Speculation: Over CAP teams discussion

[zcaptain]

Where are you getting $1.4m per contract from?

:LOL...….Sounded too good......1.1 Million per X 3...……..3.3 Million big difference

Sorry....does not change a thing...just wrong.....again Sorry!

 

[mikeyfan]

One more question. If the schedule is 56 games. Will the NHL prorate the salaries based on the shortened schedule? Example The Lightings payroll is currently $1,017,123.97 per game. Multiply that by 26 games missed, that would be a 26,445,223.30 cap reduction for the lighting. I used the per game average as that is how Cap Friendly do the daily adjustments per team.

So is any team really going to be hurt by the cap this year?

 

[Fatass]

Vancouver's good

Ferland on LTIR...….3.5 Million

Eriksson, Baertschi, and Benn to the Taxi Squad or Utica ……...1.1 X 3 = 3.3 Million
(preferably Taxi squad)

I actually think we sign a RHD

And the Canuck’s owner, who now adds to his Covid losses housing his team in a city other than Vancouver for this season, is expected to spend over the cap, by using LTIR? I’m thinking the Canucks (like mist NHL teams) will be using LTI for insurance purposes,but not to spend over the cap.

 

[mouser]

One more question. If the schedule is 56 games. Will the NHL prorate the salaries based on the shortened schedule? Example The Lightings payroll is currently $1,017,123.97 per game. Multiply that by 26 games missed, that would be a 26,445,223.30 cap reduction for the lighting. I used the per game average as that is how Cap Friendly do the daily adjustments per team.

So is any team really going to be hurt by the cap this year?

There will be no pro-ration of salaries. Players will get hit by 20% escrow and have 10% of they salaries deferred to future seasons.

Plus any overage of the player 50% share of revenue will be carried over to future seasons, reducing the cap and increasing escrow in those years. Basically the players get “overpaid” this season and “underpaid” in future seasons until that debt is paid back to the teams.

 

[mikeyfan]

There will be no pro-ration of salaries. Players will get hit by 20% escrow and have 10% of they salaries deferred to future seasons.

Will that 30% reduction take place after the teams 1st game or before.

again thanks for the response and patience with my questions

 

[mouser]

Will that 30% reduction take place after the teams 1st game or before.

again thanks for the response and patience with my questions

None of that 30% will change player or team cap numbers for 2020-21.

The escrow and deferred payments are all financial accounting to sort out the 50/50 split of revenue between the PA and NHL.

 

[archimet]

But we didn't need Staal.
We could have replaced Ericsson or Daley with Andy Greene.
As it is, we went out and got Merill and Stecher.
My guess is Merill and Stecher alone.

I definitely don't think that getting a 2nd in the Staal deal was a great coup.
It's not like we got screwed or anything.
But I think it's worth considering if patience might have helped us.
The obvious flipside is, if you wait too long and hold a team like the Rangers over the barrel, a team like the Kings might come in and take the contract for less.

Perhaps, with 20/20 hindsight a little patience, we might have landed a bigger return. But who's to say? There was an awfully lot of uncertainty in late September when the deal was made. Neither the Rangers nor the Red Wings had the luxury of hindsight. They had to make the deal when the deal was available. People seem to thing that deals like this are common. They're not. They don't come around all that often. Who's to say the deal would have still been around if Detroit waited? Other options could have... and probably would... have presented themselves to the Rangers. The trade was a very solid move for both teams at the moment it materialized. As for Detroit, why would they not take the 2nd, land an experienced D who can play in Detroit's line-up, and perhaps return another asset at the trade deadline. Plus, there's no guarantee the Rangers make the playoffs because they're in a loaded division. The second could turn out to be a mid-round pick. Not bad. But just as important, Staal is exactly the type of player who brings more to the table for a rebuilding team than just on-ice performance: leadership, playoff experience (not that we'll make the playoffs), and a track record as a warrior. That's what the young guys must learn to make us contenders again. Mark Staal can help with that.

 

[archimet]

Vancouver's good

Ferland on LTIR...….3.5 Million

Eriksson, Baertschi, and Benn to the Taxi Squad or Utica ……...1.1 X 3 = 3.3 Million
(preferably Taxi squad)

I actually think we sign a RHD

I'm not sure how the taxi squad is actually going to help teams out of a cap crunch. Of course, there's a temporary savings of up to $1,075,000 against the cap, so it can give temporary relief. But what happens during the season when someone inevitably goes on IR and the team wants to recall someone from the taxi squad? IR doesn't give a team CAP relief. The injured player's entire CAP is still counted. The problems arises because the temporary savings of $1,075,000 is lost when a player is called up from the taxi squad. It seems like a team that tries to become CAP-compliant using the taxi squads risks not being able to ice an entire team if several players end up on IR at the same time (which always happens).

 

[Weezeric]

I'm not sure how the taxi squad is actually going to help teams out of a cap crunch. Of course, there's a temporary savings of up to $1,075,000 against the cap, so it can give temporary relief. But what happens during the season when someone inevitably goes on IR and the team wants to recall someone from the taxi squad? IR doesn't give a team CAP relief. The injured player's entire CAP is still counted. The problems arises because the temporary savings of $1,075,000 is lost when a player is called up from the taxi squad. It seems like a team that tries to become CAP-compliant using the taxi squads risks not being able to ice an entire team if several players end up on IR at the same time (which always happens).

This!
I don’t think the taxi squads are a get out of jail free card for teams up against it. I wonder if they will adjust emergency call up rules for this season because a team has to play a game with less than a full roster before that comes into affect. A team like the leafs is well setup by having lots of league minimum contracts that qualify for emergency call ups, but I’d they’re going to run a 21 man roster all year and 3 or 4 players are on the IR at once, it’s going to get interesting.

 

[MBH]

Perhaps, with 20/20 hindsight a little patience, we might have landed a bigger return. But who's to say? There was an awfully lot of uncertainty in late September when the deal was made. Neither the Rangers nor the Red Wings had the luxury of hindsight. They had to make the deal when the deal was available. People seem to thing that deals like this are common. They're not. They don't come around all that often. Who's to say the deal would have still been around if Detroit waited? Other options could have... and probably would... have presented themselves to the Rangers. The trade was a very solid move for both teams at the moment it materialized. As for Detroit, why would they not take the 2nd, land an experienced D who can play in Detroit's line-up, and perhaps return another asset at the trade deadline. Plus, there's no guarantee the Rangers make the playoffs because they're in a loaded division. The second could turn out to be a mid-round pick. Not bad. But just as important, Staal is exactly the type of player who brings more to the table for a rebuilding team than just on-ice performance: leadership, playoff experience (not that we'll make the playoffs), and a track record as a warrior. That's what the young guys must learn to make us contenders again. Mark Staal can help with that.

Your points were reasonable until the bolded.
All hail Marc Staal, the warrior.

The Red Wings do not need Marc Staal at all.
Even with Seider in Sweden they have the following top 7:
Dekeyser Hronek
Nemeth Merrill
Cholowski Stecher
Lindstrom

Yeah, that's awful. But who does Staal bump out of that tp 7?

 

[Jannik Hansen]

Your points were reasonable until the bolded.
All hail Marc Staal, the warrior.

The Red Wings do not need Marc Staal at all.
Even with Seider in Sweden they have the following top 7:
Dekeyser Hronek
Nemeth Merrill
Cholowski Stecher
Lindstrom

Yeah, that's awful. But who does Staal bump out of that tp 7?

Cholowski and Lindstrom.

 

[MBH]

Cholowski and Lindstrom.

In my world, a rebuilding team finds room for a 22-year-old defenseman taken in round 1 and 22 year old defenseman taken in round 2.

 

[Jannik Hansen]

In my world, a rebuilding team finds room for a 22-year-old defenseman taken in round 1 and 22 year old defenseman taken in round 2.

Neither of them appear to be very good. Draft status shouldn’t lock you into a roster spot. Is Lindstrom even a good D at the AHL level?

 

[MBH]

Neither of them appear to be very good. Draft status shouldn’t lock you into a roster spot. Is Lindstrom even a good D at the AHL level?

No, neither of them are very good, yet.
But they are 22.
They've both shown enough to play in the NHL. And rebuilding teams are more likely to live with growing pains and be patient with young players.

I don't see any wisdom in playing Marc Staal over them.

As bad as Cholowski looked at times last year, guys like Ericsson and Daley were worse.
My sense is that Marc Staal is going to look Ericsson-esque in Detroit.
Mercifully, all Detroit defensemen should appear a little better with Howard out of the picture.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Neither of them appear to be very good. Draft status shouldn’t lock you into a roster spot. Is Lindstrom even a good D at the AHL level?

How has Marc Staal appeared since his eye injury?

 

[zcaptain]

I'm not sure how the taxi squad is actually going to help teams out of a cap crunch. Of course, there's a temporary savings of up to $1,075,000 against the cap, so it can give temporary relief. But what happens during the season when someone inevitably goes on IR and the team wants to recall someone from the taxi squad? IR doesn't give a team CAP relief. The injured player's entire CAP is still counted. The problems arises because the temporary savings of $1,075,000 is lost when a player is called up from the taxi squad. It seems like a team that tries to become CAP-compliant using the taxi squads risks not being able to ice an entire team if several players end up on IR at the same time (which always happens).

Well, what you suggest could be a problem
I would guess that a team that spends right p to the $81.500.000 might have that problem
But since what you are talking about max $1,075,000 over 82 games, you are talking about 10 to 12 thousand a game.
LTIR could be recaptured to the beginning if a short term injury is lengthened to that extent
Seriously, we are just spit balling, as I am sure the NHL will come up with something we are not even talking about.
But it is still a good question.......

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Neither of them appear to be very good. Draft status shouldn’t lock you into a roster spot. Is Lindstrom even a good D at the AHL level?

Lindstrom was very poised & steady in the Dzone, good skater, patient, good decision making. Don't expect offense though. He's fine as a #6 with upside on a rebuilding team. Small sample size, sure. I prefer him over Cholowski 100% of the time.

DDK-Hronek
Nemeth-Stecher
Staal/Merrill-Lindstrom
Cholowski.

Seider will be here when the SHL ends, I believe in April? Nemeth/Staal/Merrill will be on the TDL block. Slight possibility of DDK too, but we're barren on LD even with him. Cholowski has this 56 game season to make it, but he could also be a TDL candidate.

 

[Deen]

They needed some kind of veteran NHL D presence on their blueline, yes. I know it's sacrilege to want a bad NHL player when you could give minutes to a guy in his early 20s... but the Wings lost about half of their D core depth. It was bad depth, to be sure, but you need players who can give you any sense of stability.

Did they specifically need Marc Staal? No.

They did, however, need a defenseman with some kind of experience.

Detroit should trade for Erik Karlsson.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

In my world, a rebuilding team finds room for a 22-year-old defenseman taken in round 1 and 22 year old defenseman taken in round 2.

And in my world, I don't give a shit about where you are drafted after draft night. Many of the best players in the league were taken in the third and later or undrafted entirely. Where you are taken in the draft literally has nothing to do with anything except what eyes saw you and how you performed against players far inferior to who you will be playing.

If Lindstrom and Cholowski can't beat out Staal for ice time who you're saying is dogshit... why on Earth are you gonna prioritize finding room for them on your bottom pairing? Isn't Cholowski starting his third year in the league? He might be 22, but I mean, he's almost 100 games into his career. Just because a guy's age is early 20s doesn't mean he has a guarantee to hit any potential.

A rebuilding team should actually have some kind of structure that allows them to give their young prospects the ability to actually grow. Because if you toss a bunch of young guys and a really bad goalie out there all at once, you're gonna get a lot of finger pointing and bad lessons being taught because a young D is going to flub some defensive assignment and it's gonna go into the back of the net. Or the goalie is going to give up a squeaker and the D will try to compensate by making the riskier decision to break up a shot attempt as opposed to letting the goalie handle it.

Actually give guys support when they're trying to learn as opposed to just giving them chances to go out on the ice and fall on their asses.

 

[MBH]

And in my world, I don't give a shit about where you are drafted after draft night. Many of the best players in the league were taken in the third and later or undrafted entirely. Where you are taken in the draft literally has nothing to do with anything except what eyes saw you and how you performed against players far inferior to who you will be playing.

If Lindstrom and Cholowski can't beat out Staal for ice time who you're saying is dogshit... why on Earth are you gonna prioritize finding room for them on your bottom pairing? Isn't Cholowski starting his third year in the league? He might be 22, but I mean, he's almost 100 games into his career. Just because a guy's age is early 20s doesn't mean he has a guarantee to hit any potential.

A rebuilding team should actually have some kind of structure that allows them to give their young prospects the ability to actually grow. Because if you toss a bunch of young guys and a really bad goalie out there all at once, you're gonna get a lot of finger pointing and bad lessons being taught because a young D is going to flub some defensive assignment and it's gonna go into the back of the net. Or the goalie is going to give up a squeaker and the D will try to compensate by making the riskier decision to break up a shot attempt as opposed to letting the goalie handle it.

Actually give guys support when they're trying to learn as opposed to just giving them chances to go out on the ice and fall on their asses.

We've seen enough of Cholowski to know that he's at least borderline NHL.
Lindstrom less so.
If you don't work it out with Cholowski and determine his viability this year, well, now you're staring at waivers next year.
And both guys, waivers are not, need to be assessed in the light of the expansion draft.

You act like Detroit isn't coming off the worst season of the century.
Cholowski/Lindstrom both had better goals against averages than most of the defense.

It's hilarious that you're in this thread talking about the Wings' great need for Marc f***ing Staal (who's been past it for 3 years and makes $5.7M), while you're over in the other thread acting like getting Tyler Johnson, a quality NHL center who just won the cup at age 30) and a first round pick for nothing but cap space/money is a bad deal.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

We've seen enough of Cholowski to know that he's at least borderline NHL.
Lindstrom less so.
If you don't work it out with Cholowski and determine his viability this year, well, now you're staring at waivers next year.
And both guys, waivers are not, need to be assessed in the light of the expansion draft.

You act like Detroit isn't coming off the worst season of the century.
Cholowski/Lindstrom both had better goals against averages than most of the defense.

It's hilarious that you're in this thread talking about the Wings' great need for Marc f***ing Staal (who's been past it for 3 years and makes $5.7M), while you're over in the other thread acting like getting Tyler Johnson, a quality NHL center who just won the cup at age 30) and a first round pick for nothing but cap space/money is a bad deal.

I'll just handle it here.

Johnson > Staal. Inarguably. The quality of the player is irrelevant. Tampa is trading me the salary, not the player. If I have a use for the player, that's up to me. If I just hate Tyler Johnson and want to send him to Siberia to play hockey with Polar Bears? That's up to me. Tampa wants/wanted to be rid of $5M to get cap compliant and sign their two RFAs. I'm not giving them a discount because they're giving me a workable 2C. They need all $5M of his money gone to do anything when the whole team is healthy. One year? I take the likely 25-31 pick and run with it. But, as I explain below, it's not one year.

Staal has a one year contract that costs 4.2M in real dollars. NYR actually already paid $1M in bonus. So the Wings traded 3.2M for the use of Marc Staal for one year and a 2nd round pick. That actually seems in line with the trade for Patrick Marleau. 6M for a 1st, 3.2M for a 2nd.

Johnson has a four year contract that costs 17.75M in real dollars and has a cap hit of $5M for the next four years. Trade for Johnson... and the Red Wings current salary commitments in 2023 are Anthony Mantha and Tyler Johnson. That's right, Larkin needs a new deal, Raymond, Seider, probably 2021 pick will be looking for a deal, Hronek, Bertuzzi, anyone else they decide to go after.

The cap dump for Staal was good because it was a reasonable cost and Staal (or another defenseman like him who you'd be paying around $3M for) has one year remaining on his deal.

A simple first and Tyler Johnson is a bad deal because you're paying 17.75M (so over 5 times as much) over 4 times as long. Johnson's contract might literally affect contract negotiations in 2022-2023 with some of the Red Wings top players if they landed it. Staal's won't.

Now, Kucherov's injury and the introduction of the Taxi squad concept which might make it so Tampa doesn't even have to do anything has derailed the idea. But one first round pick for a cap dump (and Johnson absolutely is a cap dump for Tampa because they need him gone) of 17.75M in real dollars is a f***ing awful deal when other examples exist that aren't paying anywhere near that.

Hell, Bryan Bickell. To trade 4M of one year of Bryan Bickell, the Blackhawks traded him and Teuvo Teravainen for a 2nd and a 3rd round pick. Teravainen is a 60p 2C in Carolina now and was traded by Chicago knowing that was the caliber prospect he was.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

How has Marc Staal appeared since his eye injury?

Depends on who you ask... if you ask Marc Staal and he's looking in a mirror... uh, he appears a little blurry?

 

[TBF1972]

Over the cap team discussion is about Detroit?

 

[MBH]

I'll just handle it here.

Johnson > Staal. Inarguably. The quality of the player is irrelevant. Tampa is trading me the salary, not the player. If I have a use for the player, that's up to me. If I just hate Tyler Johnson and want to send him to Siberia to play hockey with Polar Bears? That's up to me. Tampa wants/wanted to be rid of $5M to get cap compliant and sign their two RFAs. I'm not giving them a discount because they're giving me a workable 2C. They need all $5M of his money gone to do anything when the whole team is healthy. One year? I take the likely 25-31 pick and run with it. But, as I explain below, it's not one year.

Well that's one area right off the bat where you've got it wrong.
They could trade anyone. Killorn. Johnson. Whoever.
Johson is a guy who would fit in Detroit as a 2C. 2nd unit PP. PK.

Staal has a one year contract that costs 4.2M in real dollars. NYR actually already paid $1M in bonus. So the Wings traded 3.2M for the use of Marc Staal for one year and a 2nd round pick. That actually seems in line with the trade for Patrick Marleau. 6M for a 1st, 3.2M for a 2nd.

Johnson has a four year contract that costs 17.75M in real dollars and has a cap hit of $5M for the next four years. Trade for Johnson... and the Red Wings current salary commitments in 2023 are Anthony Mantha and Tyler Johnson. That's right, Larkin needs a new deal, Raymond, Seider, probably 2021 pick will be looking for a deal, Hronek, Bertuzzi, anyone else they decide to go after.

And we're going to have lots of money to spend. $4.5M real dollars vs $5M cap?
That's of little consequence to us.
There's almost no way in the world a Tyler Johnson contract comes back to bite us.

The cap dump for Staal was good because it was a reasonable cost and Staal (or another defenseman like him who you'd be paying around $3M for) has one year remaining on his deal.

Staal is a lousy hockey player.
I wouldn't pay anywhere near $3M for a defenseman like him.
What did we pay for Merril? Stecher? $2.6M combined.

A simple first and Tyler Johnson is a bad deal because you're paying 17.75M (so over 5 times as much) over 4 times as long. Johnson's contract might literally affect contract negotiations in 2022-2023 with some of the Red Wings top players if they landed it. Staal's won't.

No, it literally won't.
Red Wings are going to dump
Nielsen $5,25
Helm $3.85
Filppula $3M
Glendening $1.8M
Staal $5.7M
Dekeyser $5M
Nemeth $3M
Griess $3,6M
Zetterberg $6.1M
Bernier $3M
Weiss $1.7M
Namestnikov $2m
----
That's $44 million coming off the books.
You don't have to worry about Mantha, since he's signed for 4 years - same as Johnson.

Larkin will get a 20 percent raise assuming the cap rises.Zadina? Unless he blows up, he's not going to more than $4/5M a year. Raymond isn't even signed yet, so no concern there. Hronek gets $4M-5M tops. Seider probably about the same. Fabbri maybe $3-4M
So there's $20M.

There's no scenario where Tyler Johnson's contract hamstrings you unless you go out and sign someone stupid. The only thing the Tyler Johnson deal does is maybe prevent you from taking a salary dump next year.

Now, Kucherov's injury and the introduction of the Taxi squad concept which might make it so Tampa doesn't even have to do anything has derailed the idea. But one first round pick for a cap dump (and Johnson absolutely is a cap dump for Tampa because they need him gone) of 17.75M in real dollars is a f***ing awful deal when other examples exist that aren't paying anywhere near that.
Hell, Bryan Bickell. To trade 4M of one year of Bryan Bickell, the Blackhawks traded him and Teuvo Teravainen for a 2nd and a 3rd round pick. Teravainen is a 60p 2C in Carolina now and was traded by Chicago knowing that was the caliber prospect he was.

Bryan Bickell was a Justin Abdelkader contract.
He had 2 assists in 25 games.
Tyler Johnson is not a Justin Abdelkader contract.

You seem unable to grasp the idea that Tyler Johnson isn't a toxic contract.

 

[SI90]

I’m expecting the isles to somehow Sign Barzal, Greene, and Schneider( 3rd goalie taxi squad)

possibly Matt Martin as well