel has had no problem flourishing under AV. Miller, Fast, and Lindberg have done fine under him.
Irishguy42
Mr. Preachy
I think they can...to an extent. I think it's a grey area for us to examine since we aren't privy to most of the communication and whatnot between a player and the coach.
But that's a discussion for the AV thread. Not the PB thread.
at the beginning of the year, Kreider was saying all the right things. "I need to be a bully".
He played that way. He was hitting, forechecking like crazy. I was giddy that The kreider finally showed up.
in the playoffs, he was gliding around again, avoiding contact. I thought for sure he was injured.
Then in the last game, he turned it on for a minute. I don't see how you blame that on the coach.
I think he is a bargain, has potential, and will get better. But as much as he surprises with potential, he disappoints.
He played that way. He was hitting, forechecking like crazy. I was giddy that The kreider finally showed up.
in the playoffs, he was gliding around again, avoiding contact. I thought for sure he was injured.
Then in the last game, he turned it on for a minute. I don't see how you blame that on the coach.
I think he is a bargain, has potential, and will get better. But as much as he surprises with potential, he disappoints.
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