Do Make Say Think
& Yet & Yet
- Jun 26, 2007
- 51,167
- 9,909
Pageau or Smith
- Thread starter thesensguy
- Start date
tony d
Registered User
Sad but true.
I have to say for some reason last night I really enjoyed seeing Turris/Ryan with both A's. Its time for a changing of the guard
UnHappyDude
Fire Dorion
- Jan 11, 2011
- 2,128
- 175
The only player I would retain in that group would be Wiercioch. Legwand cannot keep up with the younger, faster players anymore. Greening lacks hockey skills, Phillips is quickly losing his place to the younger more enthusiatic players. Neil has lost two steps and has no offense, but simply brings physical play and the policeman role which can be done by Borowicki now. I prefer giving the youngsters the playing opportunitites over the old aged veterans.
Smith is a finished product and does bring something to the table Pageau doesn't, with some size, real physical play and grit.
Pageau is still just becoming the pro he will ultimately be, and is more skilled.
I think there is room for both guys long-term, although Pageau's "market value" would clearly be higher given the upside.
Pageau can float to the left wing as well, so having he and Smith on a bottom six line together next year might work. Either can take the draw, which is a real benefit on a line that gets a lot of defensive zone starts, because the first guy can be aggressive, knowing if he gets the boot by the ref, there is another accomplished center ready to take the draw behind him. Pageau is also kind of feisty, so putting him on a line with someone like Smith will just make him a bit more brazen, which is a good thing. Throw Condra or Neil in there and you have a solid 4th line that can be a 3rd line in a pinch and the coach has no problem giving defensive responsibilities to.
Pageau is still just becoming the pro he will ultimately be, and is more skilled.
I think there is room for both guys long-term, although Pageau's "market value" would clearly be higher given the upside.
Pageau can float to the left wing as well, so having he and Smith on a bottom six line together next year might work. Either can take the draw, which is a real benefit on a line that gets a lot of defensive zone starts, because the first guy can be aggressive, knowing if he gets the boot by the ref, there is another accomplished center ready to take the draw behind him. Pageau is also kind of feisty, so putting him on a line with someone like Smith will just make him a bit more brazen, which is a good thing. Throw Condra or Neil in there and you have a solid 4th line that can be a 3rd line in a pinch and the coach has no problem giving defensive responsibilities to.
I gotta go Smith.
I don't think he's held his linemates back offensively as much as some people think, he offers the obvious grit dimension, it also a pest, and is very responsible in his own end.
Pageau is fast, but I have yet to really see that speed translate into any more offense than Smith creates by banging around the net.
Bottom line: I don't think that JPG's offensive upside justifies benching a more complete player.
I don't think he's held his linemates back offensively as much as some people think, he offers the obvious grit dimension, it also a pest, and is very responsible in his own end.
Pageau is fast, but I have yet to really see that speed translate into any more offense than Smith creates by banging around the net.
Bottom line: I don't think that JPG's offensive upside justifies benching a more complete player.
There is a window opening with the development of Hoffman, Stone, Zibanejad, Pageau, Lazar, Ceci, Borowiecki and Lehner that is now firmly linked to the abilities of Turris, Ryan, MacArthur, Condra, Karlsson, Methot and Anderson.
The future of the franchise, coupled with the development of the draft picks and prospects like Prince, Puempel, Claesson, Englund, Paul, Lindberg, etc.
These guys should not be traded; they should be given the time to mesh, as we are seeing happen now a little. They remind me greatly of the team just before it became one of the best in the league, years ago. We are close.
There are a few names not on the list and they just do not belong on this team, the way it is developing, any longer.
There is a case for Michalek as the 2LW, but he has been very streaky all season. There is a case for Gryba as 3RD and maybe Cowen as the 3LD or as part of a bottom 3 rotation. There is a slight case for Chiasson.
Legwand, Smith, Neil, Phillips, Greening are simply past due now. Their time here has played out, or should be finished out elsewhere. Collectively they have won nothing. For some, they were a part of one Cup final, before it all fell apart.
Getting those five contracts off the books, to create room to promote, is Murray's biggest concern. He may not be able to get them all at the draft, but he has to get two or three of them with a buyout, retirement agreement or just waiving them. Never mind the returning asset; just get the space.
Legwand aside, they were once impactful to the team, but that was in the past. We can not keep people around just because we got used to them. Windows 95 was once a great advancement, but there was a time to migrate to the newer systems and it happened. The same needs to happen with these five.
The future of the franchise, coupled with the development of the draft picks and prospects like Prince, Puempel, Claesson, Englund, Paul, Lindberg, etc.
These guys should not be traded; they should be given the time to mesh, as we are seeing happen now a little. They remind me greatly of the team just before it became one of the best in the league, years ago. We are close.
There are a few names not on the list and they just do not belong on this team, the way it is developing, any longer.
There is a case for Michalek as the 2LW, but he has been very streaky all season. There is a case for Gryba as 3RD and maybe Cowen as the 3LD or as part of a bottom 3 rotation. There is a slight case for Chiasson.
Legwand, Smith, Neil, Phillips, Greening are simply past due now. Their time here has played out, or should be finished out elsewhere. Collectively they have won nothing. For some, they were a part of one Cup final, before it all fell apart.
Getting those five contracts off the books, to create room to promote, is Murray's biggest concern. He may not be able to get them all at the draft, but he has to get two or three of them with a buyout, retirement agreement or just waiving them. Never mind the returning asset; just get the space.
Legwand aside, they were once impactful to the team, but that was in the past. We can not keep people around just because we got used to them. Windows 95 was once a great advancement, but there was a time to migrate to the newer systems and it happened. The same needs to happen with these five.
He has played wing before and even if it`s not his natural position, he is capable of playing wing. In reality, I prefer to see a big player like him against the boards.
FolignoQuantumLeap
Don't Hold The Door
Agreed. At least Wiercioch brings a dimension to the team we need in a LH PMD. I'm content to keep him around if the budget allows.
Thing is Pageau has shown a lot more grit and all around game than Smith has in a long time. Pageau is quickly establishing himself as one of the best defensive players in the team and as a PKer while Smith has been a liability with his foot speed and penchant for taking bad penalties.
JGP also has a history of being a more offensive player in lower levels than Smith, so we can reasonably assume that part of his game will improve over time.
I think that was directed at the fact that Smith has been very poor in his time as a winger and hasn't shown that he can contribute in that role.
In general I agree, but I don't see why Smith has to be included in that list. He has been a solid defensive center MacLean leaned on heavily in past (sometimes too much, sure), and he is still of an age (26) where he can be part of the future. Certainly he brings more to the table of COndra, even though Condra is underappreciated. But keeping Condra as a UFA, will actually cost a premium now and all things being equal, I'll take Smith, who is younger, stronger, tougher, plays center and has produced more offensively over his career. Smith might be a bit more expensive still, but cap room is not a major issue and his contract is not outlandish relative to his value, like it might be for Michalek and Legwand at this stage.
As to Pageau v Smith's upside, it is interesting to look back.
As a 20 year old rookie, Smith produced 24 goals and 48 points in his first full season in the AHL. He produced at a similar pace while back and forth with Bingo in the next two season. At the same time, Pageau produced only 7 goals and 29 points as a 20 year old rookie. Over the last two seasons, Pageau has been better with 65 points in 73 games, but it's a bit of a reminder that potential always looks higher offensively before a player gets an extended NHL look. Smith may have topped out as a 10-15 goal defensive depth forward with grit, but Pageau might top out as a player who is that much better offensively. A bit more speed and guile perhaps, but less size and grit obviously.
I guess the thing with Pageau though, is he looks a bit more capable of playing wing, where as Smith has (as noted) been pretty ineffective as a winger when tried there.
bert
Registered User
Its unbelievable how much he struggled with it and was out of position when he tried. Its by far the easiest position to play in the game. He kept floating to the middle of the ice and losing his D man.
I think it had alot to do with him not carring. I have a feeling we will see old time warp Smith when he gets back. He knows his career and job is in jeopardy.
id take Smith on the 4th liner over Pageau. Really we should have both with Pag playing 3C.
The real argument is Smith over Legwand.
The real argument is Smith over Legwand.
its not "easy" to play wing in the NHL when youve been playing center your entire life/career.
The thought of our top prospect on a line like this makes me cringe. Not that dislike pageau. (I dislike smith). But lazar should be in WHL. With top line WHL talent. And then he should be in the AHL. With top line AHL talent. And then he should be in the NHL. With top 6 NHL talent.
Smith is bad in the defensive zone. Bad in the neutral zone. And bad in the offensive zone. And take absolutely ridiculous penalties.
UnHappyDude
Fire Dorion
- Jan 11, 2011
- 2,128
- 175
He played wing at teh begining of this season and he was absolutely terrible. If we dont have room form him at C, then we might as well move him. Unless he somehow majically doesnt play like hot garbage on the wing. But they will probalby kep him a 4th C and use LAzer as a RW. Then Pageau will be our 3C
Not quite twice but it is definitely a small sample size for this season. I was more trying to show that Pageau's been better offensively this season than most are giving him credit for, taking into consideration his icetime and stuff.
Insightful, to the last.
Re the penalties, he does take more than average, but unlike most physical forwards - including Neil - Smith consistently draws just as many penalties as he takes.
I don't disagree that Pageau's offensive potential is higher, despite my previous point. Has the upside of being a Vermette, actually. But potential is a fickle thing.
saskriders
Can't Hold Leads
I think the question should be Smith or Legwand.
If Smith can get back to his former self I would easily put him in.
If Smith can get back to his former self I would easily put him in.
