Our Roster & probable changes

[sakei]

Hi
I've been thinking a lot about our roster recently. As it stands right now, we have 6.5 C (Z counting 0.5) on our roster, competing for four spots.

Datsyuk is penciled in for 1C. Sheahan has been playing really good and looks like a 3rd or 4th year player with his overall game. While I didn't really like the thought of having Glendening as our 4C a few months ago, I have to admit he really does a great job in his shutdown role.


That makes it three C competing for our second or third line center spot, depending on Sheahan's role.
Helm, Weiss, Andersson. The easiest decision is Andersson. I liked him on the Griffins with Goose and Tats and with Brunner and Nyquist two years ago. Now, he just hasn't evolved into an unreplaceable 3rd or 4th liner and that's why I think we will get rid of him after this season. So it's down to Helm and Weiss.. What's your take on this and who do you prefer?

I think Helm had a decent season so far, he found some kind of scoring touch for his measures with 18 pts in 38 gms so far. BUT... I'm still not sold on him and think he could be replaced. Sheahan replaced him as a C and we have a lot of talented wingers who could replace him there.

Weiss surprised me. I was suprised no one gave him credit, he was a decent C on a mediocre Panthers team and came into a talented team with good, scoring wingers. I'm confident he will score more with a proper preseason under his belt next year and a somewhat normal 2014-15 season.

Short-term, the departure of one of those guys (Weiss is not tradeable tho) would probably be compensated with superstar-forward Danny Cleary but it would give us more flexibility long term.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader
Franzen-Weiss/Helm-Nyquist
Tatar-Sheahan-???
Miller-Glendening-Jurco

I know Franzen or Miller are not everyone's favorite players but there's no point in discussing a trade involving one of them because of Franzen's longterm contract and Miller's importance to the fourth line with his defensive game. Who would you consider trading away if we get a RHD in return? Someone HAS TO go, otherwise we're losing Pulkkinen, Callahan, Ferraro next year and also have to bury Mantha in the minors for another year.

After all, it looks like we're sittinig on a bunch of contracts that wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the length, causing a logjam in GR. Franzen at 4m is great for his production (even if he's streaky) but not through 2019-20. Ericsson at 4.25 is alright, but not through 2019-20. Kindl/Q are in the same category but likely gone soon.

Click to read more...

 

[Henkka]

Tatar or helm are those trade pieces. They have most value, and could be easiest guys to replace internally.

Kindl and Lasooff are just bums we sould get rid of. And of course, Cleary after this season. But there's no value on those guys for a trade.

 

[Frk It]

Hi
I've been thinking a lot about our roster recently. As it stands right now, we have 6.5 C (Z counting 0.5) on our roster, competing for four spots.

Datsyuk is penciled in for 1C. Sheahan has been playing really good and looks like a 3rd or 4th year player with his overall game. While I didn't really like the thought of having Glendening as our 4C a few months ago, I have to admit he really does a great job in his shutdown role.


That makes it three C competing for our second or third line center spot, depending on Sheahan's role.
Helm, Weiss, Andersson. The easiest decision is Andersson. I liked him on the Griffins with Goose and Tats and with Brunner and Nyquist two years ago. Now, he just hasn't evolved into an unreplaceable 3rd or 4th liner and that's why I think we will get rid of him after this season. So it's down to Helm and Weiss.. What's your take on this and who do you prefer?

I think Helm had a decent season so far, he found some kind of scoring touch for his measures with 18 pts in 38 gms so far. BUT... I'm still not sold on him and think he could be replaced. Sheahan replaced him as a C and we have a lot of talented wingers who could replace him there.

Weiss surprised me. I was suprised no one gave him credit, he was a decent C on a mediocre Panthers team and came into a talented team with good, scoring wingers. I'm confident he will score more with a proper preseason under his belt next year and a somewhat normal 2014-15 season.

Short-term, the departure of one of those guys (Weiss is not tradeable tho) would probably be compensated with superstar-forward Danny Cleary but it would give us more flexibility long term.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader
Franzen-Weiss/Helm-Nyquist
Tatar-Sheahan-???
Miller-Glendening-Jurco

I know Franzen or Miller are not everyone's favorite players but there's no point in discussing a trade involving one of them because of Franzen's longterm contract and Miller's importance to the fourth line with his defensive game. Who would you consider trading away if we get a RHD in return? Someone HAS TO go, otherwise we're losing Pulkkinen, Callahan, Ferraro next year and also have to bury Mantha in the minors for another year.

After all, it looks like we're sittinig on a bunch of contracts that wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the length, causing a logjam in GR. Franzen at 4m is great for his production (even if he's streaky) but not through 2019-20. Ericsson at 4.25 is alright, but not through 2019-20. Kindl/Q are in the same category but likely gone soon.

Sheahan looks better as a 2C than both Weiss or Helm right now.

 

[Henkka]

Sheahan looks better as a 2C than both Weiss or Helm right now.

Yeah, Weiss hasn't played a single game as center at this season, so I don't understand why people are even planning him on the center spot in our current situation. Weiss has sucked (lat last season) in the middle and has been great as RW. So be it. Other guys do better in the middle.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Sheahan looks better as a 2C than both Weiss or Helm right now.

Yep, I'd agree with that. I'd be willing to trade any of Tats, Helm and Smith for a good puck moving RHD. NO ONE is going to take Mule, Weiss or Kindl's contracts off our hands.

 

[joe89]

We've got a roster now with mostly useful players, so I think there's options. Basically, look at what you have and what you've got coming and can get back. Where do you slot players in etc. It's about building a team and looking at cap hits as much as who the better player is.

Kindl, Andersson and Lashoff are just likely cuts.. not much or no return at all can be expected.

Possibilites:
We have Mantha to replace Franzen's services probably sooner than later. He'll be on ELC for another three years and we could save in a few millions to bolster the defense(and Nyquist's deal). Return has to make sense and make us better overall, it's not just a cap dump.

We've got various speedy centers and Larkin coming up making Helm expendable. Helm turns 28(29 before his contract is up) and will command more money for his services on his next deal. Helm's solid and can get a solid player(defenseman) back, maybe rental for rental trade.

Pulkkinen has a lot to prove still but projects as much of the same of Tatar, and is right-handed to boot. You also have to add to the equation that we have another small skilled winger in Nyquist already. Tatar is the most valuable (likely) trade piece we have, so return has to be strong. It's unlikely you have room for all three of them.

Smith, Quincey and Ericsson.. I think most agree this is where we can make our defense both smoother and more skilled. Smith will cost us at least Kindl money, not too much but his role on the team is also unclear. Quincey will demand similar money with longer term most likely. It's realistic to think a prospect like Marchenko can fill his role -- for a quarter as much. Ericsson is signed and has a longer track record, but right now in a struggle. You have to at least entertain the idea, but he's not the first option to trade admittedly.

Drew Miller.. You start counting money and his next deal is most likely bumped into the $1.5-1.7M range. An upcoming 4th liner costs half of that. He'll be 32 years old, how long before injuries?

Weiss obviously has to be in the discussion if he bounces back for real. Sheahan has already become much better than we thought at the time of the Weiss signing. If Weiss makes himself tradable, he's expendable. But right now it's a longshot.

Objective with all trades should be to balance the team better and make sure we have cap space to retain our youth.

Guys I don't touch other than the very obvious ones:
Abdelkader - We have no other wingers like him on the team, or coming up soon. He'll probably double his salary eventually and it'll be worth it.
Jurco - Right now holds no significant trade value. He can play on the lower lines and his potential upside is well worth waiting for. He'll remain cheap.

 

[Winger98]

Guys I don't touch other than the very obvious ones:
Abdelkader - We have no other wingers like him on the team, or coming up soon. He'll probably double his salary eventually and it'll be worth it.

At what age do average sized physical forwards seem to hit the health wall? He'll be 29 when his next contract comes up, and doubling his salary would put him over $4m a year. He's also never topped 30 points in a season.

Gator is still a guy I would look to sell high on. We have guys with size coming up, and he's the type of guy that I think brings in a value that will be higher than his worth to the team.

 

[Eye of Ra]

If only Franzen could go away.

 

[Shaman464]

We've got a roster now with mostly useful players, so I think there's options. Basically, look at what you have and what you've got coming and can get back. Where do you slot players in etc. It's about building a team and looking at cap hits as much as who the better player is.

Kindl, Andersson and Lashoff are just likely cuts.. not much or no return at all can be expected.

Possibilites:
We have Mantha to replace Franzen's services probably sooner than later. He'll be on ELC for another three years and we could save in a few millions to bolster the defense(and Nyquist's deal). Return has to make sense and make us better overall, it's not just a cap dump.

We've got various speedy centers and Larkin coming up making Helm expendable. Helm turns 28(29 before his contract is up) and will command more money for his services on his next deal. Helm's solid and can get a solid player(defenseman) back, maybe rental for rental trade.

Pulkkinen has a lot to prove still but projects as much of the same of Tatar, and is right-handed to boot. You also have to add to the equation that we have another small skilled winger in Nyquist already. Tatar is the most valuable (likely) trade piece we have, so return has to be strong. It's unlikely you have room for all three of them.

Smith, Quincey and Ericsson.. I think most agree this is where we can make our defense both smoother and more skilled. Smith will cost us at least Kindl money, not too much but his role on the team is also unclear. Quincey will demand similar money with longer term most likely. It's realistic to think a prospect like Marchenko can fill his role -- for a quarter as much. Ericsson is signed and has a longer track record, but right now in a struggle. You have to at least entertain the idea, but he's not the first option to trade admittedly.

Drew Miller.. You start counting money and his next deal is most likely bumped into the $1.5-1.7M range. An upcoming 4th liner costs half of that. He'll be 32 years old, how long before injuries?

Weiss obviously has to be in the discussion if he bounces back for real. Sheahan has already become much better than we thought at the time of the Weiss signing. If Weiss makes himself tradable, he's expendable. But right now it's a longshot.

Objective with all trades should be to balance the team better and make sure we have cap space to retain our youth.

Guys I don't touch other than the very obvious ones:
Abdelkader - We have no other wingers like him on the team, or coming up soon. He'll probably double his salary eventually and it'll be worth it.
Jurco - Right now holds no significant trade value. He can play on the lower lines and his potential upside is well worth waiting for. He'll remain cheap.

Pulkkinen is definitely not the same as other small wingers. He has one huge comparison to Zetterberg: He has an amazingly strong lower-body for his size.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

If only Franzen could go away.

Yeah but not going to happen, Because of the cap recapture penalty, I seriously doubt that any team out there has any interest in him any ways.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If only Franzen could go away.

We would be a lot better without the guy that produces points at the fourth highest rate per ice time?

I really don't understand the Franzen hate. He produces at a better rate per his ice time than Tatar and Nyquist just as an example of why I don't understand how this is going this far.

Production (1 point) per time on ice this season
1.) Weiss 14:13
2.) Datsyuk 18:11
3.) Zetterberg 22:30
4.) Franzen 22:50
5.) Tatar 23:17

We are a far worse team without Johan Franzen. In the future maybe not, but right now he fills a role and lives up to his cap hit quite nicely.

 

[Eye of Ra]

We would be a lot better without the guy that produces points at the fourth highest rate per ice time?

I really don't understand the Franzen hate. He produces at a better rate per his ice time than Tatar and Nyquist.

Production (1 point) per time on ice this season
1.) Weiss 14:13
2.) Datsyuk 18:11
3.) Zetterberg 22:30
4.) Franzen 22:50
5.) Tatar 23:17

Becuse of the contract and softness.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Becuse of the contract and softness.

Those contracts don't worry me. The LTIR loophole is coming on almost all of these.

Franzen is playing fine and really has been for a while. He isn't the 08 hot streak version, but he is a valuable member of the Top 6 carrying a cap hit under 4 Million.

 

[19 for president]

I think below are our top 5 trade assets in no order.

1. Helm (His next contract will price him out of Detroit)
2. Tatar (Most replaceable of the young guys within the system+ value)
3. Smith (Only for an Offensive Upgrade)
4. Abdelkader (Heading towards a Lapointe 2.0 career)
5. Pulu (Basically same as Tats but less proven and thus less valuable)

People I'd be ok dealing but probably not going to interest other teams:

1. Weiss (Sheahan has taken the role we signed him for, but he needs to have a good solid season before anyone will touch him with a 10ft pole)
2. Franzen (Recapture penalty means he won't be dealt, but I'd deal him prior to his body falling apart in the next few seasons)
3. Quincey (I could see him getting dealt in the off season if he keeps playing well, but we don't need him and E)
4. Ericsson (E is playing like garbage, but is part of the Swedish contingent)

Garbage
1. Kindl (Blargh)
2. Lashoff (Blargh 2)
3. Gus (A never healthy backup is useless, should have just committed to Mrzaek as a backup)

 

[icKx]

We would be a lot better without the guy that produces points at the fourth highest rate per ice time?

I really don't understand the Franzen hate. He produces at a better rate per his ice time than Tatar and Nyquist just as an example of why I don't understand how this is going this far.

Production (1 point) per time on ice this season
1.) Weiss 14:13
2.) Datsyuk 18:11
3.) Zetterberg 22:30
4.) Franzen 22:50
5.) Tatar 23:17

We are a far worse team without Johan Franzen. In the future maybe not, but right now he fills a role and lives up to his cap hit quite nicely.

He also averages 1 minute more PP time per game than Weiss and Tatar.

Franzen didn't get signed to produce secondary assists. He's not a center and when he's not scoring he's pretty worthless. Big guy that plays small.

Sheahan and Helm have as many goals and contribute every shift. Especially Sheahan, he's been almost too good to be true.

 

[sakei]

Tatar or helm are those trade pieces. They have most value, and could be easiest guys to replace internally.

Kindl and Lasooff are just bums we sould get rid of. And of course, Cleary after this season. But there's no value on those guys for a trade.

Agreed, but Tatar wont get traded. Holland is too hesitant to give up good players.

 

[sakei]

Yeah, Weiss hasn't played a single game as center at this season, so I don't understand why people are even planning him on the center spot in our current situation. Weiss has sucked (lat last season) in the middle and has been great as RW. So be it. Other guys do better in the middle.

I'm planning Weiss as a C, because he's a natural center and has been great so far. I think it's clear that the Weiss we saw last season was like 10% of his potential bc of his injury woes. Also, playing a C at RW leaves us short of a top9 spot for Pulkkinen, who deserves to be up in the NHL with his current scoring rate.

 

[Sheriff Bert]

Why does everyone still want to trade Tats away? Yeah, he has high value, but so do other players that do not produce at all. Jurco has been my whipping boy for a while now, and until he shows me some stuff that I like, he will continue to be that.

Jurco hasn't has a goal in about 16 games, or a month. Plus he only has two on the season. At this rate, he is on pace for a worse season than last year. Yet, he continues to take ice time from Weiss, and fail to produce. Im sure that Jurco has a high value, so let's trade him. Bring in a defender and call it a day.

Tatar has been one of our most consistent producers, even more so than Nyquist, who has been a little streaky this year.

 

[Shadywing19]

Man, watchin this jets vs leafs game. Is really makin me want byfuglien. Dude is a beast. Physically, defensively and offensively. He's huge. He's top 4. Easily. And he's a righty to boot.

 

[Sheriff Bert]

Man, watchin this jets vs leafs game. Is really makin me want byfuglien. Dude is a beast. Physically, defensively and offensively. He's huge. He's top 4. Easily. And he's a righty to boot.

I'm watching the game too. Byfuglien is playing really well tonight, but he is known to be a streaky player defensively. He often will go stretches where he gets a little lazy on D but play good offensively. That's why he was switched to a wing for some time last year.

If he is available and has a price tag cheaper than Green, Zidlicky, etc., it's an option. But again, his play on defense still worries me a little bit.

 

[sakei]

We've got a roster now with mostly useful players, so I think there's options. Basically, look at what you have and what you've got coming and can get back. Where do you slot players in etc. It's about building a team and looking at cap hits as much as who the better player is.

Kindl, Andersson and Lashoff are just likely cuts.. not much or no return at all can be expected.

Possibilites:
We have Mantha to replace Franzen's services probably sooner than later. He'll be on ELC for another three years and we could save in a few millions to bolster the defense(and Nyquist's deal). Return has to make sense and make us better overall, it's not just a cap dump.

The problem with this is, that Franzen still scores, despite being ridiculously inconsistent and sometimes looks horribly uninterested in participating in any kind of physical game. So him putting up points at the rate he is now makes him still to valuable to drop. Mantha would most probably come into the team and bump Abby down the lineup.

We've got various speedy centers and Larkin coming up making Helm expendable. Helm turns 28(29 before his contract is up) and will command more money for his services on his next deal. Helm's solid and can get a solid player(defenseman) back, maybe rental for rental trade.

As I already stated, Helm already IS expendable, no? He doesnt play C anymore and can be replaced by a prospect winger. Larkin is commited to Univ. of Michigan for a bit, so he is only a midterm-option and wont provide immediate help at C.

Pulkkinen has a lot to prove still but projects as much of the same of Tatar, and is right-handed to boot. You also have to add to the equation that we have another small skilled winger in Nyquist already. Tatar is the most valuable (likely) trade piece we have, so return has to be strong. It's unlikely you have room for all three of them.

The thing is.. both Nyquist and Pulkkinen have an unreal scoring ability and they play a big game with their body strength.

Smith, Quincey and Ericsson.. I think most agree this is where we can make our defense both smoother and more skilled. Smith will cost us at least Kindl money, not too much but his role on the team is also unclear. Quincey will demand similar money with longer term most likely. It's realistic to think a prospect like Marchenko can fill his role -- for a quarter as much. Ericsson is signed and has a longer track record, but right now in a struggle. You have to at least entertain the idea, but he's not the first option to trade admittedly.

Kindl and Lash will free up two spots, Smith could be trade bait. I hope KH works his magic on our defense and somehow frees up space for Ouellet and Sproul/Marchenko.

Drew Miller.. You start counting money and his next deal is most likely bumped into the $1.5-1.7M range. An upcoming 4th liner costs half of that. He'll be 32 years old, how long before injuries?

Drew Miller is not expendable tho. You can't just have four scoring lines and until Nastasiuk or Bertuzzi are ready, we dont really have a REALLY promising hard working forward in our system (am I missing someone?).

 

[sakei]

Why does everyone still want to trade Tats away? Yeah, he has high value, but so do other players that do not produce at all. Jurco has been my whipping boy for a while now, and until he shows me some stuff that I like, he will continue to be that.

Jurco hasn't has a goal in about 16 games, or a month. Plus he only has two on the season. At this rate, he is on pace for a worse season than last year. Yet, he continues to take ice time from Weiss, and fail to produce. Im sure that Jurco has a high value, so let's trade him. Bring in a defender and call it a day.

Tatar has been one of our most consistent producers, even more so than Nyquist, who has been a little streaky this year.

I agree on Jurco, but that's exactly why he proabably doesnt generate much interest. He is talented, he has upside, but he still has to grow into his NHL role. Tats has a great season and is an offensive force, and that's exactly what makes him a valuable trade piece. He's shooting 15.5% at the moment, if he doesn't keep up that rate, his defensive zone issues will lead Babs to play him less. While he could be replaced by Pulkkinen or Mantha, he could be a piece that lands us a decent RHD without giving up a first AND a high-end prospect.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Abdelkader and Helm I am okay with moving. One of Jurco and Pulkkinen I can accept too. I'd like Ericsson gone too. But this the Red Wings, and we don't move anyone until the last possible second.

 

[Sheriff Bert]

Abdelkader and Helm I am okay with moving. One of Jurco and Pulkkinen I can accept too. I'd like Ericsson gone too. But this the Red Wings, and we don't move anyone until the last possible second.

My thought exactly. I would not like to see Tats to go at all. Abby and Helm are great middle six forwards who should generate interest, especially Helm because he is a center.

I don't think we're going to go big with a trade anyways. A more realistic hope for Green would be if he hits free agency. Petry seems more like a guy who Holland would trade for. The Oilers are supposedly open for more quick moves after Perron, and they would probably love a player like Helm.

 

[sakei]

Abdelkader and Helm I am okay with moving. One of Jurco and Pulkkinen I can accept too. I'd like Ericsson gone too. But this the Red Wings, and we don't move anyone until the last possible second.

My thought exactly. I would not like to see Tats to go at all. Abby and Helm are great middle six forwards who should generate interest, especially Helm because he is a center.

I don't think we're going to go big with a trade anyways. A more realistic hope for Green would be if he hits free agency. Petry seems more like a guy who Holland would trade for. The Oilers are supposedly open for more quick moves after Perron, and they would probably love a player like Helm.

The thing is, that you dont get anyone in return that would make our team significantly better for Abby or Ericsson without adding a first and Mantha or Larkin. No team will trade a good D for nothing in return.