Our Defence for next season

Martin Skoula

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Oct 18, 2017
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Dermott isn't smart enough to be facing top lines consistently in my opinion. Hopefully he develops the poise he needs with time but I wouldn't want him in my top-4 in the playoffs right now, he'd be the first guy the other team targets.
 

unitedstars87

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Jun 2, 2006
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Dermy played right side almost every year I have seen him play since he has been 6. He knows exactly how to play the right side. I think a lot of non hockey people thinking and saying stuff they really don't know or understand. He may not be a good fit for Rielly not sure. Than I thought Barrie would be a poor fit too and reality is it has worked out fine.
Bigger issue is in playoff type hockey we need more than Muzz to stem the tide when Marchand comes head hunting.
Not sure how you came up with the conclusion not too many non hockey people know he is not a good fit on the right side based off you watching him since he was 6 years old. Questions 1) how much has he played on the right side with the Marlies and what was his success? 2) how much has he played on the right side with the Leafs and what was his success? From the sample size I got last especially in the playoffs against the bruins he did struggle. Mind you it could be related to the shoulder injury and paired with Gardiner.
 

Rare Jewel

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Jan 11, 2007
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Far too early to move Dermott. I mean in less it's something really big or interesting. But he missed camp and has recovered quite well.

As for the defence, I'd be staying away from the big contracts. If a guy like Tanev wants to come here for a reasonable amount then I'd look at that. Trade is likely the option though IMO mostly money does have go out as well.

The pairings I'm not sure on, but now the likely guys are Rielly, Dermott, Holl, Sandin and Liljegren. I think two, maybe three more are needed. A top 4 guy and a defensive/vet to rotate with Sandin or Liljegren.
 

LeafGrief

Shambles in my brain
Apr 10, 2015
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I hope we re-sign Muzzin. Maybe we have to give him a few more dollars to get a shorter term, but he's unique on our blueline and we'd be searching for his replacement the minute he left. Of course, if we go after Pietrangelo all bets are off. Pietrangelo would be an absolute dream come true and we would be utterly insane to not throw a blank check at him.

Rielly - Dermott
Muzzin - Holl
Sandin - Liljegren

I have no problems whatsoever with playing two rookies on the bottom pairing. They can be sheltered as needed and the pairings will get bumped and moved around throughout the season as we deal with injuries and as both of them develop. Split the time between the top two pairings evenly with Muzzin/Holl getting more defensive minutes and Rielly/Dermott more offensive minutes.
 
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Blue Nate

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Sep 27, 2017
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If Pietrangelo is testing free agency you make him your #1 target no matter what. He is everything this team need x 10 and would make us immediate cup favourites for 2021, regardless of who we'd have to move to fit him under the cap. Muzzin and Barrie walk, Dermott re-signed on cheap. He hasn't really earned much tbh:

Rielly - Pietrangelo
Dermott - Holl
Sandin - Liljegren

People may point out the bottom pair as a weak link but in my opinion it may be Dermott if he doesn't take another step.
 

Hockey Crazy

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Dec 30, 2008
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I'd love to get Pietro, but it's not so realistic.

Reilly - Savard/Vatanen
Dermott - Holl
Sandin - Liljigren

That's only costing us $16 mil which allows us to grab a very good backup, and save some cash for Andersen/Reilly extensions.
 

hobarth

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Jul 10, 2011
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Muzzin(5)/Barrie(6)
Chychrun(4.6)/Pesce(4)
Sandin(1)/Holl(2)
Lilly(1)/Marincin(.85)

That's 25.1 mil. for the d so some paring of the forwards would need to be done.

I just like Barrie's game over Rielly's so I'd trade Rielly for Pesce +. I don't think it would be long before Sandin moves up.
 
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67Leafs67

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Nov 8, 2014
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Theoretically, you've got the following:

Rielly - ?
Dermott - Holl
Sandin - Liljegren

Granted, this is makes the assumption that Dermott, Sandin, & Liljegren are all ready to jump to the next level of their development, but I'm fairly confident in all of them. Sandin & Liljegren look phenomenal at the AHL, and both have plenty of experience there, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we see one, or both, of them in the blue & white in the 19-20 season for a stretch. In the same way, Dermott has excelled as the team's #5 defender for what is now two full seasons of hockey...he's shown he is more than capable of driving play at an elite level on the third pairing no matter who his partner is, but the question is, can he step into a special teams role and be a good 2nd pairing guy? I believe he can...he probably won't produce elite results, but I think he'll tread water and gradually get better. He has a lot of tools to be a good defensive player, but there are still a lot of rough edges.

So that leaves a gaping hole on our top pairing, because as good as Holl has been, and as much promise as Dermott/Liljegren/Sandin show, none of them are top pairing material. You probably also want to fill the gaps by adding a solid #3 guy, in the case that Holl/Dermott isn't second pairing material next season, but that move seems less pertinent.

I think Toronto has a few options.

A) Re-sign --> They could potentially bring back Barrie or Muzzin (or both, with other roster moves), but the question is, for how long, and how much? There's no question, both players would add lots of value to the roster, especially Muzzin. I would be perfectly comfortable with Muzzin/Holl as a shutdown pairing, and then Rielly/Dermott as an overwhelming offense pairing, and Sandin/Liljegren as a sheltered third pairing. I'd be less comfortable with Barrie coming back, because then I don't think Toronto has even one legitimate potential shutdown pairing, and is somehow even less defensively adept than last season. But if Muzzin especially (will be 31 in the off-season) wants a long deal, is it worth it?

B) Trades --> This is something that could even happen before the 2019-20 season is up...it happened last season when Toronto acquired Muzzin. Maybe Toronto will trade some of their excessive forward depth for defensive options. Some names I've seen floated that seem interesting are ones like Savard & Andersson...somebody who drives defensive results well, and is a right handed shot preferably.

C) UFA --> The other option is that Toronto uses the money from Barrie/Muzzin/Ceci walking to pursue a different big fish...a lot of people like the potential of Pietrangelo coming to Toronto, which would be pretty sweet, but that contract would likely be very, very hefty.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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Muzzin, who'll be 31 years old in February, isn't a guarantee to return. He's been decent but not great. I'd slot him in as a mid-tier #4 d-man. He's currently earning 4.45M this season and he signed that deal when he was in his prime, or close to it. His average salary has been 4M a year for this contract.

I don't see them offering more than 3.5M a year for his services and he probably won't take it.

I could see him settling at 4 years in the 4-5 mil range. If thr Leafs medical staff think he will stay healthy in the foreseable future id do that pretty easily.
 
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JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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Not sure how you came up with the conclusion not too many non hockey people know he is not a good fit on the right side based off you watching him since he was 6 years old. Questions 1) how much has he played on the right side with the Marlies and what was his success? 2) how much has he played on the right side with the Leafs and what was his success? From the sample size I got last especially in the playoffs against the bruins he did struggle. Mind you it could be related to the shoulder injury and paired with Gardiner.
He has played most of his career on the right side from YSE to Erie to Marlies. It is only on the Babs Leafs recently that he has become a left side fixture. It is hard to argue about his success and partners but I would say he was the better in the past than he is right now so since he played mostly on the right side when he was more successful. In terms of his technical skating skills both forwards and backwards he played on the right side because he turns equally well both ways which is RARE for defensemen. and his hands are both good so he can handle either side.
 
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18leafsfan18

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Jul 28, 2012
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I could see him settling at 4 years in the 4-5 mil range. If thr Leafs medical staff think he will stay healthy in the foreseable future id do that pretty easily.

If Muzzin would sign for that, Leafs absolutely have to sign that.

Sandin and Lily will be up next season, and with Ceci money coming off, they should be able to add another solid D to shore up the D.
 

meefer

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Jun 9, 2015
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Rielly-Savard/Manson (preferably Manson as he is signed an extra year)
Muzzin- Holl
Sandin/Dermott-Liljegren/Braun

Muzz @ 4.5/5 over 4 years.
Braun @ 1.25 over 2 years.

Total D at around 22 million.
 
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JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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If Muzzin would sign for that, Leafs absolutely have to sign that.

Sandin and Lily will be up next season, and with Ceci money coming off, they should be able to add another solid D to shore up the D.
Yes it will happen. The issue is the 5th year. 5M for 5 years??? I hope Leafs hold firm at $5M for 3-4 years. It is not about a discount it is the extra year or two.
 

Northernguy10

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May 26, 2013
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I'm much higher on Dermott than a lot of people here. I'll take his speed, quickness and mobility on my team any day of the week. He is trying to "break in" to the toughest league in the world at the toughest position to do so in the game and trying to do it on a defensively inept team. He doesn't have the luxury that a Carlo or McAvoy in Boston had to learn the ropes on a veteran, structurally sound team.Does he make mistakes?. Hell yeah he does. I've seen Bobby Orr (yes I'm that old) and Lidstrom make mistakes also. News flash: They all do...The best ones make less and make more good plays and I believe Dermott will continue to improve hopefully with some help from a team that progresses as the next few years go by. I see him at about 60% of what will be the finished product. To want to give up on him , like some posters here do, when he is nowhere near his prime, make no sense to me.
 
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sxvnert

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Nov 23, 2015
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Plan A

-Pietrangelo - 7yrs/10m AAV/70m
-Muzzin - 5yrs/5.25 AAV/26.25m

Rielly Pietrangelo
Muzzin
Holl
Sandin Lili

Plan B (Barrie - 8yrs/8 AAV/64m)

-Barrie - 8yrs/8m AAV/64m
-Muzzin - 5yrs/5.25 AAV/26.25m

Rielly Barrie
Muzzin
Holl
Sandin Lili

Plan C (Top Pairing Defensive RD)

-Muzzin - 5yrs/5.25 AAV/26.25m

Rielly --------
Muzzin
Lili
Sandin Holl
 

goleafsgo1990

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Feb 7, 2012
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Rielly-Pietrangelo
Dermott-Holl
Sandin-Liljegren

Not sure if that is likely or even possible, depending on how the forward group shakes out. I think the other pending UFAs on the blueline will be more difficult to re-sign than Holl was (assuming the team and/or player wishes to do so). Have to think there will be mutual interest with the Leafs and Pietrangelo as well if the latter gets to unrestricted free agency.

Just don't see how we're supposed to pay yet another player close to 10mil.

Also, Tavares contract will be bad enough in a couple years, not sure we need another albatross contract.

Is Pietrangelo the perfect fit? Of course. If you're gonna go all in and have a cup window of maybe 3 years, go for it. Dubas has already made many similar moves so why not..We just better win a damn cup.
 
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Rare Jewel

Patience
Jan 11, 2007
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I could see him settling at 4 years in the 4-5 mil range. If thr Leafs medical staff think he will stay healthy in the foreseable future id do that pretty easily.

The issue that I always come back to for Muzzin is comparable contracts. How does he take that when Spurgeon not too long ago signed for $7.5m?
 

sxvnert

Registered User
Nov 23, 2015
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Just don't see how we're supposed to pay yet another player close to 10mil.

Easy. Thin up a bit up front and replace with entry level deals.

Also, Tavares contract will be bad enough in a couple years, not sure we need another albatross contract.

Time to go all in while Matthews is still around. Signing him to a five year deal with the last year NMC protected is all but guaranteed he'll either fleece during that last year (since Dubas has no leverage left) or he bolts JT style for Arizona.
 

Egghead1999

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Nov 9, 2007
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You're right, it doesn't make sense that some fans are writing off two first picks that have played well in AHL.

Liljegren will be 21 and Sandin 20, by the time next seasons starts. This isn't like the old days where you keep your first round picks in the minors till their mid twenties. First round picks are a lot more physically and mentally prepared than they were in Gretzky's era.

We get it, rookies make mistakes in the NHL, but guess what so do veterans. You don't know what you have unless you give them a chance.
This is stupid to mark them as #6, #5; this is D, not F. NHL season is a very long season. They may run out of gas in mid-Feb. Don't understand why Leafs don't call them up now :huh::huh::huh:
 

JT AM da real deal

Registered User
Oct 4, 2018
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I'm much higher on Dermott than a lot of people here. I'll take his speed, quickness and mobility on my team any day of the week. He is trying to "break in" to the toughest league in the world at the toughest position to do so in the game and trying to do it on a defensively inept team. He doesn't have the luxury that a Carlo or McAvoy in Boston had to learn the ropes on a veteran, structurally sound team.Does he make mistakes?. Hell yeah he does. I've seen Bobby Orr (yes I'm that old) and Lidstrom make mistakes also. News flash: They all do...The best ones make less and make more good plays and I believe Dermott will continue to improve hopefully with some help from a team that progresses as the next few years go by. I see him at about 60% of what will be the finished product. To want to give up on him , like some posters here do, when he is nowhere near his prime, make no sense to me.
Finally some common sense here. People doing it to Rielly too. Rielly and Dermy need solid vet seasoned partners. Rielly for another year or two and Dermy for another 3-5 years. This is reality. Our CAP will cause us problems for a few years more on defense. Not enough $$ lined up for competent NHL seasoned defenders. There is no quick fix on defense. These kids nowadays think guys are ready after a few years. What a joke. Orr often says he was just starting to learn NHL defense but he was too hurt to deploy what he learned.
 

horner

Registered User
May 22, 2007
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Deadline trades
Rielly for Pietrangelo ( signed 9 mil * 7 yrs )
Barrie for a 1st Rd pk + prospect
Ceci ( 1 mil retained ) for 4th
Johnson for 1st
1st Rd pk for Brendan Dillion ( signed 5 mil * 5 yrs
5th for Holzer

Pietrangelo Muzzin
Holl Dillon
Ljiligren Dermot
Holzer Sandin

A dream
 
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Funk21

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Mar 6, 2013
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Plan A

-Pietrangelo - 7yrs/10m AAV/70m
-Muzzin - 5yrs/5.25 AAV/26.25m

Rielly Pietrangelo
Muzzin
Holl
Sandin Lili

Plan B (Barrie - 8yrs/8 AAV/64m)

-Barrie - 8yrs/8m AAV/64m
-Muzzin - 5yrs/5.25 AAV/26.25m

Rielly Barrie
Muzzin
Holl
Sandin Lili

Plan C (Top Pairing Defensive RD)

-Muzzin - 5yrs/5.25 AAV/26.25m

Rielly --------
Muzzin
Lili
Sandin Holl

Go to Capfriendly to see if you numbers work because by my estimates you will not be able hand out contracts and have a team in Plan A or B.

As many have stated and myself in other threads about our D, Pietrangelo is target number one this offseason. He is everything we need and more.

The question is how much are we willing to pay a 31 year old D for 7 more years. The Great thing is we got Reilly who should complement him greatly. Ideally he comes in around 8.5-9. 9 being the absolute max I would pay. Personally I think we need Muzzin back too but it would have to be at 5 million no more. You offer him an extra year to make the lower dollar amount more palatable. We are still scraping by on the skin of our teeth mind you.

Plus we still need to sign Andersen and Reilly after too.
 

Big Muddy

Registered User
Dec 15, 2019
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Dubas will have a lot of work to do. 3 UFA + 1 RFA.

Here is what CapFriendly has as far as free agent defenders.

Browse - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Not that many options for RD outside of Pietrangelo, Schultz & Hamonic. Maybe a LD can switch to RD to open up more possibilities?

Of course, I think we expect Liljegren & Sandin to graduate and to be penciled into our lineup.
 
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