Patrick Kane vs Auston Matthews

[wetcoast]

Team success means little when rating a specific player. I go more 50/50 regular season and playoffs when judging. But Personal success. Not team. Gretzky could have played on mediocre teams, put up record numbers, huge numbers in the playoffs and he would still be the best player ever even if he never won a cup. The player does not build the team

That's fair so in a scale of 1 to 100 for individual playoff success and Kane is say a 100 what does that make Matthews then?

 

[x Tame Impala]

That's fair so in a scale of 1 to 100 for individual playoff success and Kane is say a 100 what does that make Matthews then?

You didn’t respond to my post and that makes me sad

 

[McVespa99]

That's fair so in a scale of 1 to 100 for individual playoff success and Kane is say a 100 what does that make Matthews then?

50? 60? He has put up something around .8 ppg in the playoffs which is not abysmal but frankly I expect more from someone that many tout as the potential best goal scorer ever. While I dont judge him by team success I do look at his teammates and whether the team has other scorers to help with his numbers.

 

[wetcoast]

You didn’t respond to my post and that makes me sad

I'm working my ass off this weekend and not really a phone typer but I'll have a more detailed response later today or tomorrow.

 

[MichaelFarrell]

Much different players in playing in much different eras in terms of scoring. Both guys have had a huge impact on the game so it’s hard to say.

It’s funny. You could argue that prime Kane and Toews individually are not as good as Matthews and Marner, but there is no chance I’m taking Marner and Matthews over Toews and Kane.

Individual stats are overrated at the end of the day.

 

[pcruz]

Much different players in playing in much different eras in terms of scoring. Both guys have had a huge impact on the game so it’s hard to say.

It’s funny. You could argue that prime Kane and Toews individually are not as good as Matthews and Marner, but there is no chance I’m taking Marner and Matthews over Toews and Kane.

Individual stats are overrated at the end of the day.

One could make a very compelling argument that Hjalmarson would have been the #1 defenseman in Toronto these past 8 seasons.
I wonder where Keith and Seabrook would rank amongst Leafs defensemen......


Trashing an individual player for lack of team success in team sports is a sign of a lack of ability to reason.

 

[MichaelFarrell]

One could make a very compelling argument that Hjalmarson would have been the #1 defenseman in Toronto these past 8 seasons.
I wonder where Keith and Seabrook would rank amongst Leafs defensemen......


Trashing an individual player for lack of team success in team sports is a sign of a lack of ability to reason.

I think you are wrong. This Blackhawks teams did not have the traditional depth at forward that the Leafs have and have had.

If you were to go down a list of the players on each team. On paper, as individual players, I think most people would take the Maple Leafs roster.

Let’s take a look:

2013 Blackhawks	2023 Maple Leafs
Bickell-Toews-Kane	Knies-Matthews-Nylander
Sharp-Handzus-Hossa	Jarnkrok-Tavares-Marner
Saad-Shaw-Stalberg	Bunting-O'Reilly-Acciari
Kruger-Bolland-Frolik	Lafferty-Kampf-Kerfoot
Keith-Seabrook	Reilly-Schenn
Hjarlmarrson-Oduya	McCabe-Brodie
Leddy-Rosival	Giordano-Lilegren
Crawford-Emery	Samsonov-Woll

The Blackhawks were greater than the sum of their parts. Keith and Seabrook were a great pair and clearly the better D goes to Chicago. But, on paper, that Toronto team is incredible.

In a thought experiment, would I rather have Patrick Kane on that Toronto Maple Leafs team than Matthews on that Chicago team? Yes. He was an absolute legend in the playoffs and proved it a ton of time. By that logic, I am going with Patrick Kane.

 

[I am not exposed]

Considering we're talking about better player and not better legacy here, I do think Matthews is already close to, if not already a better player than Kane.

The Ross and Smythe are probably better than 2 Richards, but they both have a Hart and a Lindsay and it's possible Matthews will get another one of those this year. Obviously Kane has had way more playoff success but their point totals are pretty similar in ppg, just not so much in GP and success. Kane has hit over 100 points twice in his career, so has Matthews.

Matthews is much younger, and I think he's likely to have a better career than Kane statistically which I think is what matters. He's already 14th on the US goal scoring list. Individually I think he's a much better player than Kane is. People can talk about playoffs and the clutch factor and cups and intangibles but I'll take stats over that any day.

Still very possible that Kane is overall better, but I think the chance is low.

Well said. My sentiment as well.

 

[pcruz]

I think you are wrong. This Blackhawks teams did not have the traditional depth at forward that the Leafs have and have had.

If you were to go down a list of the players on each team. On paper, as individual players, I think most people would take the Maple Leafs roster.

Let’s take a look:

2013 Blackhawks	2023 Maple Leafs
Bickell-Toews-Kane	Knies-Matthews-Nylander
Sharp-Handzus-Hossa	Jarnkrok-Tavares-Marner
Saad-Shaw-Stalberg	Bunting-O'Reilly-Acciari
Kruger-Bolland-Frolik	Lafferty-Kampf-Kerfoot
Keith-Seabrook	Reilly-Schenn
Hjarlmarrson-Oduya	McCabe-Brodie
Leddy-Rosival	Giordano-Lilegren
Crawford-Emery	Samsonov-Woll

The Blackhawks were greater than the sum of their parts. Keith and Seabrook were a great pair and clearly the better D goes to Chicago. But, on paper, that Toronto team is incredible.

In a thought experiment, would I rather have Patrick Kane on that Toronto Maple Leafs team than Matthews on that Chicago team? Yes. He was an absolute legend in the playoffs and proved it a ton of time. By that logic, I am going with Patrick Kane.

You're doing the exact same thing every executive has done in Toronto thus far:

You're thinking that the better collection of offensive players is superior.

What you are ignoring, is situational team composition, and player synergies.


Often, the team that wins the special teams mini-series comes out ahead in the actual series.

Often, the team that wins the goaltending head to head is the winner.


Samsonov and Woll is quite a step down from Crawford. Not that he was Roy incarnate, but Samsonov is good for 1-2 bad goals per game and Woll is made of tissue paper.



As for special teams, having Kieth as the point man on the power play is a triple upgrade over Rielly.

1- he was a better skater and distributor, better defensively, and just a much improved player compared to Morgan.

2- he had a threatening shot from the point.

3- because his shot from the point actually scared opponents, the opposing penalty kill couldn't afford to cheat down low into a very tight box (therefore suffocating the 4 forwards in a 4on4 situation below the hash marks), this had the effect of spreading the defenders in the zone and gave the creative forwards more time and space.


I don't understand why it's been so difficult for Leafs management to notice this glaring deficiency in their game.

It's been pointed out for 5 years now and has only half-heartedly been addressed - that was the ENTIRE POINT of signing Klingberg.


Honestly, Sid developed his face-offs one off season, then his scoring another summer.

Matthews has worked on small areas of his game every summer and come to camp with something significantly improved.

Why the hell hasn't Morgan spent an entire summer just taking slap-shots with stiffer sticks, whippier sticks, varying blades, etc, in order to be actually useful in the power play........


Anyway, rant over.


Just because Chicago had more team success, doesn't mean Kane was a better overall player than Matthews.

Auston trails Kane by 100 goals. He has played 700 less games.
Despite the much stronger team around him, Kane is barely a + player for his career, whereas Matthews has been a - player once. Yeah yeah, plus minus is kind of dumb, but it does show a definitive trend.

This trend is inevitably reinforced by Kane topping out in Selke voting at 25th (the one and only time he had any votes), and Matthews perennially receiving Selke votes with top 3 finish this year.

Then, one has to go to strength of position.
One player plays in the middle and one ond the wing.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Much different players in playing in much different eras in terms of scoring. Both guys have had a huge impact on the game so it’s hard to say.

It’s funny. You could argue that prime Kane and Toews individually are not as good as Matthews and Marner, but there is no chance I’m taking Marner and Matthews over Toews and Kane.

Individual stats are overrated at the end of the day.

Are we forgetting Kane swept the Hart/Art Ross/Lindsay and was second in goals that season to the actual GOAT?

 

[Dead Coyote]

I think you are wrong. This Blackhawks teams did not have the traditional depth at forward that the Leafs have and have had.

If you were to go down a list of the players on each team. On paper, as individual players, I think most people would take the Maple Leafs roster.

Let’s take a look:

2013 Blackhawks	2023 Maple Leafs
Bickell-Toews-Kane	Knies-Matthews-Nylander
Sharp-Handzus-Hossa	Jarnkrok-Tavares-Marner
Saad-Shaw-Stalberg	Bunting-O'Reilly-Acciari
Kruger-Bolland-Frolik	Lafferty-Kampf-Kerfoot
Keith-Seabrook	Reilly-Schenn
Hjarlmarrson-Oduya	McCabe-Brodie
Leddy-Rosival	Giordano-Lilegren
Crawford-Emery	Samsonov-Woll

The Blackhawks were greater than the sum of their parts. Keith and Seabrook were a great pair and clearly the better D goes to Chicago. But, on paper, that Toronto team is incredible.

In a thought experiment, would I rather have Patrick Kane on that Toronto Maple Leafs team than Matthews on that Chicago team? Yes. He was an absolute legend in the playoffs and proved it a ton of time. By that logic, I am going with Patrick Kane.

I'm a Leafs hater but I'm not sure how you could possibly have this opinion.

Kane and Toews are roughly equivalent to Matthews and Nylander. Matthews is probably better than both Kane and Toews offensively but Toews was no slouch and very good defensively. Nylander and Kane are pretty much a wash, Nylander might be better defensively.

More importantly Sharp, Handzus and Hossa was an excellent second line. Sharp and Hossa were near PPG players at that time and all 3 on that line were excellent defensively. Handzus clicked with the 2nd line really well, he was a depth trade but he was a great PKer and faceoff guy, and he put up good points playing on the 2nd line.

I might also add that's the year that Bryan Bickell and Patrick Sharp both went beast mode in the playoffs, nearly a ppg.

Were Bickell and Handzus great players? No. They turned it on during the playoffs though, and at that point in their careers they were better than Jarnkrok and Knies. Pretty sure also that O'Rielly and Bunting played on the top 6 more.

Saad and Stalberg were both pretty good depth scoring, and that 4th line of Kruger - Bolland - Frolik was probably one of, if not the best 4th lines in the league. They had so many good PKers, it was insane. They only gave up 5 PP goals that entire run. They had a 90% PK percentage.

Their defense was also incredible. Almost all of their forwards were good defensively, and Keith, Seabrook and Hjalmarsson were obviously really good. Oduya was also pretty good that year IIRC.

The Leafs don't have anyone on Hjalmarsson's level defensively, let alone a player like Keith or Seabrook. And they *really* don't have a forward core like the Hawks did and never have.

Yeah, they arguably should score more, but Crawford had a 1.84 GAA and a 932 save % that playoffs. The Leafs have never had that level of defense, and while the forwards for the Leafs are probably better at scoring hypothetically, it doesn't make up for the difference in defense and goaltending the team had.

And also, that's arguably the best Leafs team in years and one of the worst individually for the Hawks.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Prime Kane scored over 100 points in a season in a year where nobody else even scored 90. He has a Hart, Ross and Lindsay and still a higher points season than Matthews.

Matthews constantly gets to play with guys who pace for over 100 points and consistently comes up short he is the main reason for the Leafs playoff struggles because he cannot handle the much tougher playoff environment.

Leafs absolutely do much better in the playoffs the last 7-8 years or so with Patrick Kane

Nylander played all 82 games this year and didn't reach 100 points. Marner has paced for 100 points before but never gotten there. Out of the 3, Matthews is the best overall player in the playoffs for us and is definitely not the main reason we don't win there.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Nylander played all 82 games this year and didn't reach 100 points. Marner has paced for 100 points before but never gotten there. Out of the 3, Matthews is the best overall player in the playoffs for us and is definitely not the main reason we don't win there.

Matthews might be the best regular season player on the Leafs but his steep decline once the playoffs begin is a large reason why they've had no success.

I mean it isn't like Ovechkin in his peak that while putting up big numbers the Capitals just couldn't get over the hump...Matthews just isn't producing.


0 goals and 0 points in game 7 against Bruins.

0 goals and 0 points in game 7 against the Bruins.

0 goals and 0 points in game 5 against the Blue Jackets

0 goals and 1 assist in game 7 against the Canadiens (but this point was when it was 3-0 with under 2 minutes left)

0 goals, 1 assist in game 7 against the Lightning.

0 goals the entire series against the Panthers

0 goals 1 assist in game 7 against the Bruins.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Matthews might be the best regular season player on the Leafs but his steep decline once the playoffs begin is a large reason why they've had no success.

I mean it isn't like Ovechkin in his peak that while putting up big numbers the Capitals just couldn't get over the hump...Matthews just isn't producing.


0 goals and 0 points in game 7 against Bruins.

0 goals and 0 points in game 7 against the Bruins.

0 goals and 0 points in game 5 against the Blue Jackets

0 goals and 1 assist in game 7 against the Canadiens (but this point was when it was 3-0 with under 2 minutes left)

0 goals, 1 assist in game 7 against the Lightning.

0 goals the entire series against the Panthers

0 goals 1 assist in game 7 against the Bruins.

He's not producing at a 100+ point pace like you'd hope in then playoffs but out of the forwards he is generally the best on the team in the playoffs. If Kane swaps places with Matthews the Leafs probably fare about the same unless they get prime Toews to take the matchups against the other top line and shutdown pairs.

 

[Buck Naked]

He's not producing at a 100+ point pace like you'd hope in then playoffs but out of the forwards he is generally the best on the team in the playoffs. If Kane swaps places with Matthews the Leafs probably fare about the same unless they get prime Toews to take the matchups against the other top line and shutdown pairs.

That would be Nylander.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

He's not producing at a 100+ point pace like you'd hope in then playoffs but out of the forwards he is generally the best on the team in the playoffs. If Kane swaps places with Matthews the Leafs probably fare about the same unless they get prime Toews to take the matchups against the other top line and shutdown pairs.

Lol, nope.. Kane's best seasons started in 14-15 when Toews' decline started..if anything Kane was being held back offensively but it about winning cups.

Matthews goes from someone who scores 60+ and 100 points in the RS to a 30ish goal 70ish point pace guy in the playoffs who is invisible at the end of series.

I'm curious let's compare that to Kane.

08-09 regular season

80 GP 25 G 45 A for 70 points.

In the playoffs

16 GP 9 G 5 A for 14 points... Which works out to 46 goals and 72 points over 82 games.

09-10 regular season.

82 GP 30 G 58 A for 88 points.

In the playoffs

22 GP 10 G 18 A for 28 points... working out to 37 goals and 104 points.

You put a peak/prime Kane on these Leafs and they are winning more than 1 round in 8 seasons or whatever it has been

 

[wetcoast]

One could make a very compelling argument that Hjalmarson would have been the #1 defenseman in Toronto these past 8 seasons.
I wonder where Keith and Seabrook would rank amongst Leafs defensemen......


Trashing an individual player for lack of team success in team sports is a sign of a lack of ability to reason.

I agree with this except for the last sentence, it simply isn't needed here.

 

[wetcoast]

Matthews might be the best regular season player on the Leafs but his steep decline once the playoffs begin is a large reason why they've had no success.

I mean it isn't like Ovechkin in his peak that while putting up big numbers the Capitals just couldn't get over the hump...Matthews just isn't producing.


0 goals and 0 points in game 7 against Bruins.

0 goals and 0 points in game 7 against the Bruins.

0 goals and 0 points in game 5 against the Blue Jackets

0 goals and 1 assist in game 7 against the Canadiens (but this point was when it was 3-0 with under 2 minutes left)

0 goals, 1 assist in game 7 against the Lightning.

0 goals the entire series against the Panthers

0 goals 1 assist in game 7 against the Bruins.

This is micro anyaslsis at it's best here, all series are 7 games and Kane wasn't exactly lights out every game either.

The bottom line is that Kane's supporting cast allowed him to get past his off games to go deeper and get more "clutch" points.

While I have Kane significantly better in the playoffs it's not like Kane is a 100 to Matthews 50 or 60 suggested upthread that's just not logical.

AM generally does okay in the playoffs with one poor year when he was 20.

kane was better sure but his supporting cast was also way better and he didn't have to be the best guy every series for the Black Hawks to advance.

 

[wetcoast]

I think you are wrong. This Blackhawks teams did not have the traditional depth at forward that the Leafs have and have had.

If you were to go down a list of the players on each team. On paper, as individual players, I think most people would take the Maple Leafs roster.

Let’s take a look:

2013 Blackhawks	2023 Maple Leafs
Bickell-Toews-Kane	Knies-Matthews-Nylander
Sharp-Handzus-Hossa	Jarnkrok-Tavares-Marner
Saad-Shaw-Stalberg	Bunting-O'Reilly-Acciari
Kruger-Bolland-Frolik	Lafferty-Kampf-Kerfoot
Keith-Seabrook	Reilly-Schenn
Hjarlmarrson-Oduya	McCabe-Brodie
Leddy-Rosival	Giordano-Lilegren
Crawford-Emery	Samsonov-Woll

The Blackhawks were greater than the sum of their parts. Keith and Seabrook were a great pair and clearly the better D goes to Chicago. But, on paper, that Toronto team is incredible.

In a thought experiment, would I rather have Patrick Kane on that Toronto Maple Leafs team than Matthews on that Chicago team? Yes. He was an absolute legend in the playoffs and proved it a ton of time. By that logic, I am going with Patrick Kane.

I think when one looks at both teams the Black Hawks back end absolutely destroys the Leafs and their group of forwards is a push at best and most people would take the black Hawks squad easily.

After all the Black Hawks in 13 won the president's trophy right?

 

[wetcoast]

1) Your weight is off. The regular season exists to separate and organize teams for the playoffs, the point of playing professional sports is to win Championships. The regular season is for fan entertainment and to make money for players and the league. The real season starts in April.

The weighting is a personal choice and it makes sense and what is your actual weighting?

In the playoffs things like small smapole size, running into a hot goalie, havong your goaie crap out, an injury like Tavares in game one and different matchups for different teams make for a very unven comparisson and baseline.

The regular season is amore even and fair baseline for all players and it's not even really debatable is it?

2) Teams advance in the playoffs yes, but since Matthews entered the league the Leafs are 3rd in the league in total points over the last 8 seasons. Matthews isn't on an island out there dragging a plucky team to the post season every season. He's a superstar player on a good to very good team.

Look everyone knows the Leafs have under performed and most people also know why.

Team construction is outside of any players controle and it's not like the Leafs have played bad team or not run into good goalies.

Teams advance in the playoffs, but Matthews cap % he takes up demands that he bears a proportional weight of responsibility to produce when the games matter the most and he routinely does not do this at an elite level. The team he is on suffers from his lackluster play and he plays a proportional part in why his team hasn't won more than a single game in the 2nd round.

His contract has nothing to do with it unless you magically think that him taking a lesser contract would somehow land a great UFA (who is never there anyways) on the back end to suddenly sign with the Leafs.

Here is the list of the upcoming RFA's and UFA's and don't forget the good UFA's often come overpriced which really negates tour AM contract stuff.

3) I don't understand how a North American sports fan could possibly NOT give "credence to playoffs" but to answer your 2 questions...

Who said anything about not giving credence to the playoffs?

I just don't conflate team success with individual players success.

For example if Ovechkin had never won a SC his career value wouldn't be any different for me nor should it.

Same with the current Oilers duo, all 3 players should be judged by what they as players did not their teams.

-It's done consistently for every comparison of similar caliber players, yes. We're comparing two guys who could be potentially considered as the greatest american players of all time. We're not comparing Patrick Kane and Nick Abruzzese here.

Agreed not even sure why you are mentioning this though.

This is a common argument and not as clever as people think it is. "Oh so Pat Maroon is a better player than Matthews then since he won 3 Cups!?" etc...It's intellectually lazy. You have to compare players based on the caliber of talent and effectiveness they've shown over their career. So comparing Kane's Stanley Cup successes and overall playoff resume is absolutely relevant if someone is going to suggest Matthews to be the greatest american player ever.

Once again the black Hawks won 3 SC's Kane was part of that and where is the equivalent Keith, Toews, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson...ect?

I really think people are being lazy by not comparing the 2 teams construction here.

Take the Leafs in 21-22 losing to the 2 time SC champions in TB, who BTW would go on to the SC finals again.

AM did his part but I guess it's somehow his fault that Jack Campbell had a .897 save %?

If one goes back to the last 2 games of that TB series AM drove play at an elite rate and scored a goal in one game and had an assist on the only Leaf goal in the final game, it wasn't a choke job in reality but it's Matthews so the false narrative persists.

-Why on earth would we be comparing O6 players to the modern NHL with championships? Again, we're talking about Patrick Kane and Auston Matthews who are playing in a 30, 31, and 32 team league over their careers.

I'm talking about in general how players get evaluated all time in hockey and in other sports, too much emphasis is put on winning, sure it's important but weighing the playoffs any higher than 25% is just unfair and not really a good way to go about it.

The larger 82 game sample is more telling than say at most a 20ish game one.

Sure winning does matter and that's why I give it 25% even when for most players even in their prime less than 20% of their games are in the playoffs

If Matthews was better his team would have better playoff results. He is a huge part of his team and his lack of effectiveness along with his high cap hit regularly weigh his team down in the playoffs. This is such a weak-minded mentality as well.

This is lazy, if Matthews had better teams and luck they would have advanced most years is the more correct answer.

It's not like Kane was some monster force that stood out on those Black Hawk teams they had a real team effort with alot of forwards contributing and a great back end with Keith leading the way.

 

[wetcoast]

50? 60? He has put up something around .8 ppg in the playoffs which is not abysmal but frankly I expect more from someone that many tout as the potential best goal scorer ever. While I dont judge him by team success I do look at his teammates and whether the team has other scorers to help with his numbers.

First of all going 50/50 for regular season and playoffs is kind of wacky don't you think?

And secondly if Kane is a 100 there is no way AM is only a 50 or 60, it's not like Kane was regularly racking up huge points in the playoffs either.

Kane in the playoffs with the Black Hawks through age 31 has a line of 136-52-80-132 and it's not like he was bring anything else to the table besides his offense.

Even if one think that AM's 2 way game is over rated it's more like a 100 to Kane's 50-60 at best.

Look I'm critical of AM not "getting it done" but I also realize that sometimes luck, team construction and running into better teams built for the playoffs happen.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

This is micro anyaslsis at it's best here, all series are 7 games and Kane wasn't exactly lights out every game either.

The bottom line is that Kane's supporting cast allowed him to get past his off games to go deeper and get more "clutch" points.

While I have Kane significantly better in the playoffs it's not like Kane is a 100 to Matthews 50 or 60 suggested upthread that's just not logical.

AM generally does okay in the playoffs with one poor year when he was 20.

kane was better sure but his supporting cast was also way better and he didn't have to be the best guy every series for the Black Hawks to advance.

If we are being fair to Kane and agreeing he a 100 in the playoffs then yeah I can't see Matthews being more than a 60 at best.

He failed hard in the bubble and then completely crashed in the series against Montreal with just 1 goal in 7 games.

 

[wetcoast]

If we are being fair to Kane and agreeing he a 100 in the playoffs then yeah I can't see Matthews being more than a 60 at best.

He failed hard in the bubble and then completely crashed in the series against Montreal with just 1 goal in 7 games.

Kane has had plenty of poor series and years as well but i guess a CF% of 54% (7th on the team) and a 55% on the dot and 14-2 ratio takeaways to giveaways is crashing then most players crash, often Kane as well.

Look I have Kane as better but not by that much it just doesn't add up.

 

[HolyHagelin]

I’m still mad at patty kane for f***ing up the rangers chemistry last year, i loved him for like 2 weeks and went right back to hating.

It’s Kane, ainec. All the weird justifications everyone is making for matthews in this thread are all the proof you need. NObody has to justify shit for kane because he was such a beast. Matthews is just a playoff wallflower.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Kane has had plenty of poor series and years as well but i guess a CF% of 54% (7th on the team) and a 55% on the dot and 14-2 ratio takeaways to giveaways is crashing then most players crash, often Kane as well.

Look I have Kane as better but not by that much it just doesn't add up.

Sure, Kane has had one, who hasn't?.

But has Matthews ever dominated a series? Taken one over and won? I don't really think so and if you listen to people on here he is supposed to be the greatest goal scorer of all time.

I mean he was good against Tampa last year I guess.