Overrated And Underrated Hockey Players

[Johnny Engine]

Maybe Bobby Clarke is underrated a bit? I don't know.

I just find it tough to fathom that our view from 45 years later is clearer than their view was in real time.

I can't find a link for it, but Clarke himself was quoted saying "if it went to the best player, Bobby Orr would win it every year hands down." One guy's opinion of course, and an opportunity to show some grace and humility in public, but it at least shows that the idea of Clarke's Hart being a "most valuable, not best" award isn't something we made up on HFBoards 45 years later.

 

[MXD]

I can't find a link for it, but Clarke himself was quoted saying "if it went to the best player, Bobby Orr would win it every year hands down." One guy's opinion of course, and an opportunity to show some grace and humility in public, but it at least shows that the idea of Clarke's Hart being a "most valuable, not best" award isn't something we made up on HFBoards 45 years later.

Well, there's that too (along with the more general point I was making about Hart voting being generally biased against D-Men).

 

[MXD]

I mean.... At the end of the day, Gordie Howe may, or not, rank higher than Bobby Orr (I think he doesn't, but that's neither here or there), but you can't really get to that conclusion by comparing both players Hart results, because of their position.

Want to call Howe a better player than Lemieux or Jean Beliveau? Hart award support is a totally valid argument. Want to call him better than Orr? ... you gotta bring something else.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

-As was posted in the other thread

-Career VSX AND Era Adjusted stats. Its ironic that it was mentioned I look into a VSX by 2 different people recently as a completely unbiased source, and as soon as I did, the correlation between the 2 at the top of the all time charts is astounding and so similar its creepy


-Low in behold, both support some of my claims as to who is more underrated and overrated. Without bringing bias into this,

-Peter Forsberg is insanely underrated.

Player	Adj GP	VsX	VsX/GP
Mario Lemieux	926	1,409	1.52
Wayne Gretzky	1,543	2,327	1.51
Bobby Orr	700	940	1.34
Sidney Crosby	808	1,079	1.34
Connor McDavid	127	166	1.31
Syl Apps Sr	681	839	1.23
Peter Forsberg	741	882	1.19
Evgeni Malkin	728	866	1.19
Gordie Howe	2,061	2,444	1.19
Jean Beliveau	1,292	1,519	1.18
Phil Esposito	1,369	1,609	1.18
Mike Bossy	771	894	1.16
Gordie Drillon	528	607	1.15
Bobby Hull	1,203	1,376	1.14
Alex Ovechkin	955	1,080	1.13

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Midnight Judges]

-As was posted in the other thread

-Career VSX AND Era Adjusted stats. Its ironic that it was mentioned I look into a VSX by 2 different people recently as a completely unbiased source, and as soon as I did, the correlation between the 2 at the top of the all time charts is astounding and so similar its creepy


-Low in behold, both support some of my claims as to who is more underrated and overrated. Without bringing bias into this,

-Peter Forsberg is insanely underrated.

Player	Adj GP	VsX	VsX/GP
Mario Lemieux	926	1,409	1.52
Wayne Gretzky	1,543	2,327	1.51
Bobby Orr	700	940	1.34
Sidney Crosby	808	1,079	1.34
Connor McDavid	127	166	1.31
Syl Apps Sr	681	839	1.23
Peter Forsberg	741	882	1.19
Evgeni Malkin	728	866	1.19
Gordie Howe	2,061	2,444	1.19
Jean Beliveau	1,292	1,519	1.18
Phil Esposito	1,369	1,609	1.18
Mike Bossy	771	894	1.16
Gordie Drillon	528	607	1.15
Bobby Hull	1,203	1,376	1.14
Alex Ovechkin	955	1,080	1.13

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The problem with those metrics is they punish players for showing up.

 

[daver]

Joe Sakic's peak is underrated IMO. He was putting up Jagr's points while being a Selke caliber player.

No he wasn't. He challenged Jagr once in points and/or PPG out of Jagr's seven year Art Ross years. He had one season that was considered Selke caliber. His peak season is well below Jagr's offensively but that gap is closed with his defensive game.

 

[whcanuck]

Overrated- For me it’s Mark Messier and Joe Thornton. To clarify, 1984-1996 Messier was elite, a force offensively and physically. But the last 8 years of his career were really average and I know it’s super in vogue to say this right now, but I think his status as “the game’s greatest leader” is kinda absurd. I think Yzerman and Sakic alone are both superior leaders.

Thornton is an extremely gifted playmaker inside a power forward’s body but I always thought they hyped him to be something far greater than he was. He’s a hall of famer just like Messier, but Thornton’s poor playoff performances of the past and inability to live up to his full potential make him overrated in my opinion.


Underrated- I agree completely with anyone who says Dale Hawerchuk. Very consistent, just flew under the radar in Winnipeg. I’d also say Steve Duchesne. 4 seasons of 20+ goals from the blue line and although he played for a lot of teams...he was a consistent offensive contributor. Never finished higher than 5th in Norris voting but was always pretty consistent.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Gordie Howe is massively underrated on this forum. 6 time Hart winner, 12 time nominee, all-time adjusted goals leader with other-worldly longevity. Putting him below Lemieux is bordering on absurd.

Conversely, Lemieux is massively overrated. He seems to benefit from extrapolations as if they are comparable to the things Wayne Gretzky actually did. This is a uniquely illogical thought process in hockey fandom - brought on by homers and not sufficiently rejected by rational fans. It needs to die a quick death. Lemieux also seems to benefit from bizarrely stupid statements like "he didn't even train before coming back" or "he had a bad back" or "look how great he was for one half season during a 5 year stretch outside of which he did nothing."

Joe Sakic's peak is underrated IMO. He was putting up Jagr's points while being a Selke caliber player.

Echo Phil Esposito being generally underrated. His goal scoring was off the charts at the time. His greatest season - specifically in terms of offensive production - is top 6 of all time IMO - yes, better than all but 3-4 of Gretzky's best. Then you got Lemieux's 199 point season and then Espo.

-Here we go....

-Sakic's best year all time was 1996, with 120 points. Jagr put up 149 points that same year. Its only a 29 point difference in the same year

-And just for extra measure. Jagr scored 62 goals that year. Sakic scored 51

 

[brachyrynchos]

Peter Stastny had the 2nd most points in the '80s, Adam Oates the 2nd most points in the '90s. Both guys I think are a little underrated and seem to get forgotten in the discussion around here.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Peter Stastny had the 2nd most points in the '80s, Adam Oates the 2nd most points in the '90s. Both guys I think are a little underrated and seem to get forgotten in the discussion around here.

The problem with Stastny is take away Gretzky, he gains 2 second all teams and probably an Art Ross if nothing else changes.

I don't know how much that helps his legacy

 

[Fantomas]

A lot of offensive NHL forwards from the 1980s are overrated. You name them, almost all of them.

 

[Fantomas]

The problem with those metrics is they punish players for showing up.

It also appears they're punishing players for being goal scorers. When Bobby Hull and Ovechkin are that low on your list your metrics are probably crap.

 

[brachyrynchos]

The problem with Stastny is take away Gretzky, he gains 2 second all teams and probably an Art Ross if nothing else changes.

I don't know how much that helps his legacy

I don't think it helps his legacy either. My point is that both Stastny and Oates put up some pretty good numbers on a consistent basis and rarely seem to get mentioned. Same with previously mentioned Hawerchuk, underrated and not enough recognition.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

It also appears they're punishing players for being goal scorers. When Bobby Hull and Ovechkin are that low on your list your metrics are probably crap.

-Or because those players assist numbers all time are beyond crap for an All Time Great? Could that be? Or because a player like Jagr also played wing just like both of these players, and Jagr has 600 more assists then both of them? Perhaps?

-Ovechkin will rank fairly highly on my list. As will Hull. I dont diminish him because I dont like Washington. But when you objectivly look at the list, they are ranked low because their assist number stink for an All Time great player

 

[Fantomas]

-Or because those players assist numbers all time are beyond crap for an All Time Great? Could that be? Or because a player like Jagr also played wing just like both of these players, and Jagr has 600 more assists then both of them? Perhaps?

-Ovechkin will rank fairly highly on my list. As will Hull. I dont diminish him because I dont like Washington. But when you objectivly look at the list, they are ranked low because their assist number stink for an All Time great player

Maybe you like assists this much because you fit your data to suit the results you want.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Maybe you like assists this much because you fit your data to suit the results you want.

-I like points, period. I dont care if its a goal or assist. Its putting the puck in the goal.

 

[Fantomas]

-I like points, period. I dont care if its a goal or assist. Its putting the puck in the goal.

Of course you do.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Of course you do.

-I do. Since everything I post about has to do with points, points per game, era adjusted points, points vs your peers, points in playoffs, points, points, points. The Art Ross doesnt exist without points. And a forward with little points but a great 2 way player? Forget about the Conn Smythe, no chance. Points...

 

[K Fleur]

Overrated; Quite a few players whose primes occured from about 1992-2004.

Fedorov, Lindros, and Niedermayer being the holy trinity.

 

[streitz]

I'd take Stastny, Hawerchuk, Dionne, Savard over any center today and in the past 20 years not named Crosby or Malkin.


Probably Pederson aswell but he had cancer that killed his career extra early. Those guys were each fun to watch, put up points and sadly aside from Savard when he was washed up with MTL never won the cup.

 

[Midnight Judges]

-
-Sakic's best year all time was 1996, with 120 points.

That is not Sakic's best year.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

That is not Sakic's best year.

-Whats his best season? Because 120 is the most points he ever put up and Jagr destroyed him.

 

[Doctor No]

-Whats his best season? Because 120 is the most points he ever put up and Jagr destroyed him.

Oh, I don't know. Maybe the season where he was awarded the Hart Memorial Trophy?

 

[Midnight Judges]

-Whats his best season? Because 120 is the most points he ever put up and Jagr destroyed him.

His Hart season is his best. Obviously.

He had 3 more goals, 2 fewer points, but league scoring was 14% higher in '96 relative to '01. After factoring that in, it is pretty obvious.

 

[Doctor No]

and Jagr destroyed him.