UPDATE 2/26 No more extensions in LeBreton mediation, Heritage minister says

[ottawah]

Technically your right. No arguments.

I just think at this point the city expects more than just condos and an aquarium or similar. Voters want the sens and developers want the sens. I think that along stalemates the process until a sale

You are right in that the voters and the developers want the Sens. But not at a certain cost, and certainly not with Melnyk still on board, Sure people want the Sens, but if the option is to delay LRT by 15 years to get the arena downtown, that will not fly at all with voters. Jim Watson is a likeable guy, I think the city is decently happy with him, but they are not enamored with him. Even then, they still will hold him on a huge pedestal compared to Melnyk, the dislike is that high, and if it comes down to it, from a public relations stand point Watson would not lose much support if the team moved. But Watson would lose significant support if he caved to Melnyk (to the extent Edmonton did), it would be the last election he would win. And the federal government currently is so concerned with the optics in certain types of people (in which Melnyk falls to the exact opposite) that I cannot see any movement there either.

But the words you use "stalemate the process" is pretty much bang on. The NCC is in uncharted territory. Ruddy will focus his attention and capital elsewhere I suspect. And attendance will continue to decline while Melnyk postures.

 

[ottawah]

Article in the Sun today which actually paraphrases a lot of what I have been saying about the demographics in Ottawa and why the downtown location may not be the silver bullet some people proclaim.

GIBBONS: With tech booming again, Melnyk may be better off keeping Sens in Kanata

I personally think its better downtown, but it has to be very price conscious, not the 25% ticket price increase commonly talked about. And I also believe that attendance is the west end will not spring back that easily simply because of the alienation of fans by current ownership.

 

[DowntownBooster]

^^^According to that article, staying in Kanata may be the best thing for the Senators to do instead of trying to move the team into downtown Ottawa.

 

[dirk41]

Article in the Sun today which actually paraphrases a lot of what I have been saying about the demographics in Ottawa and why the downtown location may not be the silver bullet some people proclaim.

GIBBONS: With tech booming again, Melnyk may be better off keeping Sens in Kanata

I personally think its better downtown, but it has to be very price conscious, not the 25% ticket price increase commonly talked about. And I also believe that attendance is the west end will not spring back that easily simply because of the alienation of fans by current ownership.

The article has zero numbers.

I found an article that cites the report. In Kanata, there are now 19,477 tech-sector jobs (up 18% since 2015) and 33,236 total jobs (up 9% from 2015). There are about 660,000 jobs (128,900 federal government workers, including contractors) in the Ottawa region (Quebec and Ontario). So, after a boom, Kanata has about 5% of the jobs in the region--and this is why the team should stay there. . . .

 

[NorthCoast]

You are right in that the voters and the developers want the Sens. But not at a certain cost, and certainly not with Melnyk still on board, Sure people want the Sens, but if the option is to delay LRT by 15 years to get the arena downtown, that will not fly at all with voters. Jim Watson is a likeable guy, I think the city is decently happy with him, but they are not enamored with him. Even then, they still will hold him on a huge pedestal compared to Melnyk, the dislike is that high, and if it comes down to it, from a public relations stand point Watson would not lose much support if the team moved. But Watson would lose significant support if he caved to Melnyk (to the extent Edmonton did), it would be the last election he would win. And the federal government currently is so concerned with the optics in certain types of people (in which Melnyk falls to the exact opposite) that I cannot see any movement there either.

But the words you use "stalemate the process" is pretty much bang on. The NCC is in uncharted territory. Ruddy will focus his attention and capital elsewhere I suspect. And attendance will continue to decline while Melnyk postures.

I agree that they won't let it delay LRT, but they can do that and still proceed with lebreton after. It'll just cost a bit more and the stations might not be as integrated into the development as they would like.

I disagree on Watson surviving if Sens left. No question that he has overwhelming support right now to stand up to Melnyk, but many people hold that view because they believe relocation is impossible, so why not call Melnyks bluffs.

But if the team actually moved, that's hard to have happen on your watch. Even if it was 95% Melnyk s fault. Enough mud would be slung that I don't see Watson surviving it.

I cannot think of one person that would take a developed lebreton over an NHL team if you could only choose one.

 

[ottawah]

I agree that they won't let it delay LRT, but they can do that and still proceed with lebreton after. It'll just cost a bit more and the stations might not be as integrated into the development as they would like.

I cannot think of one person that would take a developed lebreton over an NHL team if you could only choose one.

I do not think the city has 600M to build the rink and do LRT at the same time. They have already pushed the debt number pretty high for LRT as it is and needs too push it much further if it actually wants it to be useful, because even once it opens, its acknowledged that its not making any meaningful change in transit times. Thats what I mean by a choice between the 2. There are only so many large ticket items the city can afford. Until LRT han hit the park and rides in the suburbs, its usefulness is muted, and actually will be a huge determent to attendance as people in the west and south ends will not be able to go very easily.

The development of Lebtreton though has nothing specifically to do with the city they are not mutually exclusive.

 

[NorthCoast]

I do not think the city has 600M to build the rink and do LRT at the same time. They have already pushed the debt number pretty high for LRT as it is and needs too push it much further if it actually wants it to be useful, because even once it opens, its acknowledged that its not making any meaningful change in transit times. Thats what I mean by a choice between the 2. There are only so many large ticket items the city can afford. Until LRT han hit the park and rides in the suburbs, its usefulness is muted, and actually will be a huge determent to attendance as people in the west and south ends will not be able to go very easily.

The development of Lebtreton though has nothing specifically to do with the city they are not mutually exclusive.

Sadly I have more and more confidence by the day that the suburbs extension will be in place around the same time a stadium opens it's doors at lebreton.

Agreed, the city would never spend that much, and certainly not upfront. I do think that if worst came to worst, (which I still think is nearly impossible because of all the other roadblocks) and the relocation threat was imminent, that they would at least offer an amount that via a new service tax ala Edmonton to ensure what we put forward was overwhelmingly fair to the NHL, combined with development money on the table.

Legally I have not read enough about the mechanics of Lebreton to know the city's full role, so I will trust your judgement on that. But just from voters perspective, if we just built two LRT stations and are partnering on a ton of infrastructure related to the land in the middle of our city with the history it has...for god's sake I hope we have some influence. But then again, it's the NCC, so you are probably right.

 

[GrantLemons]

^^^According to that article, staying in Kanata may be the best thing for the Senators to do instead of trying to move the team into downtown Ottawa.

Honestly probably a product of the Twitter bot/PR budget Melnyk set aside to try to gain leverage in Lebreton.

Kanata and tech is booming for sure (I know, I work and live here), but the team belongs downtown in a new arena/entertainment district.

 

[RandR]

I cannot think of one person that would take a developed lebreton over an NHL team if you could only choose one.

Far from everybody in Ottawa is a fan of NHL hockey in Ottawa.

A new poll suggests most people in the National Capital Region would be disappointed if the current dispute over LeBreton Flats ices plans to develop the prime downtown land, but don't necessarily see a new arena as the project's key element.

Arena no longer key to public support for LeBreton project, poll shows | CBC News

And during the Lebreton bidding process there were plenty of complaints and expressions of disappointment regarding the fact that both of the final bids featured an NHL-size arena. Just to provide one quote from the NCC report of the public consultation process:

A higher proportion of comments regarding the hockey arena and hockey team are critical of the Senators being the focal point of the development. Although specific criticisms of this idea vary, the main sentiment expressed by respondents is that LeBreton Flats requires an attraction that will be appealing to a broader cross-section of the public than hockey fans. There are also concerns that the area will not be vibrant on days when the Senators are not playing.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/ncc-ccn/doc...report_170427_211939.pdf?mtime=20170427211939

Of course, nobody was actually asked a few weeks ago or a few years ago if they would take a developed LeBreton over an NHL team as if they could only have one. It would be unfortunate if it came down to one or the other, but if so I'd choose Lebreton over the arena and I am sure I am not alone.

 

[NorthCoast]

Far from everybody in Ottawa is a fan of NHL hockey in Ottawa.



Arena no longer key to public support for LeBreton project, poll shows | CBC News

And during the Lebreton bidding process there were plenty of complaints and expressions of disappointment regarding the fact that both of the final bids featured an NHL-size arena. Just to provide one quote from the NCC report of the public consultation process:



http://s3.amazonaws.com/ncc-ccn/doc...report_170427_211939.pdf?mtime=20170427211939

Of course, nobody was actually asked a few weeks ago or a few years ago if they would take a developed LeBreton over an NHL team as if they could only have one. It would be unfortunate if it came down to one or the other, but if so I'd choose Lebreton over the arena and I am sure I am not alone.

I here what you are saying. But from that poll we know 41% think the sens are crucial to the project.

Of the remaining 59%, do you think that they are all willing to go forward with Lebreton without something non-sens that is crucial?

In other words, what if 10% believe an aquarium is crucial, and 15% believe a casino is crucial...this is why I disliked the questions in this poll.

In other words, you may get 59% agreeing that the sens aren't needed, but I doubt that they also agree with what is needed.

ie: I think it is safe to say that of all the anchor pieces to a potential Lebreton project, an NHL arena probably galvanizes the most support, not a majority of support, but more support than anything else you would put there.

 

[RandR]

I here what you are saying. But from that poll we know 41% think the sens are crucial to the project.

Of the remaining 59%, do you think that they are all willing to go forward with Lebreton without something non-sens that is crucial?

In other words, what if 10% believe an aquarium is crucial, and 15% believe a casino is crucial...this is why I disliked the questions in this poll.

In other words, you may get 59% agreeing that the sens aren't needed, but I doubt that they also agree with what is needed.

ie: I think it is safe to say that of all the anchor pieces to a potential Lebreton project, an NHL arena probably galvanizes the most support, not a majority of support, but more support than anything else you would put there.

I agree with the conclusion that the Ekos president voiced about that recent poll:

"I think there's some sense that we'd like to have a hockey arena as the centre of this development, but if that's not happening, let's move on," Graves said. "If that's what's standing in the way, then let's just drop it."

So you may be right on your last point in particular, but I think public support could easily galvanize around a variety of proposals if the NCC launched another bid process even if the winning bid did not feature most people's first choice for a focal point. After waiting so many years, I think what's most important now is not whether the focal point is an arena or a casino or anything else in particular (within reason), but that the development gets done and is something that contributes to a sense of pride in Canada's capital city.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

I don’t think it’s about profit. It’s about politics. Quebec will also have just Montreal against them. I’m not saying Ottawa will move to Quebec, I’m saying the NahL won’t hesitate to jettison the Sens to the USA. I think Quebec will be expansion as well, if the league gets off the 32 team horse.

There would be very Few major markets with NHL ready arenas left in the us if the Yotes move to Houston. Atlantas Hockey configuration is unknown at this point after the remodel

 

[MNNumbers]

To get back to Ottawa.....

From this point, where the RLG marriage is in shambles.....what route is there to an arena on LeBreton?

Do we expect that the NCC goes back to the start and issues a new RFP? It seems they said they would have to.
Does anyone other than DevCore put forth a proposal at that point?
Assuming they do, what are the odds Melnyk will work with them?

On Melnyk's side.....
How sure are we that all he wants is a free arena, and he is not interested otherwise?
How sure are we that he is losing his shirt at Kanata?

These seem to be the questions.

 

[NorthCoast]

I agree with the conclusion that the Ekos president voiced about that recent poll:


So you may be right on your last point in particular, but I think public support could easily galvanize around a variety of proposals if the NCC launched another bid process even if the winning bid did not feature most people's first choice for a focal point. After waiting so many years, I think what's most important now is not whether the focal point is an arena or a casino or anything else in particular (within reason), but that the development gets done and is something that contributes to a sense of pride in Canada's capital city.

That's fair and sure, never say never.

But until an actual alternative choice is in front of us I think it's hard to really project how the public will respond.

I still maintain that I think all parties will at least let things play out a bit, as frustrating as that might be to those who have put in so much work just to get us to this point.

 

[DrakeAndJosh]

Melnyk getting counter-sued now for a BILLION dollars lol.

 

[18Hossa]

Melnyk getting counter-sued now for a BILLION dollars lol.

Link to the article https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/trinity-development-sues-eugene-melnyk-csmi-for-1-billion-1.4222596

 

[ForumNamePending]

Melnyk getting counter-sued now for a BILLION dollars lol.

 

[LeHab]

Melnyk getting counter-sued now for a BILLION dollars lol.

My lawsuit is bigger than your lawsuit.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

 

[RandR]

This is exactly what I and many other people have believed from the start .... that Melynk is not putting any of his own money into this venture and simply expects somebody else to build an arena for him.

 

[LeHab]

This is exactly what I and many other people have believed from the start .... that Melynk is not putting any of his own money into this venture and simply expects somebody else to build an arena for him.

As far as I know he asked the city to pay for it, answer was no. No threats of reloc were advanced - a guy can ask. Plan B was to fund (partially or totally) the arena from revenues generated by the trinity project. In other words this was expected from the get go?

 

[Mightygoose]

This counter sue was expected and it's even uglier now.

If Ruddy's claim is true that Melnyk has no intention of paying for the arena and wants free rent for 30 years...plus a degree of control over Lebreton, how does Melnyk get another partner without giving up some control of the team?

I can't see this getting resolved anytime soon and on the heels of the NCC's meeting next month.

Question to anyone with how the legal system works (as I don't), what is the next steps here? Is it straight to the discovery phase? if so, any idea on how soon this can happen? Assuming this doesn't somehow get settled out of court, which I can't see.

 

[Mightygoose]

CSMI's official response.



With both parties in litigation, why would Melnyk come public with a proposes resolution? Something tells me this proposal was already made to Trinity and not workable so the team is looking to win the court of public opinion....is that more winnable than their case?

 

[MNNumbers]

^^^^^

Solution is basically this:
Trinity builds the arena, but Melnyk gets the operating rights.

This is the equivalent of Ottawa building for him.

Selfish and not going anywhere. The Operating rights are where the $$ is. But the team having operating rights is couched in language like this:
CSMI assumes all responsibility for operating the arena for the full 30 year lease.....

"Responsibility" is the word they use....but it means "right to make the profit off of the facility."

 

[CanadianHockey]

^^^^^

Solution is basically this:
Trinity builds the arena, but Melnyk gets the operating rights.

This is the equivalent of Ottawa building for him.

Selfish and not going anywhere. The Operating rights are where the $$ is. But the team having operating rights is couched in language like this:
CSMI assumes all responsibility for operating the arena for the full 30 year lease.....

And Melnyk would give up every other responsibility he had in the project (ie his condos)