OT: Out of Town Thread; Anywhere but here...

[nhlfan9191]

I ignored what you said cause your changing the conversation and creating a new debate of your own.

Was the argument not the difference between Subban and Weber on Nashville or am I missing something?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Was the argument not the difference between Subban and Weber on Nashville or am I missing something?

Read post 1704... That's the debate

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Weber is Plekanec level bad when it comes to playoff performance. When the games get tough, Weber disappears. It makes sense, since he accumulates his points like Jason Garrison or Marc-Andre Bergeron. A wicked shot that is good for 15-20 goals over 82 games. But given that the playoffs have great penalty killers as you move up the rounds, space on the ice is limited and people block shots, it's easy to shut down a shooting defenseman.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Read post 1704... That's the debate

I’m at work and using mobile. Quote the post you’re referring too.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Well, the barrage of posters coming to Subban's defense was about this comment that I made. So the debate is against something I said and now I'm being critized for what others said in response to this where it had turned into a Subban vs Weber and who is better debate? AGAIN

I said.. Subban was not the sole reason why the Preds made the cup finals and he did not lead them like Karlsson lead the Sens. I later clarified this multiple times by saying that Subban is a fringe top 5D and Weber is a fringe top 10D and I think the gap between them is not the sole reason why the Preds made the cup finals.

The Preds never made it far under Weber, even though Weber did have Josi, Neal, Forsberg, and Johansen. He left with one of the most putrid playoff performances ever, in a game 7. Whereas, Nashville cruised easily through the first two rounds of the playoffs, which they never were able to get through in the past.

Weber never led Nashville to a 9 game win streak, and Josi was lost for the last three games and Subban had to be the top defender.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

I think the gap in value between Subban and Weber played a role. But Subban [...] was not the sole reason why they turned their team into a cup contender.

You keep coming back to this... but literally no one has made this claim.

Eh why did I even take the bait...

 

[nhlfan9191]

Holtby yanked 3 times in last 6 starts.

He’s been yanked 7 times in total this season which is incredible. Then again, Trotz can have a quick trigger finger when it comes to goaltender.

 

[groovejuice]

Well, the barrage of posters coming to Subban's defense was about this comment that I made. So the debate is against something I said and now I'm being critized for what others said in response to this where it had turned into a Subban vs Weber and who is better debate? AGAIN

I said.. Subban was not the sole reason why the Preds made the cup finals and he did not lead them like Karlsson lead the Sens. I later clarified this multiple times by saying that Subban is a fringe top 5D and Weber is a fringe top 10D and I think the gap between them is not the sole reason why the Preds made the cup finals.

Yes, I'm aware of the chain of posts. Why say Subban wasn't the sole reason when no one suggested it? The fact is that Subban led the Nashville D every bit as much as Karlsson led Ottawa's O. One of those teams went to the final.

 

[sandviper]

I’m at work and using mobile. Quote the post you’re referring too.

I've snipped the part being referenced.

Well, the barrage of posters coming to Subban's defense was about this comment that I made. So the debate is against something I said and now I'm being critized for what others said in response to this where it had turned into a Subban vs Weber and who is better debate? AGAIN

I said.. Subban was not the sole reason why the Preds made the cup finals and he did not lead them like Karlsson lead the Sens. I later clarified this multiple times by saying that Subban is a fringe top 5D and Weber is a fringe top 10D and I think the gap between them is not the sole reason why the Preds made the cup finals.

The debate wasn't PK vs Weber and who was better, but @nhlfan9191 I thought you were on point, so I am confused also.

Basically, PK didn't carry the Preds like Karlsson did with the Sens. I don't disagree here, though I don't really understand why the argument then. There may had been a comment about Weber being able to do what PK did last spring, which is why his name came up. However, I will disagree there. All things being equal, PK's contributions were enough to put the Preds over to the next level which wasn't the case with Shea.

It doesn't have to mean PK did all the heavy lifting, because he didn't (unlike Karlsson I guess which is the main argument). However, I would counter that PK had a greater impact, even compared to Karlsson, because the dynamics of the Preds changed with PK. How they attack, how they defend, their line-up and how they are built needed PK, or a player like him. Do like what Montreal did a few weeks ago and shut PK down, well, the rest of the team gets you. Shut Karlsson down, Ottawa is done.

On that note, is Karlsson really the only reason Ottawa made that run? Methot doesn't get nearly enough credit. He was a rock back there and he allowed Karlsson to be able to play his game. Now that Methot is gone, look what happened.

To me anyways, impact to the team isn't just your individual contributions but what is your effect to the surroundings? Whether we want to acknowledge PK making an impact or not, it was clear Nashville wanted a faster, more relentless team and that meant getting a more mobile and dynamic D-core last year along with strengthening their middle earlier this season. Whether this all pays off this year we'll have to see.

One thing is clear though, Karlsson isn't carrying any team into the post-season this year.

 

[Brainiac]

THE thing with Subban is that he delivers on the ice and when it counts. He always did. Came in and took Markov's #1D role against the best offensive teams at the time. Led the Habs in PO scoring for his last 3 years with us. Went on a great run with the Preds as soon as he got there.

At some point, you have to accept the FACT that the guy is doing something good, even if you can't pinpoint what exactly. Defense is indeed more complex than forward/goaltending.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

THE thing with Subban is that he delivers on the ice and when it counts. He always did. Came in and took Markov's #1D role against the best offensive teams at the time. Led the Habs in PO scoring for his last 3 years with us. Went on a great run with the Preds as soon as he got there.

At some point, you have to accept the FACT that the guy is doing something good, even if you can't pinpoint what exactly. Defense is indeed more complex than forward/goaltending.

Some people have a really hard time doing this without also sliding in a subtle dig, criticism, or back-handed compliment. It's pretty much automatic: "yes Subban is good, but..."

 

[Captain Mountain]

THE thing with Subban is that he delivers on the ice and when it counts. He always did. Came in and took Markov's #1D role against the best offensive teams at the time. Led the Habs in PO scoring for his last 3 years with us. Went on a great run with the Preds as soon as he got there.

At some point, you have to accept the FACT that the guy is doing something good, even if you can't pinpoint what exactly. Defense is indeed more complex than forward/goaltending.

We can pinpoint it though. He's elite at boxing players out, holding the blueline, driving possession, creating scoring chances and producing. Empirically.

 

[PaulD]

Yes, I'm aware of the chain of posts. Why say Subban wasn't the some reason when no one suggested it? The fact is that Subban led the Nashville D every bit as much as Karlsson led Ottawa's O. One of those teams went to the final.

Nah. Karlson dominated games on the Sens run. Set up late game tieing goals , late game winning goals. Highlight reel stretch passes, while playing injured. Inspiring.

Subban uh....yea he was pretty good.

 

[groovejuice]

Nah. Karlson dominated games on the Sens run. Set up late game tieing goals , late game winning goals. Highlight reel stretch passes, while playing injured. Inspiring.

Subban uh....yea he was pretty good.

And all through the POs Subban prevented other teams top players from scoring. I gave him the nod because of the extra round.

Karlsson was outrageously great also

 

[PaulD]

And all through the POs Subban prevented other teams top players from scoring. I gave him the nod because of the extra round.

Karlsson was outrageously great also

And what was Karlsson doing.......playing against rookies and letting them score?

Both were great. PKs team had the extra round and won 2 more games. PK was a + 5

Eric played less games, had more 6 more points and 2 game winning goals, was a +13

So on that I give him the nod.

 

[nhlfan9191]

I've snipped the part being referenced.



The debate wasn't PK vs Weber and who was better, but @nhlfan9191 I thought you were on point, so I am confused also.

Basically, PK didn't carry the Preds like Karlsson did with the Sens. I don't disagree here, though I don't really understand why the argument then. There may had been a comment about Weber being able to do what PK did last spring, which is why his name came up. However, I will disagree there. All things being equal, PK's contributions were enough to put the Preds over to the next level which wasn't the case with Shea.

It doesn't have to mean PK did all the heavy lifting, because he didn't (unlike Karlsson I guess which is the main argument). However, I would counter that PK had a greater impact, even compared to Karlsson, because the dynamics of the Preds changed with PK. How they attack, how they defend, their line-up and how they are built needed PK, or a player like him. Do like what Montreal did a few weeks ago and shut PK down, well, the rest of the team gets you. Shut Karlsson down, Ottawa is done.

On that note, is Karlsson really the only reason Ottawa made that run? Methot doesn't get nearly enough credit. He was a rock back there and he allowed Karlsson to be able to play his game. Now that Methot is gone, look what happened.

To me anyways, impact to the team isn't just your individual contributions but what is your effect to the surroundings? Whether we want to acknowledge PK making an impact or not, it was clear Nashville wanted a faster, more relentless team and that meant getting a more mobile and dynamic D-core last year along with strengthening their middle earlier this season. Whether this all pays off this year we'll have to see.

One thing is clear though, Karlsson isn't carrying any team into the post-season this year.

When I came into the argument, She was debating Weber vs Subban’s impact with another poster I believe. I’ll have to go back and check. Regardless of if her original point was he didn’t carry the team the same way Karlsson did, which I would’ve agreed on. He was in a league of his own. It has no relation whatsoever on how the Subban/Weber trade changed the blueline for Nashville. Just ball parking here but just because you can argue the difference between the two is one is ranked #5 and #10 on a top 10 defenceman list doesn’t mean there isn’t a signifgant change. These aren’t goaltenders with one job which is to stop the puck. Defenders bring many intangibles that can completely change the dynamics of their teams.

 

[Brainiac]

We can pinpoint it though. He's elite at boxing players out, holding the blueline, driving possession, creating scoring chances and producing. Empirically.

All very good points and I agree with you.

My point was that you don't even have to have this information to draw the conclusion. Even if you don't like advanced stats or you don't understand them, you can still draw the conclusion that Subban is elite. That's actually one think Bergevin (and Team Canada) completely failed at.

 

[Andy]

You are talking BS and you are way to confrontational. How does this sound to you... You know **** F all cause in fact, I know you didn't watch the games. This is your line of defense and is horse ****.

You stuck your nose into the discussion and you don't even know what the debate was. Congratulations.

You didn't watch the games, and I know this because your "opinion" clearly indicates so. So now I know that you are out to lunch on this subject.

 

[Captain Mountain]

All very good points and I agree with you.

My point was that you don't even have to have this information to draw the conclusion. Even if you don't like advanced stats or you don't understand them, you can still draw the conclusion that Subban is elite. That's actually one think Bergevin (and Team Canada) completely failed at.

Bergevin yes. Team Canada, I'm not so sure about. Weber was on team Canada because they wanted the best shutdown D-man. Subban is a better all-around D-man, but Weber is more grinding and better when placed in a purely defensive role. Subban was competing against Doughty and Pietrangelo/Burns. And while I'll argue all day that Subban is better than either Pietrangelo or Burns, I'm not sure Weber vs. Subban makes a ton of sense as a comparison for Team Canada. Its like comparing Abdelkader to Kessel. The choices may be wrong, the reasoning may be wrong, but the comparison just doesn't make sense.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Pretty much if anyone thinks Weber is better than Subban, I immediately discredit all their hockey opinions.

 

[Brainiac]

Bergevin yes. Team Canada, I'm not so sure about. Weber was on team Canada because they wanted the best shutdown D-man. Subban is a better all-around D-man, but Weber is more grinding and better when placed in a purely defensive role. Subban was competing against Doughty and Pietrangelo/Burns. And while I'll argue all day that Subban is better than either Pietrangelo or Burns, I'm not sure Weber vs. Subban makes a ton of sense as a comparison for Team Canada. Its like comparing Abdelkader to Kessel. The choices may be wrong, the reasoning may be wrong, but the comparison just doesn't make sense.

Sure thing. My depth chart on the right side at the time would have been Doughty/Subban/Weber in any order you like. But these were the guys.

 

[jaffy27]

Pretty much if anyone thinks Weber is better than Subban, I immediately discredit all their hockey opinions.

That's a lot of NHL players you're discrediting there..........

 

[WeThreeKings]

That's a lot of NHL players you're discrediting there..........

So? Andrew Shaw called someone a Homophobic Slur on the ice. I'm pretty okay with not agreeing with anything he has to say. Marchand pissed on the floor of the Halifax Casino. Kassian drove drunk into a tree.

 

[Andy]

That's a lot of NHL players you're discrediting there..........

An NHL GM thought a late 30s Douglas Murray was still an nhl defenseman. Likewise for a clearly finished Mark Streit.

Just because you're in the business doesn't mean your automatically right or your opinion is superior. Sometimes the best perspective is an outsiders one.

 

[jaffy27]

So? Andrew Shaw called someone a ****** on the ice. I'm pretty okay with not agreeing with anything he has to say. Marchand pissed on the floor of the Halifax Casino. Kassian drove drunk into a tree.

WTK has never done anything wrong in his life........

What do they have to do with liking Weber over Subban I'll never know......oh that's right, nobody is allowed too cause you say so lol

Anyways, this will go nowhere but get me in shit with the mods, I'm out