Player Discussion: Patrik Laine Part VII: Eliitti! - Mod Warning Post #79

[Daximus]

And they do nothing with it. You just argued my point even further. They are supposed to be a scoring line. They are not one.

I did not just argue your point even further, I completely shut it down but hey if you want to think that then so be it.

 

[Psych0dad]

Contrary to a few of the comments so far, I don't see Maurice sitting on his line combo's if they start losing.

Agree to most of your post and hope you are right on this. It's just that it's been over 30 games of 2nd line MIA and there definitely have been more than a couple losses, like the start of the season when 1st line was crap and Wheeler completely off his rocker. No changes then, and that would have been the logical time.

Tjat is why I doubt Maurices ability to make this change. He already had all the justification for it start of this season, he did not jump on that opportunity to test out what we can get with ESL and CLW. Why would he after the next two losses in a row? He has already shown he doesn't have it in him.

Can you guys explain what the reasons are, outside of blind faith, that he will make this change after a couple of losses?

 

[Psych0dad]

I did not just argue your point even further, I completely shut it down but hey if you want to think that then so be it.

No you provided an argument for my position. If that is shutting it down, we have different dictionaries

 

[Aavco Cup]

Aavco is clearly an Athletic supporter.

Here's a recent photograph

 

[Daximus]

No you provided an argument for my position. If that is shutting it down, we have different dictionaries

You said they are a shutdown line. I proved to you they are not. Simple really.

 

[Psych0dad]

You said they are a shutdown line. I proved to you they are not. Simple really.

Their offensive production is on level with good shut down lines, and their defense is of a good one too.

But they are not supposed to be that. You don't get the best out of them with this line. Or are you saying this is the best you could get out of the 3? And what evidence do you have of that because statistics surely argue against that.

Those wingers were both on over 70 point pace last season and Ehlers got over 70. Then they hit the Little line and production has been what...half of that pace or worse? I don't have the stats handy how much their production drops with Little but I'll throw an estimate...they get about 1/3 offensive production out of those two with Little, compared to them with Chef.

Might be generous.

 

[Daximus]

Their offensive production is on level with good shut down lines, and their defense is of a good one too.

But they are not supposed to be that. You don't get the best out of them with this line. Or are you saying this is the best you could get out of the 3? And what evidence do you have of that because statistics surely argue against that.

I never made any of those arguments. I simply corrected your statement that they are being used in a shutdown role. They are all playing bad but the rest of the team and lines are flying. No point in changing anything up to help out 3 players when the other 9 are playing well. They'll find their groove eventually, they don't have to score every game to be effective. The opposing team simply focusing on shutting them down, like they have been doing is good enough to open up matchups vs the other 3 lines.

 

[Psych0dad]

I simply corrected your statement that they are being used in a shutdown role. They are all playing bad but the rest of the team and lines are flying. No point in changing anything up to help out 3 players when the other 9 are playing well. They'll find their groove eventually, they don't have to score every game to be effective. The opposing team simply focusing on shutting them down, like they have been doing is good enough to open up matchups vs the other 3 lines.

I never said they are being used for a 4th liner shutdown role, so you didn't correct my statement, you corrected the misunderstanding you had of what I had said .

I said they produce like one. They are the 2nd line but they produce like a 4th. Get it now?

That to me is not acceptable. Leaving a ton of offense unused when there is no logical reason to do so. For what particular reason? Because magic suggests that 3 working lines is better than 4 working lines?

Because it makes some strange sense to some people that there's no point in improving if we are winning?

 

[LowLefty]

I never said they are being used for a 4th liner shutdown role, so you didn't correct my statement, you corrected the misunderstanding you had of what I had said .

I said they produce like one. They are the 2nd line but they produce like a 4th. Get it now?

That to me is not acceptable. Leaving a ton of offense unused when there is no logical reason to do so. For what particular reason? Because magic suggests that 3 working lines is better than 4 working lines?

Because it makes some strange sense to some people that there's no point in improving if we are winning?

There is a risk every time you shuffle lines - you may improve one and destroy 2 - this is risky, especially when you are winning.
I get your point - I agree the 2nd line needs something but I don't think we should be tinkering (yet).

 

[Daximus]

I never said they are being used for a 4th liner shutdown role, so you didn't correct my statement, you corrected the misunderstanding you had of what I had said .

I said they produce like one. They are the 2nd line but they produce like a 4th. Get it now?

That to me is not acceptable. Leaving a ton of offense unused when there is no logical reason to do so. For what particular reason? Because magic suggests that 3 working lines is better than 4 working lines?

Because it makes some strange sense to some people that there's no point in improving if we are winning?

You don't have to be a 4th liner to be in a shutdown role. And also they must be the best 4th line in the league with that kind of production. We should at least be happy we have the best 4th line in the league.

There's no point in making sure Laine scores 50 goals no. Because deep down that is all you care about. So you can go on the mains and brag to his detractors. I have no interest in making sure Laine scores 50 goals. I have an interest in making sure we win games and we are doing that right now.

 

[Psych0dad]

There is a risk every time you shuffle lines - you may improve one and destroy 2 - this is risky, especially when you are winning.
I get your point - I agree the 2nd line needs something but I don't think we should be tinkering (yet).

I understand the risk. I just happen to think, based on the mentioned evidence, that it should work better for almost everyone in the mix. And if it did not, it would answer the question what was wrong with 2nd line. And then we could adjust the lines armed with that knowledge.

 

[Psych0dad]

You don't have to be a 4th liner to be in a shutdown role. And also they must be the best 4th line in the league with that kind of production. We should at least be happy we have the best 4th line in the league.

There's no point in making sure Laine scores 50 goals no. Because deep down that is all you care about. So you can go on the mains and brag to his detractors. I have no interest in making sure Laine scores 50 goals. I have an interest in making sure we win games and we are doing that right now.

You do not understand what I say, you think in a different way.

But you are absolutely incorrect about that garbage you just spewed.

I do not allow people, who do not understand what I write, to define my secret hidden motives to me or the public. That is a cop out, attack on character when your arguments are not strong.

You simply can't rationally defend not fixing a flat tire because "hey the car is still moving..." so you start inventing hidden motives, instead of accepting the rational case I have made for fixing it.

I'm the guy who says fix the tire, and you're the guy who says "This killjoy just wants to do stuff to make him look better, let's not fix the tire because of that!" which is not a rational position in the first place....even if I had such hidden motives, it would still be worth fixing from Jets point of view.

Got it?

 

[Daximus]

You do not understand what I say, you think in a different way.

But you are absolutely incorrect about that garbage you just spewed.

I do not allow people, who do not understand what I write, to define my secret hidden motives to me or the public. That is a cop out, attack on character when your arguments are not strong.

You simply can't rationally defend not fixing a flat tire because "hey the car is still moving..." so you start inventing hidden motives, instead of accepting the rational case I have made for fixing it.

I'm the guy who says fix the tire, and you're the guy who says "This killjoy just wants to do stuff to make him look better, let's not fix the tire because of that!" which is not a rational position in the first place....even if I had such hidden motives, it would still be worth fixing from Jets point of view.

Got it?

Yeah but the tire isn't flat. The car is rolling along and we have a full tank of gas and we aren't stopping for piss breaks either.

 

[Psych0dad]

Yeah but the tire isn't flat. The car is rolling along and we have a full tank of gas and we aren't stopping for piss breaks either.

You can deny reality all you want. That line is garbage. Massive black hole for talent to get lost in

 

[JetsFan815]

Some in this thread are beyond being reasoned with

 

[Psych0dad]

Some in this thread are beyond being reasoned with

I know but I still try. I have hope in humanity despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

[Adam da bomb]

You can deny reality all you want. That line is garbage. Massive black hole for talent to get lost in

What I think Dax means is that all the other lines are on fire. We are winning against good teams and have a great record who cares if we get anything from the 2nd line. That the second line will eventually figure it out. To much talent to not eventually click.

 

[JetsFan815]

I know but I still try. I have hope in humanity despite all the evidence to the contrary.

I think you would the one in the "can't be reasoned with" category . Your mind is made up regarding wanting Laine to play with Scheifele and you won't be happy until that happens no matter what.

 

[Saintb]

I enjoyed some of these posters a lot more when they were in the main forums arguing the Mathews Laine debate with Leaf fans.

 

[PhilJets]

In business it's a failure mentality when your business is doing fine and you stop finding ways to improve. Specially if its already blatantly obvious thats its a good bet to make that improvement.

Great boss dont just ride the waves they put extra sails to make it go faster and more efficients.

.....

So lets do it

Hendrick to 2nd line Little to the 4th.
Kidding


Lets keep to the topic.

Patrik Laine is awesome.

 

[Psych0dad]

I think you would the one in the "can't be reasoned with" category . Your mind is made up regarding wanting Laine to play with Scheifele and you won't be happy until that happens no matter what.

You're entitled to your opinion no matter how misguided it might be.

 

[DashingDane]

In business it's a failure mentality when your business is doing fine and you stop finding ways to improve. Specially if its already blatantly obvious thats its a good bet to make that improvement.

Great boss dont just ride the waves they put extra sails to make it go faster and more efficients.

.....

So lets do it

Hendrick to 2nd line Little to the 4th.
Kidding


Lets keep to the topic.

Patrik Laine is awesome.

So you don’t think this team has been improving? They have gradually been getting better through out the season and that includes the 2nd line.. if we want to talk areas that need urgent improvement we should be looking at the pk...

 

[Daximus]

You can deny reality all you want. That line is garbage. Massive black hole for talent to get lost in

which is odd considering they are all talented players. If we want Laine to succeed he has to learn to drive offence on his own. Relying on Scheifele to pad his stats is not the answer to any of our problems.

 

[Gm0ney]

Well these aren't as nice as Harmonica1's but I thought I'd give it a shot. Gifs grabbed from Hokinaittii's YouTube highlights (Hokinaittii)

2017-11-18 - Goal 10 vs. Devils

2017-11-16 - Shootout goal vs. Flyers

2017-11-11 - Goal 9 @ Coyotes

2017-11-10 - Goal 8 @ Golden Knights

2017-11-06 - Goal 7 @ Stars

2017-11-06 - Goal 7 @ Stars, alternate view

I'll post a few more later...

 

[PhilJets]

So you don’t think this team has been improving? They have gradually been getting better through out the season and that includes the 2nd line.. if we want to talk areas that need urgent improvement we should be looking at the pk...

Who said they are not improving. I will be pretty stupid not to think .

I'm commenting on people stating, no change needed since we are winning. There are two kinds of change, for improvement to further elevate your business or in hockey your team. Or change for the heck of it or personal gain, and it produces negative impact to the business.

As combo
Wheeler and Little was proven , 5 years now?
Schiefele and Laine is also proven though small %.


If your a business man, if you are selling 10 breads a day this month. Don't you want to sell 12 breads a day next time?
Or will you be contended to sell just 10 breads a day, because it good already for you.

the 2nd line:
As a whole they have produced I think 2 goals so far 5 on 5? in how many games. When the scoring goes into dry spell, how many games can Helly keep the door shut and provide stellar goaltending of 2 goals or less a game?

What's wrong with trying to improve MORE and believe the team will get EVEN MUCH better? And based it on facts and records, I think some of us, with the same proposal has basis? or no?

PK has improved more so than 2nd line.

Again - in my post. I mentioned the obvious switch by the top 2 C as it is proven already and safer bet.
PK, the coach has been trying to change. Hence different personnel being use.

GO JETS GO!!!