Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Turin]

I’m actually in favour of putting him top 10 or at least close to it. But not because I’m overrating him based on his current output, but because his scoring consistency now combined with his dominance before he was 26.

 

[glenngineer]

Are we talking just points here? If so, there is some merit to him being in the top 10.

If we're talking top 10 players, I would say no because his point totals won't overcompensate for his lack of winning Cups. Being a top 10 player is about everything in your game, not just scoring points. I think it's great he finally got his Cup but there are a lot of other guys out there who have scored a ton of points and have the Cup wins to show for it. While they may not have more goals than Ovechkin when all is said and done, they have their name on the Cup and I think that has to be weighed into this conversation.

 

[Mike8]

Imagine not putting the greatest goal scorer in NHL history in your top 10.

Hockey has always placed total points as the standard for best offensive player. And this intuitively makes sense: those who create the most goals are very valuable.

The greatest playmaker would not necessarily be a top-10 player, nor would the greatest defensive forward, nor greatest offensive defenseman. It's more about the greatest player.

 

[ScaredStreit]

The crosby ovi debate is so tiring because they are both amazing. If ovi passes Wayne that's a pretty big thing. On the other side, crosby wont be number 1 at anything. Still absolutely amazing all around player. Cue the people who just a few years ago said ovi would never pass Wayne, now saying breaking the goal record wont mean anything. He still might not do it but its definitely a possibility now

Ovechkin is clearly the better goal scorer and 2nd best forward of his generation (that's not a knock to him). But despite in playing in almost 200 more games than Crosby...he only has 20 more points. I have no issues with people saying Ovechkin > Crosby at scoring goals (it's a fact)...or even that they'd prefer him on their team because of it. But to suggest that he's a better overall player than Crosby is just false.

 

[Mike8]

Doesn't crack my Top 20 yet. Close though.

Peak was very short. After that, great sniper but not a true dominating force.

Top 5 sniper ever though.

History is a long time in hockey, like 130 years.

I think that's about right.

 

[Dustin]

Probably just outside. Goalies and dmen kind of mess it up. If it was just forwards more than likely he is in.

 

[ScaredStreit]

With his 8 Rockets, he has already cemented himself as a Top10 player.

If he gets over 800, there is no doubt he is somewhere around 5th-7th best all time. If he gets to 894, people should start to mention him in the conversations for the best players all time (currently people usually mention the Big 4, Gretzky-Howe-Orr-Lemieux, Ovechkin should go as the fifth on that group)

Currently I would rate best all time players (not just NHL, best no matter what league) in tiers like this:

Gretzky
--------------
Howe
Orr
Lemieux
--------------
Hasek
Ovechkin
Bourque
--------------
Richard
Yzerman
Sakic
Roy
Bobby Hull
Dionne
Esposito
--------------
Brett Hull
Selanne
Mikita
Jagr
Messier
Coffey
Lafleur
Brodeur
Chelios
etc

Here's the problem making lists like this...people always leave people out. There's no way Potvin is below many of those players. 3 Norris (should be 4...had one of the biggest snubs in NHL history), captained 4 cups, arguably best player on one of the best dynasties in history, first defensemen to 1,000 points, excelled on both ends of the ice. With all due respect to guys like Coffey...Potvin was clearly the better player.

 

[93LEAFS]

Similar to Crosby, he's in the discussion. Really, there is 4 clear cut guys who need to be there (Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux) and then you can argue a group of people for 4 to somewhere in the teens until you are blue in the face (Crosby, Beliveau, Ovi, Hasek, Harvey, Richard, Esposito, Messier, Bourque, Bobby Hull, Roy, etc)

 

[Thenameless]

Do pure goal scorers get a bit of a bump up people's lists because goal scoring is so hard to consistently achieve on an annual basis? Do they get forgiven a bit for minor holes in their game as a result?

I would argue they should, because guys like Hull, Ovechkin and Gartner who can pump in goals with such regularity are so rare. Not to diminish at all the achievements of more well rounded players, but goals are goals.

So yeah, I'd probably have him in my top 10 and if he passes Gretzky I think it would be very difficult to argue otherwise.

Yes, he certainly brings an X-factor which is invaluable to a hockey game. The pure skill of goal scoring comes at such a premium. He has a great peak, prime, and longevity at it too. But the rest of his game falls very short of some of the rest of the all time greats. It's what makes him hard to rank. I certainly wouldn't want to see him on the other team.

 

[Deebs]

Here's the problem making lists like this...people always leave people out. There's no way Potvin is below many of those players. 3 Norris (should be 4...had one of the biggest snubs in NHL history), captained 4 cups, arguably best player on one of the best dynasties in history, first defensemen to 1,000 points, excelled on both ends of the ice. With all due respect to guys like Coffey...Potvin was clearly the better player.

All around, absolutely.

That's another issue with "who's the best ever" type questions. Best all around player, best offensive player, best defensively....the criteria needs to be clear within the question.

 

[Mike8]

All around, absolutely.

That's another issue with "who's the best ever" type questions. Best all around player, best offensive player, best defensively....the criteria needs to be clear within the question.

The question is 'top 10 player of all time'. It's hard to imagine a scenario where that's not the best all-around player.

 

[Deebs]

The question is 'top 10 player of all time'. It's hard to imagine a scenario where that's not the best all-around player.

Thanks tips

 

[txpd]

Thanks tips

The all time leading goal scorer. Calder Trophy, 3 Harts, 3 Lindsey/Piersons, A Conn Smythe, 8 Rockets with time to add to that total. When in the end he has the highest point total of his era, the most goals in history and more hardware than anyone in his era, its pretty clear that......

 

[Mike8]

The all time leading goal scorer. Calder Trophy, 3 Harts, 3 Lindsey/Piersons, A Conn Smythe, 8 Rockets with time to add to that total. When in the end he has the highest point total of his era, the most goals in history and more hardware than anyone in his era, its pretty clear that......

I'm confused. All time leading goal scorer?

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

Great player, obviously. We’ll see where he is at when he has retired and the dust has settled.

Breaking an unbreakable record would be incredibly persuasive, though.

 

[wetcoast]

Jesus ****ing Christ.

If you want to learn something worthwhile about hockey history head over to the HoH section because none of those bolded have any business being discussed as top 10 players ever.

Liked this post but Hasek and Jagr do have legit top 10 claims.

 

[txpd]

I'm confused. All time leading goal scorer?

I know its not big news but with the help of google you may be able to find a story or two indicating Ovechkin may break Gretzky's all time goal scoring record.

 

[Fantomas]

Similar to Crosby, he's in the discussion. Really, there is 4 clear cut guys who need to be there (Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux) and then you can argue a group of people for 4 to somewhere in the teens until you are blue in the face (Crosby, Beliveau, Ovi, Hasek, Harvey, Richard, Esposito, Messier, Bourque, Bobby Hull, Roy, etc)

The correct take.

 

[Zuluss]

I see some questions in the thread on how one can possibly rank OV ahead of Richard or Jagr, and I am eager to help

One thing OV has on Richard is the Hart voting record
Ovechkin 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 7, 9
Richard 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 8

OV has two more Harts - and two more seasons with some Hart votes. The only thing Richard has on OV is an extra nomination, but it is not even an advantage because back in 2005/06 Hart voters decided to punish rookie OV for being the 1st overall pick and his team missing POs after being dead-last in the league the season prior (who would have thought this team won't make POs!). So in 2005/06 the Hart voters gave OV the 6th place in voting despite him finishing 3rd in both goals and points. The players did the right thing (like they are currently doing for McDavid) and nominated OV for Lindsay (then Pearson).

With that said, I understand that Richard has a way better playoff resume than OV. But in regular season OV has the peak on Richard, OV has the longevity, and OV even passed Richard as a goal-scorer, which is Richard's strongest suit. Something has to give.

A good argument for OV over Jagr starts with All-star team finishes
Jagr 7x 1st, 1x 2nd
OV 8x 1st, 4x 2nd, 2x 3rd

Their best three seasons are similar (Jagr has way more points, Ovechkin has way more goals), but there is no doubt that if one looks at their best 5 or best 7 seasons, Jagr is ahead of Ovechkin.
The issue is, Jagr has little outside of his best 8 seasons. Ovechkin is in the talk for the best LW pretty much every season, and this season is his 15th. In this regard, Ovechkin is like Bourque, who was top5 in Norris voting almost his whole career, and that brings Bourque ahead of defensemen with probably higher peak. Ovechkin is doing a similar thing on LW.

So that makes OV the third-best winger ever, behind only Howe and Bobby Hull. Hull has been my personal favorite for #5 all-time my whole life, so I am not ready to argue against him yet, but Ovechkin's post-30 career is definitely better already, and he is not done yet.

I would conclude with one extra point: if you rank the best goal-scorer ever outside of top10 players all-time, there is something wrong with how you rank players. Maybe it is just my love of goal-scoring wingers, but as Ovechkin is taking the mantle of the best goal-scorer ever from Bobby Hull, the reasons to keep Ovechkin out of top10 players all-time start looking petty. We should be ranking players on what they did, not on what they did not do, and appreciate greatness rather than look for blemishes.

 

[filinski77]

No bias with this guy!

Crosby no place on the list despite being his generations by far most points per game and 6th all time. Also Crosby has been one of the top 5 point producers in almost any year of his career besides the 3 years he was injured. Even in those years he led the league in PPG two of those years and the other year he was 2nd and only a hundredth of a point from 1st. Crosby has never not been in the top 10 when healthy.

OV literally has been out of the top 10 in scoring 5 of the last 9 years. He only had a short 4 year period he competed for the best player in the he league with Crosby and Malkin with all 3 winning a scoring title. Crosby won his at 19 years old. Even during those 4 years more people believed Crosby was the best player in the league. Since that time period OV hasn't even been a factor for top point producer and when compared to other all time greats his peak was way to short. For example Jagr won 5 scoring titles and had several other years as a top 3 point producer.

People acting like all time goals or all time points makes you one of the best is ridiculous. Ron Francis is 5th all time in points and he was never one of the top 5 players in the league in any year of his career. As a Penguin fan I watched him in his career and he is not close to any of the Pens big 4 of Lemieux, Crosby, Jagr, and Malkin. So just like Francis it won't matter if OV finished high up on all time goal list when his overall play was not near the top 5 in points for much of his career. I am not ridiculous like this guy and going to leave him out of top 20 like he did Crosby but he is out of my top 10.

You realized the not only did Ovechkin have the superior rookie season (Calder), seasons 3-5 Ovechkin won the Lindsay in 3 straight years as the 'leagues most outstanding player'?

Regarding your 2nd point, I definitely agree that strict points or goals don't necessarily matter that much, but breaking Gretzky's record would finally give Ovechkin the recognition and appreciation that SO many people are lacking for him right now.

Ovechkin TODAY is:
- 1st all time in times leading the league in goals (a record that may never be broken)
- 1st all time in times leading the league in goals/gp
-3rd all time in Ted Lindsay wins
- 4th all time in Hart wins
-8th all time in leading the league in points/gp

That alone is a resume deserving of a top player of all-time. Then once you consider how close he may come to the total goal record, despite playing in such a lower-scoring era, it really cements what he truly deserves, regardless of the many that hate him.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Are we talking just points here? If so, there is some merit to him being in the top 10.

If we're talking top 10 players, I would say no because his point totals won't overcompensate for his lack of winning Cups. Being a top 10 player is about everything in your game, not just scoring points. I think it's great he finally got his Cup but there are a lot of other guys out there who have scored a ton of points and have the Cup wins to show for it. While they may not have more goals than Ovechkin when all is said and done, they have their name on the Cup and I think that has to be weighed into this conversation.

So your using the fact that he doesn’t have MORE cups against him? What kind of logic is that? I mean sure there are a ton of guys who have scored a lot of points, but that doesn’t mean they are or we’re better than Ovechkin at any point in time. His peak alone puts him in some elite company. Not many players have 3 Lindsays and 3 Harts, that alone puts him past so many. He also is the best goal scorer of his generation, and possibly of all time. I don’t understand what other players your referring to that put up big points and have cups that could be in the conversation, but in the end he has a cup AND smythe.

Hockey is about points. Gretzky and Lemieux were not known for anything else but their offense. Bobby Orr revolutionized the defensive position due to his offense, Howe’s longevity at such a high level got him the legacy because it was his offensive output that was so amazing.

Ovechkin arguably does better than everyone else who has ever played, and that’s score goals. Unlike other goal scorers in Brett, Bossy, Esposito, Ovechkin not only has longevity but overall just being more dominant for a lot longer and during the era he did it in. His peak alone puts him above most players they you could consider “better” or have won more cups.

I don’t see how he isn’t a top 10 player of all time. Even if he’s in the 8-10 range or 7-9, he’s had one hell of a career and one hell of an impact on the game of hockey. He’s also almost unanimously second to another player who is consistently seen as a top 10 player of all time.

 

[GreatGonzo]

No bias with this guy!

Crosby no place on the list despite being his generations by far most points per game and 6th all time. Also Crosby has been one of the top 5 point producers in almost any year of his career besides the 3 years he was injured. Even in those years he led the league in PPG two of those years and the other year he was 2nd and only a hundredth of a point from 1st. Crosby has never not been in the top 10 when healthy.

OV literally has been out of the top 10 in scoring 5 of the last 9 years. He only had a short 4 year period he competed for the best player in the he league with Crosby and Malkin with all 3 winning a scoring title. Crosby won his at 19 years old. Even during those 4 years more people believed Crosby was the best player in the league. Since that time period OV hasn't even been a factor for top point producer and when compared to other all time greats his peak was way to short. For example Jagr won 5 scoring titles and had several other years as a top 3 point producer.

People acting like all time goals or all time points makes you one of the best is ridiculous. Ron Francis is 5th all time in points and he was never one of the top 5 players in the league in any year of his career. As a Penguin fan I watched him in his career and he is not close to any of the Pens big 4 of Lemieux, Crosby, Jagr, and Malkin. So just like Francis it won't matter if OV finished high up on all time goal list when his overall play was not near the top 5 in points for much of his career. I am not ridiculous like this guy and going to leave him out of top 20 like he did Crosby but he is out of my top 10.

Francis never lead the league in points, he has 5 top 10 point finishes, his highest being 4th. Ovechkin has 8, 4 in the top 3 and 6 in the top 5. Francis didn’t win 3 Harts, his highest finish was 6th, he didn’t win 3 Lindsays, 8 Rockets, or a smythe. It would be different if he was a prolific goal scorer with not a lot of dominance to show for it, except he’s lead the league in goals more times than anyone. That means something. For all the points Francis put up, and for all his consistency....he never reached the heights Ovechkin reached or had the consistency at a high level that Ovechkin maintained. Ovechkin also did all this in a significantly lower scoring era where as Francis played in some of the highest.

I agree leaving Crosby off the top 20 is insane but I feel They should be reasonably close to each other regardless. Ovechkin had a superior peak than Crosby and Malkin and that isn’t debatable. Injuries or not, you can’t dominate if you aren’t playing and his ability to stay healthy and be impactful counts for something.

 

[bobholly39]

So far in this thread I've learned that Mike Gartner is a fringe top 10 player of all time, and that Pat Lafontaine is better than Ovi.

Cool.

 

[Yackiberg8]

With his 8 Rockets, he has already cemented himself as a Top10 player.

If he gets over 800, there is no doubt he is somewhere around 5th-7th best all time. If he gets to 894, people should start to mention him in the conversations for the best players all time (currently people usually mention the Big 4, Gretzky-Howe-Orr-Lemieux, Ovechkin should go as the fifth on that group)

Currently I would rate best all time players (not just NHL, best no matter what league) in tiers like this:

Gretzky
--------------
Howe
Orr
Lemieux
--------------
Hasek
Ovechkin
Bourque
--------------
Richard
Yzerman
Sakic
Roy
Bobby Hull
Dionne
Esposito
--------------
Brett Hull
Selanne
Mikita
Jagr
Messier
Coffey
Lafleur
Brodeur
Chelios
etc

How do Ovie fans expect anyone to take them seriously when they dont even put CRosby in the top 25?

 

[GreatSaveEssensa]

Yes.

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Howe
5. Richard
6. Beliveau
7. Crosby
8. Ovechkin
9. Jagr
10. Hull

11. Harvey
12. Morenz
13. Lafleur
14. Messier
15. Shore
16. Roy
17. Hasek
18. Bourque
19. Lidstrom
20. Esposito/Mikita

Hasek at 17??? C’mom man