Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby didn't do anything for the Pens during his prime either. It was all Malkin. See how this works?

Except it makes no sense with Crosby.

 

[Fataldogg]

And? lol guy can even finish top 10 in scoring or even a ppg most years.

Winning the Rocket is more impressive than finishing top-10 because of secondary assists.

I dont know why Penguin fans are hell bent on diminishing Ovechkin. As a Rangers fan, I 100% believe Ovechkin is a top-10 player of all time [and clearly better than Pronger].

 

[Fixxer]

In terms of goal-scoring, it's him, Gretzky (or a healthy Lemieux). In terms of top 10 in league history, borderline.
I know he play a physical game (or used to) but his overall play has always been lackluster. So therefore, many guys could get ahead of him. He had various doubtful seasons, goals were ELITE but 20 some assists and no defensice implication, no forechecking... which makes him out of the talk IMO.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Players GPG drops when he plays games past his prime, what a shocker!

Had Bossy played more games at 30+ years, his GPG would have dropped quite a bit. Same with Bure. No reason to compare their GPG with players who played full careers and a lot of games past their primes

Nah. Those 3 are up there and won't ever be surpassed by Ovechkin as better goal scorers.

 

[edog37]

What does that mean? Because Ovechkin certainly put the puck in the net more times than Bossy did and without the help that Bossy had. Bossy didn't lead the League in goalscoring nearly as many times as Ovechkin and when he did, it was not by the same margin. Bossy never sniffed the Hart or the Art Ross. Bossy was routinely called "3rd best player on his own team". Bossy never scored another goal after he turned 30 (which also had a great positive effect on his GPG). What does it mean "he was a better scorer"?

And I LOVE Mike Bossy.

Bossy was a more gifted goal scorer. A true sniper

 

[edog37]

Naw, there are plenty who see past the sizzle and recognize he is very limited as a hockey player, dude has a great shot though.

That’s a fair read.

 

[edog37]

LMAOOOO sure. Mike "2 rocket" Bossy

Ps: before you give the lame "no rockets because Gretzky/Lemieux" excuse, he came 2nd to Gretzky 1x, never to Lemieux.

Bossy had nine straight 50 goal seasons...yeah he was a better goal scorer...

 

[GreatGonzo]

Bossy had nine straight 50 goal seasons...yeah he was a better goal scorer...

He wasn’t “better” in the sense of being more dominant or being more consistent. He scored more goals in an era where scoring more was significantly easier, he also did it with Trottier and Potvin feeding him the puck. You have take all that into context if your going to proclaim something. even take Gretzky out of the picture, he still doesn’t come close to leading the league in goals like Ovechkin has.

You can’t say someone is better when they weren’t even the best pure goal scorer of their generation. Bossy was no doubt one of the best all time, while Ovechkins goal scoring achievements can’t be ignored.

Bossy was a more gifted goal scorer. A true sniper

Based on what though?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Ovechkin has been doing this since he was 26 so no.....

Since 26(2011)
-First in goals
-First in ES goals
-Third in points
-Fourth in ES points
-Sixth in PPG(with 500 games played)
-6 Rockets
-1 Hart/2x Nominee
-2x Lindsay finalists
-3x First Team AS
-4x Second Team AS
——————
Playoffs since 2011:
-First in goals
-Fourth in points
-Fourth in PPG
-Stanley cup Champ
-Conn smythe

It’s so weird and almost awkward how Ovechkins resume Post 26 is STILL amazing and a dominant one.....and yes posters like you enjoy putting down his play since then as mediocre....

 

[edog37]

He wasn’t “better” in the sense of being more dominant or being more consistent. He scored more goals in an era where scoring more was significantly easier, he also did it with Trottier and Potvin feeding him the puck. You have take all that into context if your going to proclaim something. even take Gretzky out of the picture, he still doesn’t come close to leading the league in goals like Ovechkin has.

You can’t say someone is better when they weren’t even the best pure goal scorer of their generation. Bossy was no doubt one of the best all time, while Ovechkins goal scoring achievements can’t be ignored.



Based on what though?

The nine straight seasons of 50 goals for starters. The 50 goals in 50 games (one of 5 in NHL history). The 4 straight Stanley Cups & 5 straight Final appearances. The only player in NHL history to score the Cup winning goal in consecutive seasons, most 60 goal seasons, & the highest average goals per game over a career. Bossy was a far better goal scorer than Ovechkin.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Since 26(2011)
-First in goals
-First in ES goals
-Third in points
-Fourth in ES points
-Sixth in PPG(with 500 games played)
-6 Rockets
-1 Hart/2x Nominee
-2x Lindsay finalists
-3x First Team AS
-4x Second Team AS
——————
Playoffs since 2011:
-First in goals
-Fourth in points
-Fourth in PPG
-Stanley cup Champ
-Conn smythe

It’s so weird and almost awkward how Ovechkins resume Post 26 is STILL amazing and a dominant one.....and yes posters like you enjoy putting down his play since then as mediocre....

Impressive. Second best of his era for sure. Though that’s because Malkin has had injury troubles

 

[missingchicklet]

No way the best goal scorer ever, adjusted for era, is not top ten. If Ovi played in an era in which goalies were Smurfs compared to this era and defense was not as good as today, then he would have blown the record books to shreds in regard to goals scored.

 

[edog37]

No way the best goal scorer ever, adjusted for era, is not top ten. If Ovi played in an era in which goalies were Smurfs compared to this era and defense was not as good as today, then he would have blown the record books to shreds in regard to goals scored.

recency bias

 

[GreatGonzo]

The nine straight seasons of 50 goals for starters. The 50 goals in 50 games (one of 5 in NHL history). The 4 straight Stanley Cups & 5 straight Final appearances. The only player in NHL history to score the Cup winning goal in consecutive seasons, most 60 goal seasons, & the highest average goals per game over a career. Bossy was a far better goal scorer than Ovechkin.

So Ovechkin leading the league in goals and ES goals more than anyone doesn’t matter? All in a significantly harder era to score in? Bossy lead the league in goals twice, Ovechkin eight times. That’s very significant.

playing on a dynasty shouldn’t get you more points. You said Bossy is the better goal scorer, I don’t see how having more Stanley cups has to do with that...

Of course his numbers are better, his career was shorter, while Ovechkin has been longer and significantly better goal scoring wise. Even if yo6 adjust for era, Ovechkin comes out better.

Impressive. Second best of his era for sure. Though that’s because Malkin has had injury troubles

So now your impressed? What happened to Ovechkin being over the hill since 26? Second best to Crosby isn’t to bad but I noticed that flex you had to throw in there and it’s really odd.

It’s part of the game, Malkin arguably could be seen as better than Crosby if not for injuries as well. At their best, Malkin was arguably more dominant. He just couldn’t be consistent.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Bossy had nine straight 50 goal seasons...yeah he was a better goal scorer...

All those 50 goal seasons and a better goal scorer yet only 2 rockets lol.

 

[edog37]

So Ovechkin leading the league in goals and ES goals more than anyone doesn’t matter? All in a significantly harder era to score in? Bossy lead the league in goals twice, Ovechkin eight times. That’s very significant.

playing on a dynasty shouldn’t get you more points. You said Bossy is the better goal scorer, I don’t see how having more Stanley cups has to do with that...

Of course his numbers are better, his career was shorter, while Ovechkin has been longer and significantly better goal scoring wise. Even if yo6 adjust for era, Ovechkin comes out better.

so you can’t admit that the facts outweigh your bias. Got it. You asked for reasons I gave you NHL records that Bossy set.

To your point about the Isles dynasty, have the Caps not been competitive? Upper tier? Granted they usually were rail roaded by the Pens, but that team hasn’t been a slouch either. So yeah getting it done when it counts the most goes into the equation. Bossy found a way to get it done. Ovechkin not so much. So by any metric, Bossy was the better goal scorer.

 

[edog37]

All those 50 goal seasons and a better goal scorer yet only 2 rockets lol.

The Rocket Richard didn’t exist until 1999, so anything more you care to add...

 

[Ted Hoffman]

The nine straight seasons of 50 goals for starters. The 50 goals in 50 games (one of 5 in NHL history). The 4 straight Stanley Cups & 5 straight Final appearances. The only player in NHL history to score the Cup winning goal in consecutive seasons, most 60 goal seasons, & the highest average goals per game over a career. Bossy was a far better goal scorer than Ovechkin.

Bossy had all those 50-goal seasons. Bossy's rookie season, the average goals per game in the NHL was 6.59; every other year of his career, it was over 7 and most years it was over 7.50. Ovechkin's rookie season, the average goals per game in the NHL was 6.05; it's been under 6 every other year of his career and it's been under 5.50 for quite a few of them. Or, if you want to look at it another way: the league-average save% when Bossy played was .887 in his rookie years, fell to .881 and then .880 and then was more like .873 the rest of his career. Ovechkin? The league-average save% was .899 in his rookie year, .903 the year after, and has been over .905 every year since including 7 seasons above .909.

4 straight Cups, 5 straight Finals appearances. In an era where there were 16-21 teams and dynasties like that were common. That was also with Hall-of-Famers Bryan Trottier, Clark Gillies, Dennis Potvin and Billy Smith and HHOF coach Al Arbour in charge for everything. I don't know if anyone else on the Caps is a reasonable shot to make the HHOF outside of Backstrom right now, and Barry Trotz (who I think will make the HHOF) was there for exactly 4 years and has been one of 6 head coaches Ovechkin has played under.

Only player to score Cup-winning goals in back-to-back seasons. Great talking point, really irrelevant when comparing greatness because "game-winning goals" are more a result of randomness than anything.

Most 60 goals seasons. See "higher-scoring era" above.

Highest average goals per game over a career. Again, see "higher-scoring era" and then add "retired at 31, before his performance had declined such that it would have pulled his GPG down.

But maybe this puts it all in perspective best. Bossy, in an era of 7+ goals per game, had 573 goals in 752 games with 180 of them on the PP. Ovechkin, going from the same age 21-30 period Bossy's career spanned, logged 473 goals in 758 games, 174 on the PP, in an era where goal-scoring averaged at least 2 GPG less than what Bossy played in.

I think Mike Bossy is one of the game's greatest snipers ever and his accurate shot is legendary, but it's pretty clear that Ovechkin's goal-scoring prowess tops Bossy's and it's not even close.

 

[edog37]

Bossy had all those 50-goal seasons. Bossy's rookie season, the average goals per game in the NHL was 6.59; every other year of his career, it was over 7 and most years it was over 7.50. Ovechkin's rookie season, the average goals per game in the NHL was 6.05; it's been under 6 every other year of his career and it's been under 5.50 for quite a few of them. Or, if you want to look at it another way: the league-average save% when Bossy played was .887 in his rookie years, fell to .881 and then .880 and then was more like .873 the rest of his career. Ovechkin? The league-average save% was .899 in his rookie year, .903 the year after, and has been over .905 every year since including 7 seasons above .909.

4 straight Cups, 5 straight Finals appearances. In an era where there were 16-21 teams and dynasties like that were common. That was also with Hall-of-Famers Bryan Trottier, Clark Gillies, Dennis Potvin and Billy Smith and HHOF coach Al Arbour in charge for everything. I don't know if anyone else on the Caps is a reasonable shot to make the HHOF outside of Backstrom right now, and Barry Trotz (who I think will make the HHOF) was there for exactly 4 years and has been one of 6 head coaches Ovechkin has played under.

Only player to score Cup-winning goals in back-to-back seasons. Great talking point, really irrelevant when comparing greatness because "game-winning goals" are more a result of randomness than anything.

Most 60 goals seasons. See "higher-scoring era" above.

Highest average goals per game over a career. Again, see "higher-scoring era" and then add "retired at 31, before his performance had declined such that it would have pulled his GPG down.

But maybe this puts it all in perspective best. Bossy, in an era of 7+ goals per game, had 573 goals in 752 games with 180 of them on the PP. Ovechkin, going from the same age 21-30 period Bossy's career spanned, logged 473 goals in 758 games, 174 on the PP, in an era where goal-scoring averaged at least 2 GPG less than what Bossy played in.

I think Mike Bossy is one of the game's greatest snipers ever and his accurate shot is legendary, but it's pretty clear that Ovechkin's goal-scoring prowess tops Bossy's and it's not even close.

recency bias. The reason why dynasties were more common was lack of free agency. Plus, even in a higher scoring era, Bossy stood out & that’s the difference. It wasn’t a league full of Bossys.

Thing is those numbers are still official records. So shall we discount a bunch of Gretzky’s & Lemieux’s points as well to fit your bias?

 

[Video Nasty]

People have constantly understated Bossy’s goal scoring finishes by scoffing and snickering at him having only 2 retroactive Rockets.

Take out Gretzky/Kurri and Lemieux, Bossy virtually finished at least top 3 in his 8 of his first 9 seasons. Players like McDonald having their career years basically being the only times that Bossy got beat by someone other than two of the greatest (and Kurri who is at least a Stamkos equivalent but with the greatest player to set him up) to ever play. He still scored 60 and was second when McDonald went off for 66.

When Ovechkin lost Rockets, he got soundly beat by lesser players. When Stamkos scored 60, Ovechkin was miles behind with 38. When Ovechkin finished with 32 the year before, he got beat by a long list of players far below his capabilities like Perry, Kesler, Sedin to name just a few of the 15 or so names ahead of him in 2010-2011. Same goes for his other poor year by his standards of 2016-2017. His best competition has been Stamkos and quite frankly, it’s a joke.

Bossy finished 2nd in goals with 53 goals as a rookie to Guy LaFleur, another all time great.

Then 1, tied-3rd, 1, 1, 2, tied-4th, 1, 1, missed 17 games in his final season and with a back half of what it was would have likely seen another 50 and at least 3rd. 2 Rockets becomes 5, 2 runner ups and 2 third places and a 4th in just 10 years. He didn’t play the last 3 seasons of the 80s and still had the 5th most goals of the decade. Second to only to Gretzky overall during his playing career.

Who are the all time great scorers Ovechkin has had to contend with over the past 15 years? How many Rockets would he have if there had been a Gretzky/Kurri/Lemieux equivalent during his career? It wouldn’t be 8 and counting in 15 seasons.

I understand players can only play against the hand they are dealt and how they dominate against their peers is relevant (yet this stance is ignored by detractors when putting Gretzky’s dominance into context).

But you know what? As impressive as it is that Ovechkin is the only guy who can get 50 goals at all, it is just as sad that there has existed only 1 other elite goal scorer who has missed plenty of time to make these races almost irrelevant. Not every year has been like this one where Ovechkin is one of 3 40 goal scorers before the 60 game mark has even passed.

How many seasons out of 15 has Ovechkin been contending with at least two other players who will score 50+ when he scores 50 himself? This could be the fourth? From the lockout through last season, this is what would win the Rocket regardless of the final total the winner had: 44, 44, 47, 41, 45, 51. Stiff competition.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

recency bias. The reason why dynasties were more common was lack of free agency. Plus, even in a higher scoring era, Bossy stood out & that’s the difference. It wasn’t a league full of Bossys.

You clearly don't understand what recency bias is. There is, however, a fixation by you on raw stats as the be-all, end-all. [Which I'll point out the absurdity of shortly.]

For your claim that "it wasn't a league full of Bossys" it's sure as hell not been a league full of Ovechkins either - unless you really want to compare lists of players who've put up at least 50 goals in a season while each guy was in the league.

Thing is those numbers are still official records. So shall we discount a bunch of Gretzky’s & Lemieux’s points as well to fit your bias?

Great point. Let's explore this idea for a bit.

Georges Hainsworth holds the record for most shutouts in a season with 22 in 1928-29; Alec Connell had 15 shutouts in 1925-26 and 1927-28, the latter season also seeing Hal Winkeler post 15 shutouts. Tony Esposito is the only other goalie to put up 15 shutouts in a season, that coming in 1969-70. Dominik Hasek only had 13 in a year. Terry Sawchuk (who had 11+ four times), Martin Brodeur (10+ four times), Tiny Thompson (10+ 3 times) and Glenn Hall (only one season ever in double-digits) only maxed out at 12. Ken Dryden's career-high 10 wasn't even half of Hainsworth's record. Jacques Plante's career high was only 9.

Before Brodeur took over the top spot for career shutouts, Sawchuk held the mark at 103; Hainsworth was second at 94, Hall third at 84, Jacques Plante next at 82, then Connell, Hasek and Tiny Thompson all tied at 81. Esposito's 76 is currently 10th. Dryden's 48 wasn't even half of Sawchuk, and barely half of Hainsworth.

Career GAA: Connell is #1 at 1.92, Hainsworth is next at 1.93, Charlie Gardner and Lorne Chabot the next two at 2.02 and 2.03 respectively and Thompson after that at 2.07. Hasek is only 8th at 2.20, Dryden next at 2.24 and Brodeur's 2.24 right after that; Plante is down at 22nd at 2.38, Hall doesn't show up until 43rd at 2.50, Sawchuk is 47th at 2.50 as well. Esposito's career 2.93 GAA is so high that we just disqualify him for the rest of this discussion.

So, by combining a few records using your logic about only worrying about records, George Hainsworth is the greatest goalie ever. Alec Connell is clearly #2, Tiny Thompson is probably 3rd. Hasek and Brodeur are a coin-toss for 4th, Sawchuk is probably over Hall next (though that GAA clouds things) and Plante is next, and Dryden doesn't sniff anything especially since he had fewer wins than everyone there except Connell and Hainsworth and too frequently was way behind everyone on those shutout marks.

I mean, it's all so simple, right?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Who are the all time great scorers Ovechkin has had to contend with over the past 15 years? How many Rockets would he have if there had been a Gretzky/Kurri/Lemieux equivalent during his career? It wouldn’t be 8 and counting in 15 seasons.

Let's kick league scoring today up to 1980s levels and see how many "merely good" players suddenly start looking great. Or, let's rewind the clock back to the 1980s and drag scoring levels down to the mid-5s per game and see how many goals Kurri, Kerr, Goulet, Anderson, Vaive, et. al. pot and whether guys like Wayne Babych, Al Secord, Denis Maruk, Blaine Stoughton, John Ogrodnick and Bobby Carpenter even get to 35 once in a season.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The Rocket Richard didn’t exist until 1999, so anything more you care to add...

Rocket, 1st in goals same thing. Point is Bossy only did it twice. Most overrated player ever.

 

[Video Nasty]

Let's kick league scoring today up to 1980s levels and see how many "merely good" players suddenly start looking great. Or, let's rewind the clock back to the 1980s and drag scoring levels down to the mid-5s per game and see how many goals Kurri, Kerr, Goulet, Anderson, Vaive, et. al. pot and whether guys like Wayne Babych, Al Secord, Denis Maruk, Blaine Stoughton, John Ogrodnick and Bobby Carpenter even get to 35 once in a season.

It’s not some mystery to me that 60 goals is worth a little more or less in different eras. I’m thinking about competition and I’m talking about obvious all-time great players like Gretzky and Lemieux who transcend whatever era they play. I’m talking about a player like Kurri who with Gretzky is an all time great goal scorer and without Gretzky is a rough comparable to current day Stamkos as a goal scorer (or at his peak when he was healthy).

When Bossy lost Rockets (and taking out the aforementioned players), he either lost to another all time great like LaFleur or lost to players playing lights out like McDonald and it was close (is still a Hall of Famer mind you). It’s similar to how McDavid lost to Kucherov having a career year last season.

When Ovechkin lost, he got smoked by a much longer list of players who are mostly not going to be even Hall of Famers of their own era, let alone players like Gretzky and Lemieux who would hand him his lunch year in and year out.

Overall, his competition in the goal scoring department has been very weak yet it doesn’t surprise me it’s hardly mentioned.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

People have constantly understated Bossy’s goal scoring finishes by scoffing and snickering at him having only 2 retroactive Rockets.

Take out Gretzky/Kurri and Lemieux, Bossy virtually finished at least top 3 in his 8 of his first 9 seasons. Players like McDonald having their career years basically being the only times that Bossy got beat by someone other than two of the greatest (and Kurri who is at least a Stamkos equivalent but with the greatest player to set him up) to ever play. He still scored 60 and was second when McDonald went off for 66.

When Ovechkin lost Rockets, he got soundly beat by lesser players. When Stamkos scored 60, Ovechkin was miles behind with 38. When Ovechkin finished with 32 the year before, he got beat by a long list of players far below his capabilities like Perry, Kesler, Sedin to name just a few of the 15 or so names ahead of him in 2010-2011. Same goes for his other poor year by his standards of 2016-2017. His best competition has been Stamkos and quite frankly, it’s a joke.

Bossy finished 2nd in goals with 53 goals as a rookie to Guy LaFleur, another all time great.

Then 1, tied-3rd, 1, 1, 2, tied-4th, 1, 1, missed 17 games in his final season and with a back half of what it was would have likely seen another 50 and at least 3rd. 2 Rockets becomes 5, 2 runner ups and 2 third places and a 4th in just 10 years. He didn’t play the last 3 seasons of the 80s and still had the 5th most goals of the decade. Second to only to Gretzky overall during his playing career.

Who are the all time great scorers Ovechkin has had to contend with over the past 15 years? How many Rockets would he have if there had been a Gretzky/Kurri/Lemieux equivalent during his career? It wouldn’t be 8 and counting in 15 seasons.

I understand players can only play against the hand they are dealt and how they dominate against their peers is relevant (yet this stance is ignored by detractors when putting Gretzky’s dominance into context).

But you know what? As impressive as it is that Ovechkin is the only guy who can get 50 goals at all, it is just as sad that there has existed only 1 other elite goal scorer who has missed plenty of time to make these races almost irrelevant. Not every year has been like this one where Ovechkin is one of 3 40 goal scorers before the 60 game mark has even passed.

How many seasons out of 15 has Ovechkin been contending with at least two other players who will score 50+ when he scores 50 himself? This could be the fourth? From the lockout through last season, this is what would win the Rocket regardless of the final total the winner had: 44, 44, 47, 41, 45, 51. Stiff competition.

Blah blah blah nice excuses for Bossy.

Rockets:
Ovechkin: 8
Bobby Hull: 7
Esposito: 6
Gretzky/Howe/Richard: 5
Lemieux/Brett Hull : 3
Bossy: 2

GPG wins:
Ovechkin: 9
Bobby Hull: 8
Lemieux: 6
Richard/Esposito: 5
Gretzky/Howe/Brett Hull: 3
Bossy: 1

Combined:
Ovechkin: 17
Hull: 15
Esposito: 11
Richard: 10
Lemieux: 9
Gretzky/Howe: 8
Brett Hull: 6
Bossy: 3

You wanna diminish OV fine, but then explain everyone else who shits on Bossy?