Speculation: Our defensive pairings next year?
- Thread starter YNWA14
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trentmccleary
Registered User
Karlsson replaces Gonchar.
Lundin really didn't play much at all.
Benoit isn't gone yet and d-men like him aren't exactly scarce.
Meanwhile;
- we add Cowen
- Wiercioch and Gryba presumably get better next year.
aragorn
Do The Right Thing
- Aug 8, 2004
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I think they start the yr with:
Methot - Karlsson
Cowen - Phillips
Wiercioch - Gryba/Benoit
I think they finish the yr with:
Methot - Karlsson
Cowen - Ceci
Phillips/Wiercioch - Gryba / Benoit as the extra injury replacement.
- I think Phillips splits time on the 3rd pairing between Gryba & Wiercioch depending on who is playing well at the time. Phillips has the experience at playing both the right & left side on defense.
Methot - Karlsson
Cowen - Phillips
Wiercioch - Gryba/Benoit
I think they finish the yr with:
Methot - Karlsson
Cowen - Ceci
Phillips/Wiercioch - Gryba / Benoit as the extra injury replacement.
- I think Phillips splits time on the 3rd pairing between Gryba & Wiercioch depending on who is playing well at the time. Phillips has the experience at playing both the right & left side on defense.
McManked
Ooh to be a Gooner
Let us be clear; the goal is to make a strong push for the cup next year.
8 legitimate NHL defensemen are necessary to make a push; any GM will say as much, and Murray alluded to it yesterday.
Defensively, Weircioch is a bottom pairing guy. He's exposed if he is anything more than that, and a powerplay specialist. He is weak down low and consistently loses puck battles against better forwards.
Gryba is not a top 4 guy either. He replaced Kuba as the guy throwing one pass up through the middle each game last year. He doesn't move the puck well enough at this juncture to be anything more than a bottom pairing D on a good team, and a competent penalty killer. To clarify, he doesn't get beat, but his puck skills aren't at a top 4 level; he only logged those minutes out of necessity last year.
Phillips' athleticism is on the decline; his stamina is questionable and therefore we're better off limiting his minutes. I remember making it a drinking game this past season each time Phillips would be gassed and lay out superman style with the poke check to make a play. He's optimal as a 5/6 with major penalty killing responsibilities. I don't trust him with second pairing ES minutes over 82 games and a playoff run, as by the end of a long season against tougher matchups I'd have little confidence in his ability to elevate his game.
So to me, those three represent our 5/6/7.
Karlsson, Methot, and Cowen are the ES/PP/PK guys logging major minutes. They are the only true top 4 guys on the depth chart in my eyes.
We are essentially missing a middle pairing, jack-of-all-trades defenseman, unless Weircioch magically gains 20 pounds and becomes defensively sound, unless Gryba all of a sudden begins to see the ice clearer, or unless Phillips stays away from the taps at the Big Rig all summer and trains with Greco every day.
8 legitimate NHL defensemen are necessary to make a push; any GM will say as much, and Murray alluded to it yesterday.
Defensively, Weircioch is a bottom pairing guy. He's exposed if he is anything more than that, and a powerplay specialist. He is weak down low and consistently loses puck battles against better forwards.
Gryba is not a top 4 guy either. He replaced Kuba as the guy throwing one pass up through the middle each game last year. He doesn't move the puck well enough at this juncture to be anything more than a bottom pairing D on a good team, and a competent penalty killer. To clarify, he doesn't get beat, but his puck skills aren't at a top 4 level; he only logged those minutes out of necessity last year.
Phillips' athleticism is on the decline; his stamina is questionable and therefore we're better off limiting his minutes. I remember making it a drinking game this past season each time Phillips would be gassed and lay out superman style with the poke check to make a play. He's optimal as a 5/6 with major penalty killing responsibilities. I don't trust him with second pairing ES minutes over 82 games and a playoff run, as by the end of a long season against tougher matchups I'd have little confidence in his ability to elevate his game.
So to me, those three represent our 5/6/7.
Karlsson, Methot, and Cowen are the ES/PP/PK guys logging major minutes. They are the only true top 4 guys on the depth chart in my eyes.
We are essentially missing a middle pairing, jack-of-all-trades defenseman, unless Weircioch magically gains 20 pounds and becomes defensively sound, unless Gryba all of a sudden begins to see the ice clearer, or unless Phillips stays away from the taps at the Big Rig all summer and trains with Greco every day.
DJB
Registered User
I don't like the Cowen - Gryba pairing either, but I would like it a bit more if they were the bottom pair. Unfortunately they are not so to me is very concerning.
CanadianHockey
Smith - Alfie
Ference wouldn't be the worst of additions on a short term deal. He's got experience, he's a leader, and he could be slotted into the top-4 with Cowen.
Methot - Karlsson
Ference - Cowen
Phillips - Wiercioch
Gryba
Perhaps equally importantly - if Wiercioch shows up to camp and outplays Ference, it's not a travesty or an insult to relegate the latter onto the third pairing.
Methot - Karlsson
Ference - Cowen
Phillips - Wiercioch
Gryba
Perhaps equally importantly - if Wiercioch shows up to camp and outplays Ference, it's not a travesty or an insult to relegate the latter onto the third pairing.
Same as last year, while the names may have changed the storyline is the same.
The Sens made the playoffs without Cowen and Karlsson for the most part. Yet losing Gonchar and having Cowen and Karlsson back with the rest of the D that got them to round 2, the team is suddenly going anywhere unless Gonchar is replaced.
I think the Sens making the playoffs so early in the rebuild have lead people to believe this team is one or two players away, realistically its not.
So players like Wiercoich, Gryba, and Boro are going to be given the opportunity to show they are NHL players and until it is proven they aren't, they are going to play.
While adding a player like Blum is conceivable as insurance for the right side of the D, Wiercoich will get every opportunity to be a regular next season, as will Gryba.
Murray is also likely to sign Benoit as insurance.
McManked
Ooh to be a Gooner
But there were a lot of circumstances that happened last year that, in my opinion, are no guarantees to happen again.
I think the team can make the playoffs with that group of 6, but I certainly don't think it can do any damage in the playoffs.
So the Sens sign Ference and have both Cowen and Wiercoich trying to transition to the right side?
McManked
Ooh to be a Gooner
Yeah, I think out of all defenceman on our team, Cowen is the least likely to play the right side.
Wiercioch and Phillips are the ones that would play. I'd move Ference to the right side before Cowen.
Wiercioch and Phillips are the ones that would play. I'd move Ference to the right side before Cowen.
Can't disagree, but there is a long list of things that could happen that would leave this team near the bottom of the standings.
The what if list :
Spezza's back issues render him ineffective
Karlsson's ankle does return to 100%, losing his speed and quickness
Michalek's knee doesn't hold up
Anderson has an off year
Phillips finally declines
Alfie performance is final caught by Father Time
etc
etc
etc
GMs can't plan that way, otherwise Murray would have to replace most of his top six forwards and 1/2 his D.
Melnyk and Murray committed to the rebuild and at that time felt the team would be a playoff contender in 2-3 years, NOT a Cup contender.
So the team is ahead of schedule, it doesn't mean the Sens should now abandon the plan that got them here, if anything it reinforces the plan should be adhered to.
Therefore players like Ference shouldn't be considered until trade deadline day, until then continue the youth movement and live with its ups and downs.
PS None of the above precludes adding a young proven top six forward or top 4 D, though it is highly unlikely Murray has the assets to acquire both.
McManked
Ooh to be a Gooner
All I'm saying is that with the current crop of defenders, we aren't going anywhere.
With a solid 2nd pairing RD, we can go somewhere.
People can go along with this we're not a cup contender stuff all they want, but if the pros of each of the last two years join forces then we'd be pretty damn close.
Respect your opinion, I just don't subscribe to it.
Also didn't suggest they wouldn't be a contender, just believe if they are, the things you are suggesting are better dealt with at trade deadline time than now.
bert
Registered User
They need a veteran minute eater for two more years until we see if Wiercioch, Cowen, Gryba or Ceci are legit top 4 guys at this point none of them have proven it.
I think they should go after Boyle.
I think they should go after Boyle.
aragorn
Do The Right Thing
- Aug 8, 2004
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- 9,143
The Sens will have a good three months of the season to see if they are NHL ready & will also have plenty of time to see if Ceci is ready. First, he'll spend a few months in Bingo to see if he can handle the AHL & I believe we all think he will do fine there, then they will give him a number of games in the NHL to see if he can handle that. He is a high 1st rd pick afterall & should be able to handle it. If he can't they will know & have plenty of time to make a deal to address it. They are in year three of their rebuild phase afterall.
Of course, if they make a deal for Boyle than Ceci could be brought along slower. Of course, Boyle is SJ top offensive defenceman & Karlsson is Ottawa's top offensive defenceman. Whenever people bring up these kind of defencemen I always wonder if they would come to Ottawa to be a #2 defenceman behind Karlsson when they are used to be the top dog on defence. What do you think about that considering egos, PP time, etc...?
Sensinitis
Registered User
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trentmccleary
Registered User
I don't understand the preoccupation with the defense corps, the belief that a top-4 d-man will make us contender and the implications that somehow our forwards aren't even less proven or more likely to hold us back than the defense corps.
Karlsson (27:09) and Methot (22:13) are proven top-4 d-men. Do I need to prove this? That's 50% of our top-4.
Chris Phillips (21:02) has been a top-4 d-man for over a decade, but that's not enough for the crowd who think he's finished. The coach of the year just played him as the #3 on a team that made the playoffs. He is still capable of being a top-4 d-men, even though he'll likely have his minutes cut back to the 19 he played the year before.
Cowen (20:17) missed most of the season, but was used heavily as a 5th d-man in his rookie year. He should be expected to take the step forward next season into the top-4.
Gryba (20:16) just played most of the season as the #4 on a playoff team in his rookie year.
Bryan Murray, the guy who did nothing to add another d-man when Karlsson & Cowen were "injured for the rest of the season" during Gryba and Wiercioch's rookie seasons... probably sees this as five top-4 d-men.
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Meanwhile, in the rosy world up front:
Spezza 92
Michalek 66
Greening 37
C. Neil 33
4 ****ing forwards out of 13 signed and RFA forwards have ever had a 30+ point season in their lives.
Spezza, Michalek, Greening, Neil, Smith, Condra, Zibanejad, Silfverberg, Conacher, Turris, O'Brien, Pageau, Kassian
Why can't Phillips, Cowen and Gryba compete for two spots in the top-4?
... Oh, because they're not "proven".
What the **** have these players proven that those d-men haven't?
Greening, Neil, Smith, Condra, Zibanejad, Silfverberg, Conacher, Turris, O'Brien, Pageau, Kassian
Karlsson (27:09) and Methot (22:13) are proven top-4 d-men. Do I need to prove this? That's 50% of our top-4.
Chris Phillips (21:02) has been a top-4 d-man for over a decade, but that's not enough for the crowd who think he's finished. The coach of the year just played him as the #3 on a team that made the playoffs. He is still capable of being a top-4 d-men, even though he'll likely have his minutes cut back to the 19 he played the year before.
Cowen (20:17) missed most of the season, but was used heavily as a 5th d-man in his rookie year. He should be expected to take the step forward next season into the top-4.
Gryba (20:16) just played most of the season as the #4 on a playoff team in his rookie year.
Bryan Murray, the guy who did nothing to add another d-man when Karlsson & Cowen were "injured for the rest of the season" during Gryba and Wiercioch's rookie seasons... probably sees this as five top-4 d-men.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile, in the rosy world up front:
Spezza 92
Michalek 66
Greening 37
C. Neil 33
4 ****ing forwards out of 13 signed and RFA forwards have ever had a 30+ point season in their lives.
Spezza, Michalek, Greening, Neil, Smith, Condra, Zibanejad, Silfverberg, Conacher, Turris, O'Brien, Pageau, Kassian
Why can't Phillips, Cowen and Gryba compete for two spots in the top-4?
... Oh, because they're not "proven".
What the **** have these players proven that those d-men haven't?
Greening, Neil, Smith, Condra, Zibanejad, Silfverberg, Conacher, Turris, O'Brien, Pageau, Kassian
If I wanted to discuss the team's needs up front, I'd do so in a different thread.I don't understand the preoccupation with the defense corps, the belief that a top-4 d-man will make us contender and the implications that somehow our forwards aren't even less proven or more likely to hold us back than the defense corps.
Karlsson (27:09) and Methot (22:13) are proven top-4 d-men. Do I need to prove this? That's 50% of our top-4.
Chris Phillips (21:02) has been a top-4 d-man for over a decade, but that's not enough for the crowd who think he's finished. The coach of the year just played him as the #3 on a team that made the playoffs. He is still capable of being a top-4 d-men, even though he'll likely have his minutes cut back to the 19 he played the year before.
Cowen (20:17) missed most of the season, but was used heavily as a 5th d-man in his rookie year. He should be expected to take the step forward next season into the top-4.
Gryba (20:16) just played most of the season as the #4 on a playoff team in his rookie year.
Bryan Murray, the guy who did nothing to add another d-man when Karlsson & Cowen were "injured for the rest of the season" during Gryba and Wiercioch's rookie seasons... probably sees this as five top-4 d-men.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile, in the rosy world up front:
Spezza 92
Michalek 66
Greening 37
C. Neil 33
4 ****ing forwards out of 13 signed and RFA forwards have ever had a 30+ point season in their lives.
Spezza, Michalek, Greening, Neil, Smith, Condra, Zibanejad, Silfverberg, Conacher, Turris, O'Brien, Pageau, Kassian
Why can't Phillips, Cowen and Gryba compete for two spots in the top-4?
... Oh, because they're not "proven".
What the **** have these players proven that those d-men haven't?
Greening, Neil, Smith, Condra, Zibanejad, Silfverberg, Conacher, Turris, O'Brien, Pageau, Kassian
This one happens to be about our defense going into next year, hence mine and others' preoccupation with the defense corps.
If we want our beloved team to contend, the aforementioned upgrade (top 4 all around guy) is what I'd like to see. If it doesn't happen, I'm sure we'll manage to make the playoffs again, and hey, that's cool.
