League News: Out of Town Scoreboard (Metrosectional Edition)

[BTCG]

Quick observation:

Chibi AND Kegger are now both mods?????

Not to butter anyone's bread, but having 2 people who know the game well become mods is a HUGE improvement around here!!!

Gotta say... the entire Cap's mod staff now consists of folk whose opinions are of the sort I want to hear.

Good work to whoever is deciding these things!!!!!!

 

[Atlas]

kicksavedave, you are exactly right. Leadership is critical and the Caps have precious little of it. Ted is no leader. George is no leader.

Ovie is probably the closest thing we have to a leader and yeah—he's better as your #3 or #4 guy in that dept. He hits and plays incredibly hard from our blue line out. Huntsy was an amazing leader as coach and we saw how he didn't fit here.

It's a pretty goofy roster we have, overall. "Me fight him? No *you* fight him!" <shift change>

 

[Liberati0n*]

Why shouldn't Ovechkin have been named captain? Was there a better candidate on the team? Was he not the leader of the team after Clark was traded?

He was the team's best player. I'm sure they looked to him to set the tone, but that's part of the problem, and settling on someone else to wear the C and be the team's leader in a more comprehensive way could have created a much better dynamic.

There may not have been a legitimately suitable option at the time, but that's hardly an argument for locking them into a long-term non-solution just to have the issue settled. If anything, I guess Backstrom could have been groomed for it at the time. I realize that any scenario in which Ovechkin wasn't named captain at that point sounds totally implausible, and that probably reflects the deeper problems. The organization made itself all about Ovechkin and catered to him, rather than creating an atmosphere in which he had to show he was suited to be captain (for example). There was nothing there for him to be accountable to, no standard he had to meet, whatever. In Pittsburgh, Crosby was the most important player on a losing team, but he could have been passed over smoothly for the captaincy because it wasn't a losing organization. The culture in Washington created a situation in which Ovechkin had to be named captain.

Chibi AND Kegger are now both mods?????

Not to butter anyone's bread, but having 2 people who know the game well become mods is a HUGE improvement around here!!!

That's a pretty harsh thing to say about Langway.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Who says Ovechkin hadn't proven that he was a suitable captain when he got the C? He was a two-way monster in the time that followed until the Olympics.

There's a lot of hindsight editing of the 2009-10 narrative going on here, and just about all of it paints Ovechkin in a negative light.

 

[Halpysback*]

Don't you get it? If Ovechkin was a better leader, Johansson wouldn't be afraid of contact, Backstrom wouldn't play like a wet **** in the playoffs and Jeff Schultz and John Erskine would be capable of playing solid top 4 roles. In fact you could give a real captain a bunch of blow up dolls and he could coast to the cup with them.

It's so obvious! DUH!

 

[Halpysback*]

And I'm sorry, but the idea that Crosby could have been passed over for captaincy in Pittsburgh is horse****. There was simply no way that arguably the best player in the league (AINEC as far as the mainstream hockey world was concerned), face of the franchise, who is as proud and arrogant as they come (I know it's become trendy to sanctify the kid around these parts lately but he is extremely arrogant. To the point where it drips over his whole team and leads to their undoing as has been the case the last few years. Just watch him flip out any time there is adversity and lash out at refs/players for being an affront to his greatness) was not gonna be captain without major repercussions that could have been as bad as him wanting out.

 

[Halpysback*]

Of course "we" do. Ovechkin shouldn't have been named captain, but he was, and now there's nothing anyone can realistically do about it.

I guess I have some hope that Holtby can partially fill the leadership void long-term. Backstrom's apparent lack of preparation or whatever in the playoffs has soured me somewhat on his potential. He needs to assert himself more, but Alzner is probably the proper captain of the team. He's actually responsible and team-focused, unlike the big-mouthed media whores everyone thinks are good leaders.

Alzner is a nice humble responsible kid and all, but he's a steady eddie defenseman with a steady eddie personality. He's not gonna call you out or motivate you successfully or anything like that. Great A, doubtful C. If we really wanna circumnavigate Ovechkin that badly Joel Ward is the guy.

There's a reason practically every captain out there is an alpha male and the vast majority have been star-starish players at some point or are rising stars. Ward is no star but he does have a Dustin Brown-ish appeal.

Here's an exercise - name one year where you can make a strong case that the caps would have gone at least one round further had Alzner been captain rather than 8.

 

[hb12xchamps]

I seriously am enjoying reading these posts. They get better each day. Grooming Backstrom for the "C" lol he couldn't lead a herd of sheep. Why would the Caps want a guy who shoves a stick up his arm and calls it a "splinter" as the captain, he should at least know that sticks are used to play the game

In all seriousness, around the time that Ovechkin was announced as captain he really was the only candidate that truly fit the void and his teammates all unanimously voted him as the team leader. Here's an excerpt from an article from NHL.com proving this. Oh what a simple google search will do.

"He's been the face of the franchise for a long time," Caps defenseman Tom Poti said. "Well deserved and well earned."

Originally, GM George McPhee and coach Bruce Boudreau said they were going to take their time in making this selection out of respect for Clark and the letter. They also wanted to make sure they were picking the right guy, not just any guy because of his name or ability.

It took all of seven days for them to decide because really, there is nobody in the dressing room more suited to be the Caps' captain than Ovechkin. Even the rest of the team knows that.

Boudreau said he had polled the team in recent days and Ovechkin was the unanimous choice.

"Who else is it supposed to be but the biggest leader on our team," Fleischmann said. "We wanted it to be him."

"They were really happy when I told them (Tuesday) morning and this doesn't happen too often, but the group got up and cheered," Boudreau said. "I had talked to a lot of them in the last couple of days and they said Alex was the only choice, 'He's our leader and he's our guy.'"

 

[ChibiPooky]

Chibi AND Kegger are now both mods?????

Not to butter anyone's bread, but having 2 people who know the game well become mods is a HUGE improvement around here!!!

Gotta say... the entire Cap's mod staff now consists of folk whose opinions are of the sort I want to hear.

Good work to whoever is deciding these things!!!!!!

Wait, Kegger is two people!

TBH all of the regulars here know just as much about hockey as I do, or specialize in an area that I can benefit from their depth of knowledge. I spend most of my time here just absorbing different ideas and viewpoints. It makes me a better player too.

 

[Liberati0n*]

Alzner is a nice humble responsible kid and all, but he's a steady eddie defenseman with a steady eddie personality. He's not gonna call you out or motivate you successfully or anything like that. Great A, doubtful C. If we really wanna circumnavigate Ovechkin that badly Joel Ward is the guy.

There's a reason practically every captain out there is an alpha male and the vast majority have been star-starish players at some point or are rising stars. Ward is no star but he does have a Dustin Brown-ish appeal.

Here's an exercise - name one year where you can make a strong case that the caps would have gone at least one round further had Alzner been captain rather than 8.

Alzner isn't an alpha male, so let's turn to...Joel Ward? I guess you were being sarcastic. Alzner isn't particularly assertive, but he could decide to be and be effective doing so. He's not an alpha male, but he commands enough respect to be a good captain. The exercise you propose is stupid; I'm talking mainly about going forward, looking at the team now. Obviously Alzner wouldn't have been a candidate in '09-'10.

In all seriousness, around the time that Ovechkin was announced as captain he really was the only candidate that truly fit the void and his teammates all unanimously voted him as the team leader. Here's an excerpt from an article from NHL.com proving this. Oh what a simple google search will do.

Who cares what they think? Do they really know what's good for them? Again, anyway, the organization created a situation in which he was the only choice. The players saw him accordingly.

 

[Brad Tolliver]

People forget how good of a captain Chris Clark was before the injuries did him in. There was never a question that he gave a damn on and off the ice, and he never had to "alpha" or pretend to be a leader in front of the cameras like some puckhogging LW/C. They replaced his production but never replaced the professionalism and leadership since his contract was dumped.

Nowadays the "leadership" is determined by which players/personality cults have the best selling jerseys.

 

[usiel]

I'm glad I'm generally a one cereal guy...but for some reason I naively hope that off-season posts here would at least be different JUST one year. That said I do appreciate the passionate opinions even if I think they are of the John Carter of Mars variety. Hey its the internets and they don't lie. Along with YTs...they don't lie either.

I mean...

This is the truth...

 

[Stewie G]

Not that I think Alzner should be given the "C", but he was captain of the '08 Canadian WJC team and of the Hitmen in his last season there. Just goes to show that there are some people in the hockey world that feel he has what it takes to wear the "C".

 

[kicksavedave]

I seriously am enjoying reading these posts. They get better each day. Grooming Backstrom for the "C" lol he couldn't lead a herd of sheep. Why would the Caps want a guy who shoves a stick up his arm and calls it a "splinter" as the captain, he should at least know that sticks are used to play the game

In all seriousness, around the time that Ovechkin was announced as captain he really was the only candidate that truly fit the void and his teammates all unanimously voted him as the team leader. Here's an excerpt from an article from NHL.com proving this. Oh what a simple google search will do.

So there is a lot going on here... first, the fact that Ovechkin may have been the unanimous choice doesn't automatically make him a great leader, it makes him the guy they voted for. Also Ovechkin in 2009 is a different player than he is today, he seems more mentally fragile, he's been through more ups/downs since then, he hasn't really grown into the leadership role he was handed in 2009. His playoff PPG has gone down every single year since 2009 he put up 21 in 14.

He may have been the only choice at the time in 2009. That doesn't make him a great choice. It speaks almost as much to the lack of any other established veteran leader on the roster at the time. And making him captain in 2009 should not be an automatic lifetime pass. There is precedent for successfully changing captains... see Andreychuk taking over for Lecavalier and leading TB to a Cup.

 

[Stewie G]

So there is a lot going on here... first, the fact that Ovechkin may have been the unanimous choice doesn't automatically make him a great leader, it makes him the guy they voted for. Also Ovechkin in 2009 is a different player than he is today, he seems more mentally fragile, he's been through more ups/downs since then, he hasn't really grown into the leadership role he was handed in 2009. His playoff PPG has gone down every single year since 2009 he put up 21 in 14.

He may have been the only choice at the time in 2009. That doesn't make him a great choice. It speaks almost as much to the lack of any other established veteran leader on the roster at the time. And making him captain in 2009 should not be an automatic lifetime pass. There is precedent for successfully changing captains... see Andreychuk taking over for Lecavalier and leading TB to a Cup.

I agree that the team has been lacking veteran presence for a while now, but I don't know if they would have chosen a role playing vet over Ovie back then anyway.

Reasonable or not, the increased media coverage and advent of social media, have put a bigger microscope on pretty much everything. Switching Cs in a low-pressure hockey town like Tampa back in '01 is a wildly different animal than taking the C off Ovechkin right now. You noted that he appears more mentally fragile now. I can only guess what the impact would be of stripping him of the C and the following media crucification.

 

[Halpysback*]

Alzner isn't an alpha male, so let's turn to...Joel Ward? I guess you were being sarcastic. Alzner isn't particularly assertive, but he could decide to be and be effective doing so. He's not an alpha male, but he commands enough respect to be a good captain. The exercise you propose is stupid; I'm talking mainly about going forward, looking at the team now. Obviously Alzner wouldn't have been a candidate in '09-'10..

Alzner doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who can really motivate the team. Great teammate and professional and all, but so is Henrik Sedin. Ward seems a bit more aggressive and plays clutch and all and is the most liked guy on the team by all accounts.

Alright, here's another exercise - Alzner is captain from now on, do we win just one extra series in the coming years if we continue to ice half-assed rosters with critical weakpoints all over the place? How much did Dustin the leader Brown win before his GM said screw it and built a formidable playoff machine? How much did the Bruins win until Chiarelli added Horton, Seguin, Marchand, Kelly, Peverley, Campell, Seidenberg and took his team to another level? Oh, right, they were choking away 3-0 playoff leads.

The C is a red herring for people obsessed with leadership who seem to believe that whether or not Ovechkin or Alzner or whoever else wear a patch will somehow make the team exponentially better, even though history is right there laughing them in the face. Once you fail with a roster that at least looks on paper as if it can go places (like say the Penguins), then you look at leadership. Right now you look at the fact that we have no shutdown line, look to be heading into next season with a 2nd line that will be lucky to play other teams to a draw, John Erskine is in our top 4 and Ovechkin is the only one on the team who can physically intimidate anybody.

This board is starting to remind me a bit of Holmgren diagnosing Richards and Carter's leadership as the obstacle to winning a cup while forgetting that he had Michael Leighton in nets. Though he actually had somewhat legitimate off ice reasons to go through with it.

 

[BTCG]

He was the team's best player. I'm sure they looked to him to set the tone, but that's part of the problem, and settling on someone else to wear the C and be the team's leader in a more comprehensive way could have created a much better dynamic.

There may not have been a legitimately suitable option at the time, but that's hardly an argument for locking them into a long-term non-solution just to have the issue settled. If anything, I guess Backstrom could have been groomed for it at the time. I realize that any scenario in which Ovechkin wasn't named captain at that point sounds totally implausible, and that probably reflects the deeper problems. The organization made itself all about Ovechkin and catered to him, rather than creating an atmosphere in which he had to show he was suited to be captain (for example). There was nothing there for him to be accountable to, no standard he had to meet, whatever. In Pittsburgh, Crosby was the most important player on a losing team, but he could have been passed over smoothly for the captaincy because it wasn't a losing organization. The culture in Washington created a situation in which Ovechkin had to be named captain.


That's a pretty harsh thing to say about Langway.

Didn't mean it that way... it was a back pat for the 2 coming in, not that there was any issues here. There sure wasn't anything happening here I had any complaints about.

 

[BTCG]

Wait, Kegger is two people!

TBH all of the regulars here know just as much about hockey as I do, or specialize in an area that I can benefit from their depth of knowledge. I spend most of my time here just absorbing different ideas and viewpoints. It makes me a better player too.

For the record... although Lib, I'm sure, is just joshing, there was no hidden meaning or slight meant by my post. Just a initial observation comment on my part.

I completely agree with your last paragraph. Most of the posts involve viewpoints, and though we sometimes forget, just because someone has a different opinion, it does NOT make them wrong.

Congrats to both of our new mods, and thank you both for the donation of your time for the benefit of us all.

 

[Liberati0n*]

Alzner doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who can really motivate the team. Great teammate and professional and all, but so is Henrik Sedin. Ward seems a bit more aggressive and plays clutch and all and is the most liked guy on the team by all accounts.

Alright, here's another exercise - Alzner is captain from now on, do we win just one extra series in the coming years if we continue to ice half-assed rosters with critical weakpoints all over the place? How much did Dustin the leader Brown win before his GM said screw it and built a formidable playoff machine? How much did the Bruins win until Chiarelli added Horton, Seguin, Marchand, Kelly, Peverley, Campell, Seidenberg and took his team to another level? Oh, right, they were choking away 3-0 playoff leads.

The C is a red herring for people obsessed with leadership who seem to believe that whether or not Ovechkin or Alzner or whoever else wear a patch will somehow make the team exponentially better, even though history is right there laughing them in the face. Once you fail with a roster that at least looks on paper as if it can go places (like say the Penguins), then you look at leadership. Right now you look at the fact that we have no shutdown line, look to be heading into next season with a 2nd line that will be lucky to play other teams to a draw, John Erskine is in our top 4 and Ovechkin is the only one on the team who can physically intimidate anybody.

This board is starting to remind me a bit of Holmgren diagnosing Richards and Carter's leadership as the obstacle to winning a cup while forgetting that he had Michael Leighton in nets. Though he actually had somewhat legitimate off ice reasons to go through with it.

I never said having a different captain would make them automatically win an extra playoff series. It's not that I think the captaincy is important as much as I just believe that attitudes are, and if the players or half the players right now look to Ovechkin to guide their approach mentally, that to me is a significant problem.

 

[kicksavedave]

I never said having a different captain would make them automatically win an extra playoff series. It's not that I think the captaincy is important as much as I just believe that attitudes are, and if the players or half the players right now look to Ovechkin to guide their approach mentally, that to me is a significant problem.

I'll say this for the record... while I don't thin Ovi has shown the characteristics of a good leader thus far, I do think it is a skill that can be learned and improved over time, but generally only with the right leadership above to mentor him. That could be a Fedorov type veteran presence, it could come from the HC although the jury is still out on Oates in that regard, or possibly a great assistant coach, and neither Hunter nor Calle Jo have shown that to be the case so far. And frankly the GM can and should serve as a mentor/leader to the teams coaches and on ice leadership as well. The GM sets the tone of the on ice hockey team with his coaching hires, and his roster moves. The GM and the captain should be in sync on what they expect from each other, so long as the HC is also on board and its not some secret back door beoch session type of thing. The GM sets the tone, creates the vision, and chooses a HC to execute that vision. So having the Captain on board and bought in with the GM and HC's common vision is a critical part of building a winning franchise.

Right now it just seems like a rudderless ship, trying this, trying that, seeing what sticks. It would be hard for any captain to effectively lead under those circumstances, but not impossible. And especially under less than ideal surroundings, the captain's leadership becomes even more important. While I stand by my claim that Ovi isn't a great leader, I think the franchise itself (Ted and GMGM) really can and should do more to help him in that regard, but thus far has failed pretty badly.

 

[Liberati0n*]

I don't disagree, but it is what it is, regardless of who's at fault.

 

[Halpysback*]

I never said having a different captain would make them automatically win an extra playoff series. It's not that I think the captaincy is important as much as I just believe that attitudes are, and if the players or half the players right now look to Ovechkin to guide their approach mentally, that to me is a significant problem.

If players looked to Ovechkin to set their approach he wouldn't be the only one to throw a ****ing hit in the playoffs.

 

[Liberati0n*]

If players looked to Ovechkin to set their approach he wouldn't be the only one to throw a ****ing hit in the playoffs.

That's obviously not what I'm talking about.

 

[Halpysback*]

That's obviously not what I'm talking about.

No, you're just running around trying to qualify everything Ovechkin does one way or another.

He doesn't make them better, even though they produce far above their general abilities with him. His "approach" is wrong and rubs off badly on the team, except you conveniently ignore the fact that he plays a physical style and the rest of the team doesn't follow suit, because that may put Ovechkin in a positive light, and dear god we can't have that if we want to be objective impartial hockey fans who aren't afraid to tear into our own stars. He's not a good captain, even though we're no more successful under a different captain with this **** roster as you've admitted yourself. I don't think even you know what you're talking about at this point.

If you're really concerned about attitude, the coach has, I dunno, infinitely more to do with it than any particular player. All you need to do is see the way they played with ice in their veins under Hunter vs the way they melted under tactical genius Adam Oates. The dots are all there in a nice straight line, not sure why we need to draw a parabola to fit Ovechkin (only one playing consistenly hard for both aside from Ward) in there some how.

 

[Liberati0n*]

No, you're just running around trying to qualify everything Ovechkin does one way or another.

He doesn't make them better, even though they produce far above their general abilities with him.

I didn't say that. I was just pointing out that it's a more nuanced issue (so it's no wonder CCF thinks it's just a question of comparing stat lines). I think Ovechkin historically hasn't gotten enough credit for what he allows players he plays with to do, but to reduce the question to that is disingenuous.

His "approach" is wrong and rubs off badly on the team, except you conveniently ignore the fact that he plays a physical style and the rest of the team doesn't follow suit, because that may put Ovechkin in a positive light, and dear god we can't have that if we want to be objective impartial hockey fans who aren't afraid to tear into our own stars. He's not a good captain, even though we're no more successful under a different captain with this **** roster as you've admitted yourself. I don't think even you know what you're talking about at this point.

If you're really concerned about attitude, the coach has, I dunno, infinitely more to do with it than any particular player. All you need to do is see the way they played with ice in their veins under Hunter vs the way they melted under tactical genius Adam Oates. The dots are all there in a nice straight line, not sure why we need to draw a parabola to fit Ovechkin (only one playing consistenly hard for both aside from Ward) in there some how.

I said his mental approach. I'm not talking about what he does on the ice. What you bring up about Hunter is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Subtle aspects of how a person in a leadership role sees situations, reacts to adversity, whatever, can have an important impact on followers' attitudes. I don't think, for example, Ovechkin reacts to certain types of adversity well. Etc.