Friedman: Pacioretty in "30 Thoughts"

[CHaracter79]

That's great. It's also besides the point. It's not just a 15 game sample. This is linear progression from one year to the next. We've been watching Rakell for a long time now. Probably longer than a lot of habs fans even knew who he was.

thats for sure. like many fans of other teams dont usually spend that much time watching all other teams. absolutely.

I just think that if a player was available that has gotten at least 60pts since he was 23, scored 33,39.30.37 and 30 goals those five seasons. cap hit is at 4 and has 3 years left on that deal, youd be surprised the kind of return it would bring. I mean if he were playign with tavares that whole time id say ok.. thats one thing.. but David Desharnais.

i cant even imagine how many times he would light the lamp with Gets and perry

 

[liquiduck]

thats for sure. like many fans of other teams dont usually spend that much time watching all other teams. absolutely.

I just think that if a player was available that has gotten at least 60pts since he was 23, scored 33,39.30.37 and 30 goals those five seasons. cap hit is at 4 and has 3 years left on that deal, youd be surprised the kind of return it would bring. I mean if he were playign with tavares that whole time id say ok.. thats one thing.. but David Desharnais.

i cant even imagine how many times he would light the lamp with Gets and perry

I'm not saying he wouldn't be awesome here. I'm just saying Rakell is basically untouchable at this point. If Montreal wants to trade Patches then we have lots of defensemen that might be enticing .

 

[Mike8]

He's worth that to Montreal, for sure. He does not seem to be worth that to the rest of the League. Which is not surprising, because he is a middle-aged scoring winger. Among the best if not THE best in that category, but that is still not exactly a high value category.

What? Scoring winger is not a high value category?

 

[CHaracter79]

I'm not saying he wouldn't be awesome here. I'm just saying Rakell is basically untouchable at this point. If Montreal wants to trade Patches then we have lots of defensemen that might be enticing .

moving player like pacioretty requires a C or LW capable of top 6 minutes and a top 4 D

ideally a C however.

would do something liek Patches+ for draisaitl plus top4 D but EDM need D men more then we do.

you guys have more dmen and with the expansion draft coming... you may lose someone for free

out of curiosity what would b the exp protec list for ANA

 

[CHaracter79]

What? Scoring winger is not a high value category?

top 5 scoring winger int he league since the lockout playign with Desharnais on a sweetheart cap hit for 3 years ..

nah.. not worth much

 

[hockeyheadlines]

Oh, wow. You should be feeling deep, personal, overwhelming shame for even briefly thinking about this idea, let alone going so far as to write it down and post it on a public message board.

* * *​

He's worth that to Montreal, for sure. He does not seem to be worth that to the rest of the League. Which is not surprising, because he is a middle-aged scoring winger. Among the best if not THE best in that category, but that is still not exactly a high value category.

 

[liquiduck]

moving player like pacioretty requires a C or LW capable of top 6 minutes and a top 4 D

ideally a C however.

would do something liek Patches+ for draisaitl plus top4 D but EDM need D men more then we do.

you guys have more dmen and with the expansion draft coming... you may lose someone for free

out of curiosity what would b the exp protec list for ANA

Right now Fowler, Vatanen and Lindholm.
If one of Fowler or Vatanen is moved at the end of the year, then
Vatanen/fowler, Lindhom and Manson.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

What? Scoring winger is not a high value category?

hall got Larsson

Fowler > Larsson

/shrug

 

[Mike8]

hall got Larsson

Fowler > Larsson

/shrug

I don't think one deal sets the bar for all trade deals thereafter. Especially since the players involved are very different.

 

[The Great Weal]

hall got Larsson

Fowler > Larsson

/shrug

Edmonton HAD to do something to get D help

 

[CHaracter79]

hall got Larsson

Fowler > Larsson

/shrug

Taylor hall is great.. never scored 30 goals in his career. 6m cap hit for 6 years and edm had to get a D over paid IMHO

pacioretty cap hit is 4.5 for 3

may not mean much to most on here but that plays a huge role in trades.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

thats for sure. like many fans of other teams dont usually spend that much time watching all other teams. absolutely.

I just think that if a player was available that has gotten at least 60pts since he was 23, scored 33,39.30.37 and 30 goals those five seasons. cap hit is at 4 and has 3 years left on that deal, youd be surprised the kind of return it would bring. I mean if he were playign with tavares that whole time id say ok.. thats one thing.. but David Desharnais.

i cant even imagine how many times he would light the lamp with Gets and perry

Pacioretty is a good player but the ducks are not in a position to trade Rakell, over the last year+ Rakell has really shown signs of developing into a 1st line forward or at the least a high end 2nd liner.

With lack of young forward talent they can't really move him much less add on a player like Fowler

 

[CHaracter79]

Pacioretty is a good player but the ducks are not in a position to trade Rakell, over the last year+ Rakell has really shown signs of developing into a 1st line forward or at the least a high end 2nd liner.

With lack of young forward talent they can't really move him much less add on a player like Fowler

I understand and accept the response. but all im sayign is that you are receiving a bonafide first line LW for the next 5-6 years given you could resign him

and there would be a +

just like Fowler being UFA in two years. the risk is also there

THe idea is that you make a trade to imporve the team.. if Pacioretty + offers the kind of offence on the left side of getz that can push the team over then it would make sense. there is no proof it would happen... Rakell may do just as well or maybe worse. but a proven LW is worth more then potential.

Rakell improves our team because he adds depth to our C position which is our weak link

anyway.. i seriously got to get back to work. good talk though. nice that it stayed civil in here... well for the most part.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I understand and accept the response. but all im sayign is that you are receiving a bonafide first line LW for the next 5-6 years given you could resign him

and there would be a +

just like Fowler being UFA in two years. the risk is also there

THe idea is that you make a trade to imporve the team.. if Pacioretty + offers the kind of offence on the left side of getz that can push the team over then it would make sense. there is no proof it would happen... Rakell may do just as well or maybe worse. but a proven LW is worth more then potential.

Rakell improves our team because he adds depth to our C position which is our weak link

anyway.. i seriously got to get back to work. good talk though. nice that it stayed civil in here... well for the most part.

Rakell is much better on the wing over center, for the record

 

[Exit Dose]

I understand and accept the response. but all im sayign is that you are receiving a bonafide first line LW for the next 5-6 years given you could resign him

and there would be a +

just like Fowler being UFA in two years. the risk is also there

THe idea is that you make a trade to imporve the team.. if Pacioretty + offers the kind of offence on the left side of getz that can push the team over then it would make sense. there is no proof it would happen... Rakell may do just as well or maybe worse. but a proven LW is worth more then potential.

Rakell improves our team because he adds depth to our C position which is our weak link

anyway.. i seriously got to get back to work. good talk though. nice that it stayed civil in here... well for the most part.

We aren't evaluating Rakell on the basis of his potential. We're evaluating him on the basis of what he's done on this team over the last year. He's a proven LW in Anaheim.

 

[dracom]

Taylor hall is great.. never scored 30 goals in his career. 6m cap hit for 6 years and edm had to get a D over paid IMHO

pacioretty cap hit is 4.5 for 3

may not mean much to most on here but that plays a huge role in trades.

You realize the cap hit is something I've been pushing as to way we wouldn't do that trade right? Rakell has a cheaper and longer contract that takes him to his prime years, while Patches is larger and takes him to his last years of his prime. Then we either re-sign him to a large deal and regret it or lose him for nothing.

Like you said, the contract plays a big role in trades, just in this case we value Rakell's contract over Patches.

 

[Mike8]

The discussion seems to overwhelmingly suggest that Pacioretty couldn't fetch Rakell, nevermind adding to Rakell. That seems to be entirely fair. I also don't think Pacioretty for Fowler+ is out of the realm of fair value.

It's true that Montreal needs Pacioretty: the team has only four top-six forwards right now, one of which is Pacioretty, so removing him without replacing him in the top-six would be a lateral move. However, if the club feels as though Pacioretty's struggles may continue, and the club is looking to take advantage of their 'insider' knowledge on Pacioretty, OR, if the team feels like Pacioretty's production can be replaced either internally (unlikely) or through a trade of young assets for a ready-now player (likely), then dealing Pacioretty may make sense.

In short: dealing Pacioretty for a defenseman to shore up a weakness on LD could make sense, but would necessitate a second move. That's a lot of movement -- particularly considering Pacioretty's value to Montreal ought to be quite high. I'd imagine his value on the trade market may be even higher though, given his complete game + goal scoring.

 

[Viqsi]

Well the trade doesn't make sense right now as much as I like Galchenyuk we have good center depth. But I'm guessing Rakell + fowler would get it done and if there was an add it wouldn't be a whole lot.

For reference

Jones got johanson
Larsson got Hall

Id say fowler is in the middle of those 2 players... not to mention fowler + weber would be an amazing pairing, perfect player for fowler in my honest opinion.

Trade value doesn't work that way. When one is inquiring after a high-value position like #1C (particularly a young one with rights controlled like Galchenyuk), you don't get to start with something lesser and add on another something lesser and say "that's good enough because [insert previous one-for-ones here]". Montreal would have specific needs, and you would be expected to meet them.

Of course, w/r/t a Galchenyuk deal, the need Montreal would have coming back is a Galchenyuk (much like how, with a Rakell deal, the need Anaheim would have coming back is a Rakell). So that's kind of DOA.

* * *​

What? Scoring winger is not a high value category?

Compared to "young cost-controlled top-3 defenseman" and "young cost-controlled linearly progressing top-6 scoring center"... nope, not really. Not unless you're lucky and find a team that really badly needs one.

Helpful rule of thumb:

• A high quality center or defenseman is something you can sell.
• A high quality winger is something you can buy.
• Consider yourself extraordinarily fortunate if you manage to get either of those the other way around.

* * *​

In short: dealing Pacioretty for a defenseman to shore up a weakness on LD could make sense, but would necessitate a second move. That's a lot of movement -- particularly considering Pacioretty's value to Montreal ought to be quite high. I'd imagine his value on the trade market may be even higher though, given his complete game + goal scoring.

His value on the trade market is going to be dictated by who actually needs such a piece badly enough that they're willing to pay a decent price. It's early in the season for that.

 

[TacitEndorsement]

Is there a deal to be made around Tanev+ for Pacioretty? Has this been brought up?

 

[Ducks in a row]

I understand and accept the response. but all im sayign is that you are receiving a bonafide first line LW for the next 5-6 years given you could resign him

and there would be a +

just like Fowler being UFA in two years. the risk is also there

THe idea is that you make a trade to imporve the team.. if Pacioretty + offers the kind of offence on the left side of getz that can push the team over then it would make sense. there is no proof it would happen... Rakell may do just as well or maybe worse. but a proven LW is worth more then potential.

Rakell improves our team because he adds depth to our C position which is our weak link

anyway.. i seriously got to get back to work. good talk though. nice that it stayed civil in here... well for the most part.

Rakell can and has played LW before he is actually better on wing then center. Last season he had 20 goals 23 assists 43 points in 72 games and has 9 goals 4 assists 13 points in 14 games this season. Rakell is more then just potential he has and is actually doing very well. He does have potential for even more. Ducks shouldn't be trading him.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Is there a deal to be made around Tanev+ for Pacioretty? Has this been brought up?

Nah, Habs already have Weber/Petry as RHD so we are fine with our RHD.

 

[lindroshomer]

Rakell can and has played LW before he is actually better on wing then center. Last season he had 20 goals 23 assists 43 points in 72 games and has 9 goals 4 assists 13 points in 14 games this season. Rakell is more then just potential he has and is actually doing very well. He does have potential for even more. Ducks shouldn't be trading him.

Yeah most players will be better on the LW with Getzlaf and Perry than they will be playing center without them.

 

[CanadienShark]

ryan getzlaf only has two goals this year.. does this mean something to you? does it lower his value because he had a bad start? does galchenyuk value rise more then this summer because he is on pace for 80pts?

i understand the love of a player on your team... but value wise..

rakell and fowler for pacioretty + is very close

just like i understand that trading for perry would prob cost galchenyuk.

would either of us make the trades... who knows...

strictly value here though

I'm sorry man, but it'd have to be a pretty significant plus to make that fair. Fowler for Pacioretty is more or less equal value, whether people on either side agree or not. Rakell is a really valuable young player. People ought to watch the guy a little more - as a Sharks fan, I hate that they have him.

 

[Exit Dose]

Yeah most players will be better on the LW with Getzlaf and Perry than they will be playing center without them.

Historically, that has not been the case.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Yeah most players will be better on the LW with Getzlaf and Perry than they will be playing center without them.

rakell has spent most of this year not playing with them