Post-Game Talk (GBU): Outcoached

[joshjull]

Boston doesn't get in trouble for anything. He could come off the bench with a shotgun and take out two refs and at most he'd have a phone call hearing.

Too true



I do wonder though if Ennis gets a hearing over his hit on Marchand

 

[mikemcburn]

He is 6 Months removed from the second leading scorer on team Canada for the 2014 iihf. I'm positive a team would gladly trade for him. Sit him for a few games with an undisclosed injury and give him a *conditioning stint* to try to fire him up. But this team is actually worst than last years.

Yep, and only 11 games off from a 20 goal season on a team that is in a rut across the board. Hodgson is in good (bad) company, with 30+ goal scorer Moulson now 16 games into his drought, Stafford leading all forwards with his -8, and Zads (with his whole 6mins of ice time) being the only even guy on the roster.

The undisclosed/conditioning stint is interesting, but... Well, is (further) humiliating a kid the best or only way to "fire him up"? And really, is Hodgson's problem that he's not "fired up"? Can he even be "fired up" the way that would work to fit him into the team Nolan is trying to shape?

Gotta be better way to coach - and motivate - this team.

 

[Kublakhan]

good.. we lost..

Bad.. we still got a point..

Ugly... Cains are still worse than us

 

[Herman Hessian]

Ennis was wondering why Stafford was out of position.

then he needs to take on board that - as well as actually playing the game - Staff has to constantly assimilate and verify his mental database of statistics in real time as he plays to ensure that he's in a position to be able to answer any subsequent questions instantly and accurately to prove that he really, really cares - that matters just as much as simple hockey sense...

 

[mikemcburn]

then he needs to take on board that - as well as actually playing the game - Staff has to constantly assimilate and verify his mental database of statistics in real time as he plays to ensure that he's in a position to be able to answer any subsequent questions instantly and accurately to prove that he really, really cares - that matters just as much as simple hockey sense...

W00t W00t! We got the winner of the Hyperbole Mania contest!

 

[krt88]

good.. we lost..

Bad.. we still got a point..

Ugly... Cains are still worse than us

I live in NC and all 43 Canes fans are doom and gloom, but they have been blasted with injuries. They should get better. However, they are a soft team. We may well be competing with them for the worst record all season.

I may pick on Canes fans but the Raleigh sports station gave away Canes season tickets for two weeks and the contest involved two contestants each time. All they had to do with impersonate the announcer on the radio. That is bush league. A season ticket giveaway in Buffalo has thousands involved and the contest is somewhat challenging.

 

[Herman Hessian]

W00t W00t! We got the winner of the Hyperbole Mania contest!

you really, really needed me to post one of these, huh ?



wow....

 

[mikemcburn]

you really, really needed me to post one of these, huh ?



wow....

It's an anon hockey chatter board, Herman. Personally I wouldn't suggest taking anything too seriously, but enjoy yourself however it fancies your nature.

 

[Herman Hessian]

It's an anon hockey chatter board, Herman. Personally I wouldn't suggest taking anything too seriously, but enjoy yourself however it fancies your nature.

wearing mah new badge with pride !

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

What's the problem with CoHo, is it confidence-issues?

 

[mikemcburn]

wearing mah new badge with pride !

OMG! Scary!

And also >

Happy Halloween

 

[mikemcburn]

What's the problem with CoHo, is it confidence-issues?

Hope it hasn't gotten that far. Me, I'm just not seeing how what he brings actually fits with the game plan, for the next couple seasons too.

Kinda see him as a Henrik Sedin type, though without the benefit of 20+ years developing in step with a mind-reading twin And also without the benefit of having been able to come into a top six role after developing 2-4 years behind stable and genuine top sixers.

And before anyone leaps down my throat - no, I'm not suggesting Hodgson is or will become the same "elite" player Henrik has proven to be.

Only that he has some similar styles (more cerebral, less physical, etc.) issues (slower skating, not hard on the puck, weak forcheck, etc.), and offensive talents (play-making, soft hands, vision, shot). Heck, even his numbers (offensive production, defensive struggles, face-offs, etc.) are comparable to those of Henrik over the same rookie and sophomore years.

Henrik of course has overcome the issues of his so-called "Sedin Sister" days, and his projected offensive talents were fully developed. It's with the similarities in mind and seeing how Henrik flushed out, that I don't think Hodgson is, by definition, a bust because he's struggling along with the rest of the team.

He just doesn't seem like a good fit for this roster and coaching at this time. IMHO, anyway.

Hopefully it hasn't, and doesn't, evolve into a confidence issue.

EDIT: I may have my recollections confused re: their respective defensive stats from the same age and be thinking instead of someone else, oops if that's the case.

 

[old kummelweck]

I sure hope they send Reinhart back. I don't see the point of 'developing' a player in the NHL if he never touches the puck in an NHL game because the team has no puck possession game.

 

[Tapu Coco]

Yes Murray does. Particularly when it comes to the youngsters and where they should be playing thats best for their development. This should be well known at this point.



Not only is it unreasonable its uninformed. Among forwards only Ennis gets more ice time than Girgs and Risto has been on our 2nd pairing for the last 3 games averaging 18min.

The problem here is you think Nolan is the one that sent the young guys to where they are right now. He's not. You also think the "treatment" that Reinhart and Zadorov are getting is indicative of how any other young player will be treated. Thats not the case as evidenced by Girgs/Risto.

Reinhart is getting the ice time he is because he is an 18 year kid they are being over protective with. Thats unique to him. Zadorov hasn't been playing because he didn't make the team. Let me repeat that because this fact seems lost on many. Zadorov did not make the team and the Sabres had every intention of sending him back to the OHL after the AHL option was shut down. The only reason he is here is due to his agents making a power play by using the KHL card. In that context, it shouldn't be all that shocking he hasn't played. I went off about this in the Zadorov thread. Think of how well this must be going over with management as well as the other young dmen. That he is holding onto a roster spot based on a threat not by earning a spot. And lets be clear, every young dman was deemed better off starting elsewhere for their development except Risto. And that decision had nothing to do with whether or not they were better than Benoit, the Mess, Weber or Strachan. If that was the only measure then Pysyk, McCabe and Rudy would all be up here. Those young dmen I might add are further along developmentally than Zads and better options at this point (Rudy is debatable).

Fair enough. My sense of logic is distorted by frustration as a fan right now. All part of the suffering process I suppose

 

[jvirk]

G:
Islanders lost 5-0
I like Josh Gorges - If he continues his play, then we've finally got Tyler Myers that security blanket he's needed since his rookie season. And it's showing too..

Next game @ Pittsburgh - that's a guaranteed loss so that's good...then again it's going to be really ugly trying to see these guys go up against Crosby and Malkin...ouch. I'm not watching.

B:
Blues won 2-0
Reinhart barely plays...yet those few minutes he does he looks 10x better than Moulson, Gionta, Hodgson, etc...
Zadorov doesn't get to play...again...wtf kind of "development" is this for that kid. I don't care what anyone says about his attitude..that's all assumptions that we're making b/c he's Russian. I feel for him that he's not playing at all. I'm pretty sure he's better than Weber, Benoit, AND Meszaros

U:
We got a useless point...
Carolina is at 2 points (albeit 3 games less than us), but still scary :/ I'm hoping the return of E. Staal gets them some cheap wins against crappy teams (last game they played vancouver when he finally returned, they're good lol)

 

[Zip15]

Couldn't get the charts ...he has them protected.

I understand the point, and there's certainly some validity to it, but it'd also help if we had more offensive-zone faceoffs. Last I checked, Foligno was leading the team with around 50% O-zone starts, which is incredibly low for a team leader.

What's the problem with CoHo, is it confidence-issues?

He's an offense-only player on a team that doesn't have the puck in the offensive zone all that much. For starters, anyways.

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

I remember all the Nolan lovers we're like, "Nolan will have them running through boards for him" "Nolan will whip them boys into shape" "Nolan will teach them how to play REAL hockey" *paraphrasing, not actual quotes*


11 games into this year and the team looks just as limp as they were under Rolston.

They reality is when you dump an entire veteran core roster and start out with only prospects and draft picks. There's going to be a lot of "suffering" involved.

Regier was right about the "suffering" part. Just cause he was dumped (rightfully so, should have been sooner) didn't mean that it wasn't going to happen.

Murray may be talking tough and making bold statements about the rebuild not taking that long. But he's just sugar coating it. He knows the team is a ways away from real solid compete level.

I am really getting sick of this argument. RonRol had arguably more talent to work with when he was coaching, such as Vanek and Miller. Who does Nolan really have?

I am not saying Teddy is doing a bang up job, but i haven't seen anything even remotely close to this all season:

 

[JLewyB]

G:
Islanders lost 5-0
I like Josh Gorges - If he continues his play, then we've finally got Tyler Myers that security blanket he's needed since his rookie season. And it's showing too..

Next game @ Pittsburgh - that's a guaranteed loss so that's good...then again it's going to be really ugly trying to see these guys go up against Crosby and Malkin...ouch. I'm not watching.

B:
Blues won 2-0
Reinhart barely plays...yet those few minutes he does he looks 10x better than Moulson, Gionta, Hodgson, etc...
Zadorov doesn't get to play...again...wtf kind of "development" is this for that kid. I don't care what anyone says about his attitude..that's all assumptions that we're making b/c he's Russian. I feel for him that he's not playing at all. I'm pretty sure he's better than Weber, Benoit, AND Meszaros

U:
We got a useless point...
Carolina is at 2 points (albeit 3 games less than us), but still scary :/ I'm hoping the return of E. Staal gets them some cheap wins against crappy teams (last game they played vancouver when he finally returned, they're good lol)

I honestly think Myers has been Gorges security blanket. He's covered up for Gorges bad pinches more than the other way around. With that said, Myers made a couple of bad mistakes in his own end tonight.

 

[leo2892]

How in the world are you guys complaining about coaching? Scotty freaking Bowman wouldn't be able to do anything with this roster.

 

[StlSwedes]

I am really getting sick of this argument. RonRol had arguably more talent to work with when he was coaching, such as Vanek and Miller. Who does Nolan really have?

I am not saying Teddy is doing a bang up job, but i haven't seen anything even remotely close to this all season:

I missed the Sabrepede!

 

[BowieSabresFan]

I honestly think Myers has been Gorges security blanket. He's covered up for Gorges bad pinches more than the other way around. With that said, Myers made a couple of bad mistakes in his own end tonight.

He did, but he also had a hand in both goals for.

 

[Sabretooth]

I am really getting sick of this argument. RonRol had arguably more talent to work with when he was coaching, such as Vanek and Miller. Who does Nolan really have?

I am not saying Teddy is doing a bang up job, but i haven't seen anything even remotely close to this all season:

Is that really the best example? I mean, we won that game afterall

In all seriousness, Vanek was here for all of 13 games, and even after leaving here he's been inconsistent, especially in Montreal and Minnesota. Rolston and Nolan both had Moulson. They're both (Vanek and Mouslon) both potential 30 goal scorers. As for Miller, I don't see anything Enroth and Neuvirth combined have done wrong that Miller would have been able to do better. Through 11 games last year, Miller had a 3.03 GAA and .919 SV%. Enroth is at 3.11 and .915 and Neuvy is at 3.26 and .910. Combined, our 2 goalies have made 368 saves on 403 shot attempts for a SV% of .913. Apply millers save % to the SA and we only make 2 extra saves in 11 games. (aside: at least we're pretty darn consistent. Last year, miller faced 405 SA in his first 11 games).

Even if I accept that Rolston had a more talented roster last year, there's still the issue that we have a worse goal differential this year through the first 10 games (-23 vs. -16 last year), and while teams aren't really registering more shots against us this year compared to last year as I've shown above, we've taken 50 fewer shots ourselves (233 vs. 283 at this point in the season last year). So the difference isn't that we're giving up more goals than last year, its really that our offense is even worse than last year, and last year was bad.

So you can't just make a statement like "RonRol had arguably more talent to work with when he was coaching" and give Nolan a pass based on that. Nolan's team looks worse than RonRols team looked last year, as it probably should if the roster got worse. But the whole point is that the data suggests that you give Nolan the exact same roster RonRol had, and the team doesn't look any better at all with Nolan coaching. Which I believe was the original statement, afterall:

11 games into this year and the team looks just as limp as they were under Rolston.

And thats actually a generous statement, because in reality the team looks even worse than how we started last season.

I'm not at all suggesting a new coach would fix anything in the short term, I'm only pointing out that there is nothing Nolan has brought to the table that has seemed to produce anything tangible over what Rolston brought to the table. I'm not at all saying any other coach would produce tangible results over what both RonRol and Nolan have produced, only that the Legend of Nolan elevating teams above their skill and means really just has to die. This is no "Nolan Effect", regardless of whatever did or didn't happen 20 years ago.

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

Is that really the best example? I mean, we won that game afterall

In all seriousness, Vanek was here for all of 13 games, and even after leaving here he's been inconsistent, especially in Montreal and Minnesota. Rolston and Nolan both had Moulson. They're both (Vanek and Mouslon) both potential 30 goal scorers. As for Miller, I don't see anything Enroth and Neuvirth combined have done wrong that Miller would have been able to do better. Through 11 games last year, Miller had a 3.03 GAA and .919 SV%. Enroth is at 3.11 and .915 and Neuvy is at 3.26 and .910. Combined, our 2 goalies have made 368 saves on 403 shot attempts for a SV% of .913. Apply millers save % to the SA and we only make 2 extra saves in 11 games. (aside: at least we're pretty darn consistent. Last year, miller faced 405 SA in his first 11 games).

Even if I accept that Rolston had a more talented roster last year, there's still the issue that we have a worse goal differential this year through the first 10 games (-23 vs. -16 last year), and while teams aren't really registering more shots against us this year compared to last year as I've shown above, we've taken 50 fewer shots ourselves (233 vs. 283 at this point in the season last year). So the difference isn't that we're giving up more goals than last year, its really that our offense is even worse than last year, and last year was bad.

So you can't just make a statement like "RonRol had arguably more talent to work with when he was coaching" and give Nolan a pass based on that. Nolan's team looks worse than RonRols team looked last year, as it probably should if the roster got worse. But the whole point is that the data suggests that you give Nolan the exact same roster RonRol had, and the team doesn't look any better at all with Nolan coaching. Which I believe was the original statement, afterall:



And thats actually a generous statement, because in reality the team looks even worse than how we started last season.

I'm not at all suggesting a new coach would fix anything in the short term, I'm only pointing out that there is nothing Nolan has brought to the table that has seemed to produce anything tangible over what Rolston brought to the table. I'm not at all saying any other coach would produce tangible results over what both RonRol and Nolan have produced, only that the Legend of Nolan elevating teams above their skill and means really just has to die. This is no "Nolan Effect", regardless of whatever did or didn't happen 20 years ago.

Hard to argue with the numbers you laid out there. I'd be curious as to what the advanced stats say when comparing ronrol to teddy this year (as that sample size is about the same.) I am too lazy to crunch the numbers myself, and this years sample size is too small to compare to last year's season overall (though to be fair, we are worse so far this year, than last years overall season).

Regardless, the players don't look as lost in the all three zones as they did under RonRol, imo. Teddy's system may not be good, but i still think it's better. For the record, i am neither a ted nolan supporter or detractor. i think he'll be here to see us through the tank and another year to try and make something happened with a capable team, after that he is out the door.

 

[sabrebuild]

It's an anon hockey chatter board, Herman. Personally I wouldn't suggest taking anything too seriously, but enjoy yourself however it fancies your nature.

Says the poster who takes every criticism as a warcrime.

 

[Sabretooth]

Hard to argue with the numbers you laid out there. I'd be curious as to what the advanced stats say when comparing ronrol to teddy this year (as that sample size is about the same.) I am too lazy to crunch the numbers myself, and this years sample size is too small to compare to last year's season overall (though to be fair, we are worse so far this year, than last years overall season).

Regardless, the players don't look as lost in the all three zones as they did under RonRol, imo. Teddy's system may not be good, but i still think it's better. For the record, i am neither a ted nolan supporter or detractor. i think he'll be here to see us through the tank and another year to try and make something happened with a capable team, after that he is out the door.

I have all the data from last year. Its something I could certainly look into as we get closer to 20 games. I have corsi and fenwick 5on5 and 5on5 close from last year game by game, and I even have each of the opponents from last year season corsi and fenwick same situations. I do that so I can have some point of reference to the strength of our opponents, rather than ignoring that some stretches of games are easier or harder than others.

I do agree that there seems to be some intangibles that look better under Nolan compared to Rolston. But everything comes back to the schedule to me, I wonder if things would have "turned around" last year even if Rolston remained the coach. Our first 20 games last year really was the gauntlet. We didn't come close to touching such a tough stretch of games the rest of the season. This year is a very similar schedule through the 1st 20 games, so the results so far haven't been surprising. I expect to see an uptick (such that it is) around the same time we saw one last year around games 30-50. We were only a -6 goal differential team through those 20 games last year when the scheduled eased off a lot, before getting tougher again down the stretch.