Patrick Roy's last game in Montreal

[vadim sharifijanov]

The fact he was still able to finish in the top 3 of vezina voting would indicate he was still an elite goaltender would it not?

fair enough.

Just look at how Gainey smoothed over the Kovalev situation after the disastrous 2007 season. Kovalev responded with one of the best seasons in his career and followed that up with another pretty good year. I would imagine if we had somebody as experienced and calm as Gainey in 1995 we would have probably kept Roy on the team.

in fact, i think if a guy like gainey had been there in '95, tremblay would have been fired immediately and probably with strong words from the organization chasing him out the door.

but then i am usually pretty quick to start asking out loud why GMs aren't firing their coaches. i was after the detroit game in '95, and i was a few months ago after game 5 against chicago. i probably should have been born a devils fan.

 

[mobilus]

The beautiful irony of the whole thing was that Detroit then had Roy on the front burner ever year in the playoffs.

 

[McRpro]

I was listening to the game on french radio when this happened. My french wasn't the greatest but I could tell something was going on when Roy was pulled. I went to a gas station where a friend of mine was working(french guy and a big Habs fan) and told him that Roy was getting lit up and got pulled after 9 goals. Of course laughter ensued on my end lol.

The funny thing was this friend was telling me beforehand how Roy just seemed like he wasn't very good anymore, that he had lost it so he wasn't surprised or even that upset when he got traded. Hell the Habs got the next great french Canadian goalie for him after all....

 

[KingGallagherXI]

All considering, I don't think Houle did that badly in the trade. He was put in an extremely unfair position by Corey, Tremblay and Roy.

I disagree. The return for the second best goalie of all-time was ridiculously low. He could have sit him, healthy scratch him etc. instead of giving him away, until a team gave him a better offer.

 

[Hasbro]

It's difficult to say. I think a large part of the blame should be placed on Tremblay's shoulders. Yes, Roy has an ego the size of the St. Laurence River, but given his status as a starting goaltender (and one of the top 5 in the world at the time) it should've been a no brainer to simply put up with it. Roy played a huge leadership role in his tenure in Montreal and Colorado. Tremblay was pig headed and stupid to try to reign him in.

Look at some of his contemporaries in net Hasek, Belfour and Brodeur. All of them had some moments of absolute egomania and the first two also left teams on bad terms.

Was Roy right to demand a trade right away? Probably not.

It worked out ok for him.

People keep referring to the deal, that it was so crappy but that's hindsight folks.

When the baloon went up I was sure Deadmarsh was going back the other way. So it was having my cake and eating it too that the deal didn't include him.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I disagree. The return for the second best goalie of all-time was ridiculously low. He could have sit him, healthy scratch him etc. instead of giving him away, until a team gave him a better offer.

Again...hindsight is always 20/20


Trading Roy was a huge mistake period but the actual trade was not one of the worst.

Chelios/Savard was worse to me by far.
Traded one of the d-men in the last 20 years for Savard who played 3 partial seasons and then left for nothing as a UFA.
At least with the Roy deal we turned Thibeault into Hackett and Kovalenko into Scott Thornton.
Of course we then gave Thornton away for Juha Lind but we ended up with Donald Audette and Shaun Van Allen for Rucinsky and Hackett eventually turned into Sunstrum and a 3rd in '04 which if I'm not mistaken turned into Emelin.

Either way, the domino's are still falling from the Roy trade overall. The Chelios trade was completely done and gone after 3 years.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Again...hindsight is always 20/20


Trading Roy was a huge mistake period but the actual trade was not one of the worst.

Chelios/Savard was worse to me by far.
Traded one of the d-men in the last 20 years for Savard who played 3 partial seasons and then left for nothing as a UFA.
At least with the Roy deal we turned Thibeault into Hackett and Kovalenko into Scott Thornton.
Of course we then gave Thornton away for Juha Lind but we ended up with Donald Audette and Shaun Van Allen for Rucinsky and Hackett eventually turned into Sunstrum and a 3rd in '04 which if I'm not mistaken turned into Emelin.

Either way, the domino's are still falling from the Roy trade overall. The Chelios trade was completely done and gone after 3 years.

value for value, chelios for savard is indeed the worst.

you could argue that roy for thibault and those other guys was no worse, value wise, than recchi for desjardins, leclair, and dionne.

that said, the roy trade may be the most catastrophic for a franchise that i have ever seen. on and off the ice.


i stand by what i said upthread, though. everyone i knew, as well as the media as far as i recall, was very surprised that so little came back for roy, even with thibault being the most highly regarded goaltending prospect since jimmy waite. there was just so much elite talent to be had from the avs, and they gave up mats sundin to get wendel clark the year before so there was a precedent for overpaying too.

 

[Rhiessan71]

value for value, chelios for savard is indeed the worst.

you could argue that roy for thibault and those other guys was no worse, value wise, than recchi for desjardins, leclair, and dionne.

that said, the roy trade may be the most catastrophic for a franchise that i have ever seen. on and off the ice.


i stand by what i said upthread, though. everyone i knew, as well as the media as far as i recall, was very surprised that so little came back for roy, even with thibault being the most highly regarded goaltending prospect since jimmy waite. there was just so much elite talent to be had from the avs, and they gave up mats sundin to get wendel clark the year before so there was a precedent for overpaying too.

You know though, looking at history, goalie trades never seem to go well no matter how even or sometimes even how uneven they look at the time.

Oh and believe me, I'm not defending the trade, I hated every second of it but the trade itself wasn't the worst ever.
I mean seriously, there's no way the Habs would of ever gotten full value for Roy. You just can't replace what Roy meant to the team, the city and the province.

 

[HabsByTheBay]

This is all Ron Corey's fault, he systematically ran off every star the Habs had from Chelios to Damphousse for not being what he thought a superstar should act like, which is Jean Beliveau.

I love Beliveau, but if ever there was an unrealistic standard...the guy is basically a saint.

Anyway I was 10 when this happened, Roy was my hero and yeah, catastrophic. I still feel like a huge part of the franchise died that night.

 

[ozzie]

I'll be honest, I am not a big Roy fan. While I can respect his talent, his career and his skills, I just cannot be a fan.

I never forget his snub of Brodeur at the Olympics in 98. I never forget how he felt he was entitled to backstop Canada when not showing up for Canada Cup/World cup play. He really bugged me, but he could play, he was an elite game changing talent.

I always felt Roy wanted out of Montreal by that time. 93 was a huge win and really unexpected I think.

The whole NHL began to change, big salaries, shifting in power. I think Roy took an easy way out, he used the situation to leave more then anything else. He left still being a hero. He made it look liked he took the High road.

He saw the future of the Canadiens, and it wasn't a winning future.

Best move Roy ever did.

And yes I believe he stopped caring in the game and didn't give it his all. He stayed and net and got more upset.

You don't treat a legend like that. Much as I hate him, me made the best move of his life and was going to either Colorado and Detroit.

As a Wings fan I think he would have grown on me ;p. Instead I hated him even more.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

You know though, looking at history, goalie trades never seem to go well no matter how even or sometimes even how uneven they look at the time.

Oh and believe me, I'm not defending the trade, I hated every second of it but the trade itself wasn't the worst ever.
I mean seriously, there's no way the Habs would of ever gotten full value for Roy. You just can't replace what Roy meant to the team, the city and the province.

that's very true. the only major goalie trade i can think of that worked out well for the team giving up the goalie is moog for ranford/courtnall.

i guess to varying degrees, the first three fuhr trades can be said to be successes. but even if he still had some decent to good play in him each time, fuhr was post-prime.

but with roy, i guess you can point to major goalie trades generally being a bad idea (barrasso for bodger, cujo for mid-first round picks, belfour for garbage, e.g.) and historically being unfavorable to the team that trades the goalie. but on the other hand, roy wasn't just any star goalie. there was no precedent for a guy like him being available.

a two-time conn smythe winner, a guy who was already a sure hall of famer, three time vezina winner, a player of that calibre comes on the open market once in a lifetime. like gretzky in '88, lindros in '92, it was a completely exceptional situation. or at least that was the way i saw it at the time. sather/pocklington failed, partly because of financial necessities. lacroix succeeded, because he was very patient and did a great job of pitting GMs against each other and driving up the price. houle failed because he did the exact opposite of what lacroix did.

 

[Devils Mike*]

A classic example of a player being a total baby. People don't include that part of a player, a amazing goalie but would leave the team in an instant if things went wrong. That's why I'd rather have Brodeur any day of the week

 

[therealkoho]

Far too often Patrick Roy put himself ahead of the team, he was churlish to some of his team-mates at least the ones he deemed expendable and unimportant to the teams fortunes. He showed contempt for most of his pro-coaches and was apparently the reason for Crawford's departure He's said to have really earned the derisive nickname "FIGJAM" given to him by opponents and some team-mates alike.

Skilled as a goaltender for sure, not so skilled as a human being

 

[Roomtemperature]

I'll be honest, I am not a big Roy fan. While I can respect his talent, his career and his skills, I just cannot be a fan.

I never forget his snub of Brodeur at the Olympics in 98. I never forget how he felt he was entitled to backstop Canada when not showing up for Canada Cup/World cup play. He really bugged me, but he could play, he was an elite game changing talent.

I always felt Roy wanted out of Montreal by that time. 93 was a huge win and really unexpected I think.

The whole NHL began to change, big salaries, shifting in power. I think Roy took an easy way out, he used the situation to leave more then anything else. He left still being a hero. He made it look liked he took the High road.

He saw the future of the Canadiens, and it wasn't a winning future.

Best move Roy ever did.

And yes I believe he stopped caring in the game and didn't give it his all. He stayed and net and got more upset.

You don't treat a legend like that. Much as I hate him, me made the best move of his life and was going to either Colorado and Detroit.

As a Wings fan I think he would have grown on me ;p. Instead I hated him even more.

So he LeBron'd it. Quit on in his last game and left the team. Hell it seems like Roy did it worse then LeBron but you know those Canadians protecting Canadiens

 

[Rhiessan71]

So he LeBron'd it. Quit on in his last game and left the team. Hell it seems like Roy did it worse then LeBron but you know those Canadians protecting Canadiens

Not at all. It's not like Roy went blameless in the whole thing either.
It's just easier after all this time to forgive Roy's one mistake and how much of a mistake was it really? Roy and the team are having a bad night and he got left to the wolves by Tremblay, a grossly inexperienced coach that didn't get along with Roy in the slightest long before he got the job. You can kinda understand if Roy wanted out. Last straw anyone?
Comparing Roy one mistake to the immense pile of them that were made by Houle, Tremblay and Corey, forgiving Roy is not that hard.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

last time i checked, lebron wasn't publicly humiliated by his coach and fanbase, with no support from his owner or GM. and the cleveland cavaliers aren't the most storied franchise in NBA history.

seriously, the best NBA parallel to roy among guys whose careers overlapped with his is jordan. regarded as the most "clutch" playoff performer of his era, more playoff MVPs than anyone in the history of the sport, consummate winner.

also, both had a self-imposed exile in between successful runs (roy telling ronald corey had had played his last game in a habs uniform, jordan playing baseball). and both had their share of controversy that suggested their behaviour away from the game was hardly saintly (roy with the domestic abuse charges, jordan with the gambling problem).

and, more importantly, both were hyper-competitive freaks who were by many accounts not guys you would want to be around. both were so consumed by their competitiveness that they were by nature terrible teammates who had to actively try to improve so as not to sabotage their teams, and thus their chances at winning championships. but their competitiveness, their pride, their egoes are also what made both of them arguably the greatest of all time at what they did.

 

[BenchBrawl]

So what if Roy put himself before the team, when the team was going in a ****** direction anyway.Roy was worth more than all the players , GM , coaches of the MTL canadiens combine at the time.

 

[Nails Jenkins]

Not at all. It's not like Roy went blameless in the whole thing either.
It's just easier after all this time to forgive Roy's one mistake and how much of a mistake was it really? Roy and the team are having a bad night and he got left to the wolves by Tremblay, a grossly inexperienced coach that didn't get along with Roy in the slightest long before he got the job. You can kinda understand if Roy wanted out. Last straw anyone?
Comparing Roy one mistake to the immense pile of them that were made by Houle, Tremblay and Corey, forgiving Roy is not that hard.

Right on. Roy certainly had an ego, but it was Tremblay's job as the coach to manage his players, and he failed miserably at doing so. He let his (almost equally enormous ego) get in the way. What ensued was a power struggle between an expendable asset and and one that the Habs really couldn't part with. Unfortunately, management confused which one was which. As has been discussed thoroughly, the blame goes up the chain of command. Inexperienced coach, inexperienced GM, bonehead who hired them both. Everyone played their part.

Despite Thibault's pedigree and Kovalenko's raw ability, everyone knew this was a terrible deal at the time. The real crime is that Mike Keane was thrown in as well. On top of him being a quality 3rd line player he was also the Canadiens captain at the time.

Not only did I see boyhood idol traded away that day, I also unwittingly witnessed the dawn of the darkest decade of Canadiens history, certainly in modern times, if not all-time

The beautiful irony of the whole thing was that Detroit then had Roy on the front burner ever year in the playoffs.

I heard Scotty Bowman reflecting on that night and the days that followed as he realized that the shellacking that his team just laid on the Habs could very well hamper them for years to come. Sure created a great rivalry though.

 

[nik jr]

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Right on. Roy certainly had an ego, but it was Tremblay's job as the coach to manage his players, and he failed miserably at doing so. He let his (almost equally enormous ego) get in the way. What ensued was a power struggle between an expendable asset and and one that the Habs really couldn't part with. Unfortunately, management confused which one was which. As has been discussed thoroughly, the blame goes up the chain of command. Inexperienced coach, inexperienced GM, bonehead who hired them both. Everyone played their part.

Despite Thibault's pedigree and Kovalenko's raw ability, everyone knew this was a terrible deal at the time. The real crime is that Mike Keane was thrown in as well. On top of him being a quality 3rd line player he was also the Canadiens captain at the time.

Not only did I see boyhood idol traded away that day, I also unwittingly witnessed the dawn of the darkest decade of Canadiens history, certainly in modern times, if not all-time



I heard Scotty Bowman reflecting on that night and the days that followed as he realized that the shellacking that his team just laid on the Habs could very well hamper them for years to come. Sure created a great rivalry though.

wow, i can't believe this is the first mention of mike keane in this thread. i guess i am guilty of forgetting about him too.

i remember an analyst the day of the trade said something like, "and on top of everything else, they gave away one of their few heart and soul role players so they can have a french captain. they'll come to regret that too."

 

[Rhiessan71]

wow, i can't believe this is the first mention of mike keane in this thread. i guess i am guilty of forgetting about him too.

i remember an analyst the day of the trade said something like, "and on top of everything else, they gave away one of their few heart and soul role players so they can have a french captain. they'll come to regret that too."

Yep, Mike Keane...not bad for a guy that was basically a walk on.

Just another reason to block that trade from memory

 

[Habsfunk]

To me what makes the trade so bad is that Houle threw in Mike Keane. It's one thing to trade away one of the best goalies ever, it's another to give away your captain and a heart and soul guy along with him - especially when the return already isn't enough.

Also, I've always thought that Pierre Turgeon, Craig Conroy and Rory Fitzpatrick for Shayne Corson and Murray Baron was a worse trade.

 

[double5son10]

"Corey is someone I would very like to punch multiple times in the face without any pity."

Boy, you said it. To me the blame is squarely on Ronald Corey. To have hired Tremblay when Tremblay had been one of the leading critics of Roy in the Montreal media was just asking for trouble. Tremblay and Roy had been roommates in '86, and apparently had not endeared themselves to one another. To have overlooked the history between the two was asinine.

Corey was quick to jettison players he thought were reflecting bad on the organization, which at the time was part of the decision-making that went into the Chelios for Savard deal, led to Guy Carbonneau being traded for a career minor-leaguer, and of course the Roy/Keane deal. Remember that Keane had raised the ire of the French language press for saying he didn't see the need to learn French when he was named Captain of the Canadiens. That apparently was too much for a PR obsessed fool like Corey.

As a Habs fan living in Colorado, I can remember thinking at the time what a steal the Avalanche made in that deal. For a HOF goalie in Roy and a great PKer and locker room leader in Keane the Canadiens got a trio who were identified as having "potential." None of those guys were a proven commodity. I'm not sure I would've traded Keane straight-up for any of them, let alone the whole awful deal (and don't get me wrong, I thought Rucinsky turned into a solid pro). Sorry for those that say the trade looks worse in hindsight. It looked awful then as well.

 

[Adityase]

wow, i can't believe this is the first mention of mike keane in this thread. i guess i am guilty of forgetting about him too.

i remember an analyst the day of the trade said something like, "and on top of everything else, they gave away one of their few heart and soul role players so they can have a french captain. they'll come to regret that too."

Mentioned earlier.

 

[Peter9]

Corey, Houle and Tremblay were idiots--to put it more charitably, in well over their heads--and are largely responsible for reducing the Canadiens to a shambles. Roy was a prima donna. But his personality is no doubt part of what made him great. The sins of the first three were far greater, but I cannot forgive Roy. A fan always puts his team first and expects the players on the team he/she supports to do likewise. Roy didn't do that. I gritted my teeth a bit when he appeared at the Canadiens' centennial celebration, although I recognize an adult me would welcome the rapprochement. The Roy debacle went a long way to sinking the Canadiens, and its effects are still felt. By the way, in response to one comment above, I think Roy would be a disaster as coach of the Canadiens, and I pray it never happens.

As for big goaltending trades going wrong, surely the most well-known is the Wings trade of Terry Sawchuk to the Bruins although Sawchuk had a GAA of under 2.00 and was an all-star selection in each of his five seasons with the Wings. Glenn Hall replaced Sawchuk, who had some kind of a physical and mental breakdown in midseason of his second year in Boston and announced his retirement from the game. After only two seasons with the Wings, in which he won the Calder, posted GAAs of a little over 2.00 and was an all-star selection both years, Hall was shifted to the Hawks. Sawchuk returned to the Wings but was never the same for them, although he did have some good performances much later on with both the Wings and the Leafs. Hall, of course, went on to shine for both the Hawks and the Blues. What a debacle.