Player Discussion: Patrik Laine Part VII: Eliitti! - Mod Warning Post #79

[Aavco Cup]

3K posts

Let's celebrate

PS please don't attack me this time for having fun

 

[Festinator]

I think it IS killing Littles production, have said it many times. He plays a different game than those wingers. He needs Wheeler to get more out of Little. Someone he clicks with. Wheeler has been that in the past so that is the best guess we have for an optimal linemate that can get Little to 2nd center level.

2nd line needs to be separated because we need all cylinders firing. Little is an important part and the team should be able to get more out of him. But it does definitely require different linemates

This is what you should have said in the first place, and not that Little's past play means nothing and he's a 4th line player.

 

[Festinator]

3K posts

Let's celebrate

PS please don't attack me this time for having fun

Aavco take your positivity elsewhere, it's sickening. If you don't have anything bad to say, about Laine or his linemates, don't say anything at all!

 

[Couchcaptain]

3K posts

Let's celebrate

PS please don't attack me this time for having fun

It's starting to get hot here. On the road to 10k with increasing pace

 

[Brominator]

Who cares if he is under utilized? Those who want the team to be tuned to the max when playoffs start.

Who doesn't want all the pieces to be utilized?

There are trade-offs when making lines. Right now we have a rookie doing in nicely on the top line. As others have mentioned, lots of teams do that.

Hockey is a team game and this team is currently on fire.

 

[Psych0dad]

History is relevant, but only when it fits my narrative. When it doesn't, I will brush it off.

Scheifele and Wheeler work well today. Why aren't you raving about them and demanding them to be shackled to each other for the rest of their careers? Oh, I almost forgot the part about narratives.

No you just make false equivalence and it's impossible to rationally argue that.

Let's make this as easy as I possibly can so maybe it sinks in...

History matters for line combinations, if you can show that a line worked previously there is no reason to doubt it would not work well now. Only way to find out whether history is right, is to put it to a test today and see if results are still repeatable.

We know from experience over 2 seasons that ELL doesn't work. It didn't work last season and it doesn't work now. So that line should be buried. No reason to keep at it when there are options that have been proven previously to yield better results.

I said history doesn't matter in the case of Little having great career numbers if he isn't playing on that level anymore or momentarily. It doesn't.

Laines 36 goals don't matter in this season, he has to score new ones to be considered consistent and when he gets older and his production slows down, his career numbers will not justify his spot in top lines. That is why Jagr doesn't play in Florida anymore. By his career numbers he is the best player in the league. By his current form he barely got a contract.

So we are talking about two different histories. Personal career and line combinations. You can't draw equivalence for those like you attempted.

To make it even simpler:

Little has great career stats. CHECK

Little has awful stats this season. CHECK

Which of these facts is a more important one for the current season and the hunt for the cup? Do we get points or playoff wins from Littles career stats or his current form? Which one is relevant?

ELL had awful stats and chemistry last season. CHECK

ELL has awful statistics (offensive) this season. CHECK

In this case history and current situation are aligned. They are both the same result with the same combination. History and current day confirm this is a shit line offensively. Fact.

Laine did the best with Perreault and Scheifele. If I was to try and maximize Laines production on the expense of the team I would form that line again. But that would leave Ehlers out and he would not be utilized to his maximum if he stayed with Little. That is why I would put Ehlers in with Chef. Not because he has earned it but because it seems to be the best scenario for the whole team.

I would not want to bring Perreault up just to boost Laine, because he makes the 3rd line work magic so far.


Scheifele and Laine together are statistically the best combination of the team. CHECK

They have not played a single game together this season. CHECK

Ehlers scored all his goals early with Chef. CHECK

How much clearer does it need to get?

 

[Psych0dad]

There are trade-offs when making lines. Right now we have a rookie during in nicely on the top line. As others have mentioned, lots of teams do that.

Hockey is a team game and this team is currently on fire.

Team could have 4 working lines instead of 3.

Hockey is a team game and the more you get out of everyone in the team, the better you are as a team.

There is no available evidence to suggest that Connor or Wheeler would die on Littles wings like Laine and Ehlers do. In fact there is previous experience with Wheeler and Little and it worked great. That would suggest this is a move that would get more out of Little. Have to find out if that would still be the case.

The effect on Connor is something we don't yet know. Only one way to find out.

And if they do die on Littles wing as well, or if you are concerned that they would, then guess who it would point to as a problem?

I'd rather have 4 good lines than 3. But that's just me. And mathematics..

 

[Psych0dad]

This is what you should have said in the first place, and not that Little's past play means nothing and he's a 4th line player.

I did say this in the first place. I said it a week ago or longer. I said they are all suffering from the lack of chemistry and different reads.

Littles past play means, for this season's hopes, just as much as Jagrs past play matters to Calgary flames this year. f*** all.

Currently he isn't playing like a 2nd line center but that could possibly be fixed by Wheeler and if it is not fixed by Wheeler then it's 3rd line for Little because then it's self evident he is the reason for his low performance and at that point his icetime should be reduced and he should focus on being a fantastic shut down line center. Until he finds his mojo again or doesn't.

What do we lose by trying ESL and CLW?

It would give us answers and possibly make the team even better. If it doesn't, changes can be made

 

[Psych0dad]

This really is not a difficult concept to get. Please argue back with logic if you can.

 

[Daximus]

This really is not a difficult concept to get. Please argue back with logic if you can.

The only real argument that can be made is who cares if Laine isn't being used to his highest potential if we are winning games. We aren't the Laine Jets. We are the Winnipeg Jets and you don't change your lines when you are winning. Regardless of underlying stats.

 

[Maukkis]

No you just make false equivalence and it's impossible to rationally argue that.

Let's make this as easy as I possibly can so maybe it sinks in...

History matters for line combinations, if you can show that a line worked previously there is no reason to doubt it would not work well now. Only way to find out whether history is right, is to put it to a test today and see if results are still repeatable.

We know from experience over 2 seasons that ELL doesn't work. It didn't work last season and it doesn't work now. So that line should be buried. No reason to keep at it when there are options that have been proven previously to yield better results.

I said history doesn't matter in the case of Little having great career numbers if he isn't playing on that level anymore or momentarily. It doesn't.

Laines 36 goals don't matter in this season, he has to score new ones to be considered consistent and when he gets older and his production slows down, his career numbers will not justify his spot in top lines. That is why Jagr doesn't play in Florida anymore. By his career numbers he is the best player in the league. By his current form he barely got a contract.

So we are talking about two different histories. Personal career and line combinations. You can't draw equivalence for those like you attempted.

To make it even simpler:

Little has great career stats. CHECK

Little has awful stats this season. CHECK

Which of these facts is a more important one for the current season and the hunt for the cup? Do we get points or playoff wins from Littles career stats or his current form? Which one is relevant?

ELL had awful stats and chemistry last season. CHECK

ELL has awful statistics (offensive) this season. CHECK

In this case history and current situation are aligned. They are both the same result with the same combination. History and current day confirm this is a **** line offensively. Fact.

Laine did the best with Perreault and Scheifele. If I was to try and maximize Laines production on the expense of the team I would form that line again. But that would leave Ehlers out and he would not be utilized to his maximum if he stayed with Little. That is why I would put Ehlers in with Chef. Not because he has earned it but because it seems to be the best scenario for the whole team.

I would not want to bring Perreault up just to boost Laine, because he makes the 3rd line work magic so far.


Scheifele and Laine together are statistically the best combination of the team. CHECK

They have not played a single game together this season. CHECK

Ehlers scored all his goals early with Chef. CHECK

How much clearer does it need to get?

I'm waiting for the point at which you address Scheifele and Wheeler being a working combination today. On top of that, they have been excellent in the past. By your standards, they should be off limits and anyone who would ever suggest breaking them up should be banished from the face of the earth. It's a shame it doesn't fit in your narrative.

 

[Psych0dad]

The only real argument that can be made is who cares if Laine isn't being used to his highest potential if we are winning games. We aren't the Laine Jets. We are the Winnipeg Jets and you don't change your lines when you are winning. Regardless of underlying stats.

I just disagree completely with that kind of thinking.

I would always work towards optimizing any situation and not rest on "Oh well we are winning " as in regular season wins are the goal to reach this season.

I want the team to fire on all cylinders and then once you find the best available combinations you let them develop chemistry together and freeze the lineup until it stops performing at maximum. Then you make adjustments.

Getting the best out of Laine, Ehlers and Little is in the best interest of the Winnipeg Jets. If you don't see that, I don't know what to say to you.

Getting complacent is not a viable option for a team who wants to win the cup. We expect players to show up for practice even when they are winning. So we expect them to improve even when doing well. Are you going to tell me we should cancel practice too since we don't need to get any better? Because that's what you are arguing when it comes to testing line combinations and to me that thinking is unacceptable

Edit: Not "lime" combinations. I don't need suggestions like coconut..

 

[Psych0dad]

I'm waiting for the point at which you address Scheifele and Wheeler being a working combination today. On top of that, they have been excellent in the past. By your standards, they should be off limits and anyone who would ever suggest breaking them up should be banished from the face of the earth. It's a shame it doesn't fit in your narrative.

Laine has better numbers with Chef than Wheeler does.

Chef has better numbers with Laine than Wheeler.

To get the best out of Chef, his optimal winger so far has been Laine, the statistics suggest.

Are you suggesting Wheelers production would die on Littles wing?

 

[Brominator]

Team could have 4 working lines instead of 3.

Hockey is a team game and the more you get out of everyone in the team, the better you are as a team.

There is no available evidence to suggest that Connor or Wheeler would die on Littles wings like Laine and Ehlers do. In fact there is previous experience with Wheeler and Little and it worked great. That would suggest this is a move that would get more out of Little. Have to find out if that would still be the case.

The effect on Connor is something we don't yet know. Only one way to find out.

And if they do die on Littles wing as well, or if you are concerned that they would, then guess who it would point to as a problem?

I'd rather have 4 good lines than 3. But that's just me. And mathematics..

I'd be happy to try to mix up the lines. Also happy to see Scheif with Laine again at some point. I fully expect that they'll be on the same line a lot over the next decade.
But why would we change up the lines in the midst of a 4 game win streak, with just one regulation loss in our last 13 games? And even with Laine being "underutilized" he's still got one of the longest active points streaks in the NHL and just equaled the longest streak of his career so far.

What exactly are we arguing about? Things are going really well but they should be going better?

Honestly, I think the Jets could win the cup, but if Laine isn't the playoff MVP, some people are going to be pissed and call for the coach to be fired.

 

[Daximus]

I just disagree completely with that kind of thinking.

I would always work towards optimizing any situation and not rest on "Oh well we are winning " as in regular season wins are the goal to reach this season.

I want the team to fire on all cylinders and then once you find the best available combinations you let them develop chemistry together and freeze the lineup until it stops performing at maximum. Then you make adjustments.

Getting the best out of Laine, Ehlers and Little is in the best interest of the Winnipeg Jets. If you don't see that, I don't know what to say to you.

Getting complacent is not a viable option for a team who wants to win the cup. We expect players to show up for practice even when they are winning. So we expect them to improve even when doing well. Are you going to tell me we should cancel practice too since we don't need to get any better? Because that's what you are arguing when it comes to testing line combinations and to me that thinking is unacceptable

Well put me in the WINS column rather than the optimize the lineup column. We can optimize the lineup when we have qualified for a playoff spot. Until then if it ain't broke don't fix it. I don't think it's any surprise that it's mostly Laine fans calling for a change. Anyone whose been a Jet fan for longer then Laine has been here cares about one thing and one thing only. Winning hockey games.

 

[Psych0dad]

I'd be happy to try to mix up the lines. Also happy to see Scheif with Laine again at some point. I fully expect that they'll be on the same line a lot over the next decade.
But why would we change up the lines in the midst of a 4 game win streak, with just one regulation loss in our last 13 games? And even with Laine being "underutilized" he's still got one of the longest active points streaks in the NHL and just equaled the longest streak of his career so far.

What exactly are we arguing about? Things are going really well but they should be going better?

Honestly, I think the Jets could win the cup, but if Laine isn't the playoff MVP, some people are going to be pissed and call for the coach to be fired.

Why would we change it? Because it can be better and it would answer the question whether or not those combinations would get more out of everyone or not.

To me it looks like a lot of you guys are afraid of the answers maybe? Because if Wheeler gets killed by the move, you don't want to know that about Littles current play.

We would find out. But some seem reluctant to find out.

 

[PhilJets]

When things are going well it doesnt mean you stop improving. You can make little tweaks to make things more efficient. Team is rolling but we know they are not dominating games. That is a fact.

Huge reason for this record is the goaltending and improved and healthy top 6.

Which NHL team doesnt want to get their 2nd line going? Thats probably death in the playoffs.

Good thing for the JETS there are tweaks that are not chemistry disturbing changes as it was proven before.


Maurice is not going to do that which is understadable. Because he is the one who faces the players. Not us. Team is winning. But it showing the difference of elite coaches and good coaches.

Any coaches will try to find ways to get 2nd line going after 10 non productive games.
But he is seeing something that we are not seeing. He is privi to more info and data.

Anyways someone should put a poll in the main board which is better fir the "jets" without touching the rest of the line up.

Just flip schiefele and little keep the pair of wings intact.

Laine is awesome his line is struggling and he has 8 game point streaks. Who does that?

 

[Psych0dad]

Well put me in the WINS column rather than the optimize the lineup column. We can optimize the lineup when we have qualified for a playoff spot. Until then if it ain't broke don't fix it. I don't think it's any surprise that it's mostly Laine fans calling for a change. Anyone whose been a Jet fan for longer then Laine has been here cares about one thing and one thing only. Winning hockey games.

Optimizing your lineup will always win more than complacency. Best way to achieve the winning you so crave is to optimize your lineup.

[mod]

 

[Randal61]

If it ain't broke................

 

[Psych0dad]

If it ain't broke................

Is the 2nd line working to it's players full potential? Or even 50%?

It is broken. Unless that's what you are expecting from two 6 million a year players and the best shooter in the game

 

[KingBogo]

Well put me in the WINS column rather than the optimize the lineup column. We can optimize the lineup when we have qualified for a playoff spot. Until then if it ain't broke don't fix it. I don't think it's any surprise that it's mostly Laine fans calling for a change. Anyone whose been a Jet fan for longer then Laine has been here cares about one thing and one thing only. Winning hockey games.

Agreed. IMO you pull out the blender when you need to jump start the team, not when they are on a roll. So what happens if Mo changes up the lines before Nashville and the team goes cold on a tough road trip? A time will come, likely after a couple loses that the lines get switched up.

 

[Maukkis]

Laine has better numbers with Chef than Wheeler does.

Chef has better numbers with Laine than Wheeler.

To get the best out of Chef, his optimal winger so far has been Laine, the statistics suggest.

Are you suggesting Wheelers production would die on Littles wing?

What I am suggesting is that your argumentation is awful. You specifically stated that with line combos, the past needs to factored in just like the present. Scheifele and Wheeler are a working combination on both accounts. The only problem you would ever have with that is if you cared about Laine's point totals so much that you would ignore parts of your own logic to make everything work with your narrative.

For the record, even I agree with swapping Laine and Wheeler. It is just f***ing pathetic when people prioritize any individual player's success over the team's success. What's more, it gets even worse when they're trying to disguise it.

 

[Duke749]

This suggestion that Little has somehow fallen off a cliff in like 3 months is completely asinine.

 

[Daximus]

Optimizing your lineup will always win more than complacency. Best way to achieve the winning you so crave is to optimize your lineup.

[mod]

The best way to achieve the winning we crave is to stay on course. We are in fact winning right now.

 

[Daximus]

Agreed. IMO you pull out the blender when you need to jump start the team, not when they are on a roll. So what happens if Mo changes up the lines before Nashville and the team goes cold on a tough road trip? A time will come, likely after a couple loses that the lines get switched up.

Exactly. There's really no point to messing with things right now. Laine will be fine.