What has Crosby done in this hypothetical scenario? Unless he retires, he will continue to be putting up better seasons than OV which he has done since 2010.
Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?
- Thread starter DangleBojangle
- Start date
What has Crosby done in this hypothetical scenario? Unless he retires, he will continue to be putting up better seasons than OV which he has done since 2010.
There isn’t a debate on the better regular season resume. Ovi about 50% more goals, more points, more Harts, and significantly more individual trophies. Crosby’s post-season team success is the only reason there’s an overall debate. If Crosby could’ve stayed on the ice more that might not be true. But he didn’t. So we don’t know.
Puckstop40
Registered User
I have Toews ranked just above him and Toews is number 10 all time.
Most hockey history types weight place of birth pretty heavily. It's usually best not to worry about their opinions.
txpd
Registered User
Is Crosby having a better season this season? I mean points wise? As a Crosby supporter I suppose that you find that assists and goals are of equal value and so forth. Last time I checked Ovechkin has more career points than Crosby. It would be my guess that by the end of their careers that situation will remain.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Well, I think about it this way: I have watched more complete hockey games by Bobby Hull than complete rounds of golf by Tiger Woods.
That would not stop me from ranking Tiger Woods as the best golfer of all time.
My personal opinion from personally watching a player is a lot less valuable than universal consensus from insiders who saw 50+ years of the NHL and have a strong opinion about how players rank. If I can collect a whole lot of those opinions, I feel like I’m more capable of discerning the truth out of that consensus (or lack of consensus) than I am of simply watching video until my brain explodes.
maplepred
Go Preds Go!!
- Aug 14, 2011
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What?
Jagr is second all time in points and he’s on the outside looking in?? He’s also only the second player to surpass 1900 points.
Messier is third all time in points.
That’s a crazy list.
My top ten all time would have to be:
Gretzky
Lemieux
Jagr
Messier
Crosby
Orr
Howe
Richard
Hull
Sakic
I think that it's entirely possible that Ovechkin can pass the 3 guys you listed above.
While at this point of his career Ovechkin isn't the overall force he once was he is still a generational goal scorer for players aged 34 and that is going to add to his legacy.
Hockeyholic
Registered User
Hasek is above Sakic. Not close. I debated on putting Messier top ten. But Harvey was so dominant.
How could you possibly think Ovechkin would have more points by the end of their respective careers, given that Crosby has ~20 fewer points in ~170 fewer games, and has outscored Ovechkin (severely) on a point per game basis every single season since 2011? Further, he's outscored Ovechkin on an absolute basis as well since 2011.
Ovechkin: 740 gp - 736 pts
Crosby: 596 gp - 739 pts
Pretty difficult to defend Messier and Sakic's inclusions, especially over Harvey, Bourque, Roy and Hasek (all of whom are probably ahead of Jagr too).
Iapyi
Registered User
20 years from now hockey people will probably look back and recognize that Crosby was a top notch 200' player who excelled and played in all 3 zones.
Ovechkin will be seen as a limited player with a great shot who had a cult like following disregarding the meat and potato aspects of the game but who has the sizzle of being a goal scorer only. Idolized in a casual fan kind of way.
Hull? Naw. Hull was closer to an elite all around offensive force than OV was for a longer time period.
As someone stated, "OV started out like Bobby Hull then morphed into Brett".
I'm sure the Crosby cult will go to great lengths to torture per game/per 60/etc numbers into portraying him as a much more historic player than his actual numbers will say. Just like people do for Forsberg, except Forsberg's game had insane sizzle so he manages to stand out and attract an extra following. Just like they'll have no choice but to downplay Ovechkins unquestioned all around dominance in his prime as you do now and reframe his transition into by far the best post 30yo sniper in the history of the game as a limitation.
No one else will care though. Ovechkin's picture will be up there above Gretzky's where it counts for the single most historic individual nhl achievement while Crosby will have the notoriety Joe Sakic has today give or take
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Probably because Crosby has been “about to pass Ovi” for awhile now. He even did briefly during basically the best run of health in his career. If he stays healthy he has a decent shot to end up with more points. I think most people assume Ovi stays healthier at this point.
You’d expect Crosby’s game to age decently well as he’s never relied on speed to be effective. But then again you’d have expected Ovi’s game to age poorly as he’s been a human wrecking ball for his entire career. Wouldn’t surprise me either way. Probably depends on who retires first.
Chet Manley
Registered User
Longevity is overrated when people have these discussions. Taking a look at a collection of their best seasons would be a better indicator, but then it gets a bit arbitrary on how many. Eight or 10 best seasons seems fair to rule out flash in the pans. How many times in that period where they the best player in the league? Top 5 if other top 100 players are present that same season.
Messier was my favorite player my first 20 years, have had his rookie card on display since getting in a gas station, watched hundreds of games, bla bla bla... he is not a top 5 player since 1980 let alone all time. Rarely the best player in the league after subtracting Gretz/Lemieux/Jagr. Just some randos opinion.
edit: grammar is hard
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Logic dictates that if one player has scored more on an absolute level for ~9 years, and more on a ppg level every single year, that said player will pass the other eventually. Crosby's had a lot of ground to make up, and despite playing a few seasons worth fewer games he's still neck-and-neck. It's not really a toss-up at this stage; Crosby would be the favourite from any statistical analysis.
That said, I'd really rather not turn this thread into a pure Ovechkin vs Crosby thread. The overall comparisons to Jagr, Richard, Beliveau, et al. are more interesting.
Well, what we see from their Hart voting record is that when Richard was top3 in points, he was nominated for Hart, but when he was out of top3, voters were not impressed and did not include him on the ballot (except for one season when he got 2% of the vote).
Ovechkin 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 7, 9
Richard 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 8
On the other hand, when Ovechkin was out of top10 in points (but still top20), Hart voters did have him on the ballot, because he was also winning the goal-scoring race by a significant margin. So it is not all about points.
We can even do an example: in 2015/16, Ovechkin was 15th in points (6 points out of 9th place), but he also won the goal-scoring race with a 52% margin over #10 in goals. He collected 14.1% of the Hart vote that year with 60 people putting him on the ballot and 26 of them ranking him top3 in the league. The voters took him over Kuznetsov, Kopitar, Tavares, Tarasenko, Pavelski, who had more points but apparently less impact.
In 1945/46, Richard was 5th in points, 3 points away from both #2 and #9, but 12 points behind the leader. He was also 4th in goals, 10 goals behind the leader and 7 goals ahead of #10. The voters took him as one of a large group of top10 players on both lists (which were very similar in that season) and no one put Richard on the ballot.
So yes, it is possible to be top20 in points and still have a better season than someone who was top5 in points. It is not all about points.
ALLCAPSALLTHETIME
Great Dane! Love that Eller feller.
Not to mention that Ovie plays LW, traditionally a much lower scoring position than Center.
Ovie is clearly the best LWer in hockey history. Being dominant in one's position should count for a lot.
snag
Registered User
- Feb 22, 2014
- 8,844
- 9,663
So Crosby is like a nice juicy steak and Ovi is a tasty grease burger? I'm down with that. I like me a burger....but I will take the steak cooked to perfection any day.
Wait, are you proposing here that LW is historically lower scoring because ... there are some on-ice defensive responsibilities, or some other factor that prevents left wingers from scoring? You do realize that it's lower scoring because there just aren't as many elite left wingers, right?
If anything, being an elite LW is an advantage in that you wouldn't have to compete with the Howes, Richards, Jagrs of the world at RW, or the Gretzkys, Lemieuxs, Beliveaus at C for all stars.
Being the best LWer shouldn't count for anything other than being better than other LWs. If you're not as dominant as a other players, being a LW doesn't somehow compensate for that.
And, by the way, Bobby Hull is the all-time best LW.
Fantomas
Registered User
- Aug 7, 2012
- 13,307
- 6,641
By virtue of barely playing this season, Crosby is better than Ovechkin.
txpd
Registered User
Limited to the basics yet not meat and potatoes? That's confusing. I have video aids. Which of the below shown skills are limited and not meat or potatoes?
txpd
Registered User
If only he had lightly touched the puck here after someone else made the play instead of making the play he did, he could've gotten a secondary assist and had more potato meats.
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