Ottawa Senators announce completion of 135 million financing | MOD warning post #303

[coladin]

Well.... aren’t you?...part of the fanbase? The same one you say sucks?

It requires a simple yes or no answer.

Now now, we are not fans. Rather, we are customers.

 

[coladin]

Marketing is a pretty weak excuse for playoff game attendance. There may be other excuses, but no way, no how, should Ottawa need to be marketed into playoff hockey seats.

You had to see it to believe it. It was incredible. So embarrassing. And the sad thing was how passionate the fans were that game. Sounded like 20k. I would put up our diehards against any in the league. We just need more.

 

[Ray Kinsella]

Now now, we are not fans. Rather, we are customers.

Apparently he’s still thinking about it, but thanks for coming to the rescue. So in hockey, one is either a fan or a customer? I was certain both could easily apply.

 

[coladin]

Apparently he’s still thinking about it, but thanks for coming to the rescue. So in hockey, one is either a fan or a customer? I was certain both could easily apply.

Well, if you go to the games for the fine dining at Club Red, you are a customer. If you come for the hockey, you may be a fan!

 

[Ray Kinsella]

Well, if you go to the games for the fine dining at Club Red, you are a customer. If you come for the hockey, you may be a fan!

Oh, ok.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Oh you! You mean this "simple enquiry" right?

"You talk a big game from 4000km away. Where's your season ticket package located? How many playoff games did you attend in 2017?"

It's all good dude, I always enjoy your little angry posts

Back to the topic at hand, do we have a new owner yet?!?

Marketing seems like it could do wonders for brining on new fans, and expanding the brand. If EM is as broke as it looks, obviously that kind of expenditure would be among the first to be nixed. As many have mentioned, creating new fans is important, but requires an initial investment of capital.

Convincing current Sens fans that they should go to a playoff game, or keep their tickets when our biggest rivals come to town, isn't a marketing issue, maybe it's more a production quality issue as someone alluded to, or maybe it's the distance, and the difficulty in making a night out to the game an all encompassing night out on the town. Supporting the team should feel less like a duty, and more like a party.

Either way, we need an investment in marketing for sure, but fan apathy needs something else to combat it. A new arena, and new owner would do it I think, just a solid sense of a fresh start, clean sheet, new beginning, etc...

 

[branch]

Who is Leeder....please, he is an employee who works for a multi million dollar company in the sports business who is not selling out games and handing out about 250k-375k in tickets per game!! And the owner had enough. Sure, let the owner keep losing money, these freebie tickets are doing a great job enticing new season tickets. The only way the EM out crowd would ever go to a game, even under new ownership is if they would be part of a freebie program of tickets, oh and lets not forget about including free parking as the tickets would never be enough and garner more pathetic whining and excuses. If EK leaves (he is not), it would be all the cheap, excuse making fans. Ha......EM called you all out and you snivelled and made signs. Great job.

Starting to think this is legitimately Eugene Melnyk or his lapdog...not his lapdog figuratively, but literally his Bichon Frise dog

 

[Engineer]

ok

 

[Ice-Tray]

I'm not, I juts find it hilarious how defensive you get when challenged at your own game. You constantly rag on fans for not attending games, and you haven't attended a game in years.


This benefits the Senators in exactly 0 ways, with the exception of a Jersey purchase.



You are 4000 kms away and feel your opinions on local marketing is as valid as the locals who are actually immersed in it? You don't see the tv ads, you don't see the billboard [lack of] ads, you don't see their failure to advertise their superstar and draw people to the game. You have no reference of what we [don't] see marketed in Ottawa.

I'm not at all defensive, I've been asking you to flesh out your opinion over the pot shots so I could respond. You seem clever at times, but are off the mark on this one. I enjoy the discussions, and have no issue with you coming at me.

Yeah, I think I'll just leave this second point alone. This particular point is directed at every single Sens fan that doesn't live in the city.

I think you've missed the point here. No one is saying that marketing is good, or even effective. In fact I mentioned this in one of my last posts, but you ignored the discussion in favour of jabs. Marketing is important to grow the fanbase, both in and outside of the city (ironic given how you feel about out of town fans), it is also important as a means of keeping the team in forefront of people's attention, and pique the interest of casual or non-fans. But marketing is not the difference maker between hockey fans attending a playoff game. Fans of the team, of which there are tens of thousands more than the arena can hold, don't need to be marketed into the stands to watch the playoffs.

People stayed away for other reasons, some of which have been discussed here, be it fan apathy, ticket release issues, arena distance, costs, LIVING ACROSS THE COUNTRY, or production value. All of these could have played a part, but marketing doesn't seem like an authentic reason to me at all. The point is that there could be zero marketing, and a market of Ottawa's size and passion has enough loyal fans to fill the arena several times over, so something else is at play.

You don't need to live in the market and watch commercials to come to that conclusion. Clearly you're taking this personally, like I'm attacking you as a fan, and maybe you didn't go to any playoff games and feel offended, who knows, but I think getting to the real issues is far more important that ruffling feathers. As I think almost everyone has, it seems that everything ties back to ownership and his lack of funding for the team. No marketing is a money issue, no staff is a money issue, small budget is a money issue, and now the image of the owner has created fan apathy and anger.

 

[Engineer]

ok

 

[coladin]

The season ticket holders I know that aren’t renewing all complain about the arena experience and cite that as the reason for not remewing. Old crappy cheer songs, frigid walks to their car after rushing out of the arena at game’s end, it all gets stale. They might not need marketing in a Canadian hockey town, but they need to up their production game.

Whatever the in game experience is in the future, that crappy frigid walk will still be there. Sounds more apathetic than anything. We need the next generation of fans to bring new energy. Unfortunately, watching the captain leave is not the way to do it, is it?

 

[coladin]

Starting to think this is legitimately Eugene Melnyk or his lapdog...not his lapdog figuratively, but literally his Bichon Frise dog

Clearly, you are ok with lifetime contracts handed out just because Cyril seems like a nice guy. He is a nice guy, have talked to him quite a few times. In the end, season ticket sales plummeted under his watch and he came up with zilch to improve it, including the marketing campaigns that everyone goes on and on and on about.

So, everyone wants to hold Melnyk accountable from Barbados, for the stupid stuff he gets himself into, yet Leeder, the man who actually runs the team is not accountable whatsoever for the failings of the business? Okie dokie.

 

[Ice-Tray]

If you want to have a discussion, you need to remove the personal attacks, especially the baseless and completely wrong ones like this. You've been taking it personal, ever since I asked how many games you attend.


And another stupid assumption, I did attend playoff games, where were you again? Right, that's what I thought.



Marketing in Ottawa has dropped off a cliff in recent years, it's embarrassingly bad. From laughworthy commercials, to stupid slogans like "Young and Hungry", to failing to realise that Karlsson should be the constant focus. It's been a long time since I've seen a commercial or billboard that made me think "damn, I really want to go spend my money and watch the Sens".

Show Karlsson dominating, show his Norris trophies, draw the fans in with ads focused on his domination as the best D in the league. Seems obvious doesn't it? Sens rarely ever use him as their focal point in ads. Since you arent' in city you don't see this.



Attendance began to dip prior to the City vs Melnyk issues. I'm sure you'd be more aware of that fact if you were local. Hence why your opinion isn't as valid when discussing local marketing.

Yes there have been many issues lately, Pheonix being the worst of it all. But if you think the Sens improved their advertising to draw average fans during their playoffs, you'd be wrong. It was the same old terrible marketing. And I'm not going to argue about "marketing isn't effective, or shouldn't matter in the playoffs". Effective marketing makes a big difference and there are thousands of journal articles proving so.

You posting about personal attacks and getting defensive is, interesting. We can leave it at that.

I think you're a bit confused. It's well known that I'm out of town, and I'm not ashamed of going to my one Sens game a year. It's not feasible for me to go to more until Seattle gets a team so there's no reason for me to be defensive. I'm quite proud to be one of the hundreds of Sens fans that show up to the Sens-Canucks games to cheer for our squad. You're down this path on your own unfortunately, but carry on if it suits you.

1) Calling someone's opinion a "stupid assumption" isn't exactly a discussion starter, so I'll leave that one be. It is worth noting that you're really making a big deal about you attending more games than me, as though it gives your opinions more value. I'm not sure that's a consensus opinion around here.

2) Most of the middle bit seems to be about arguing how bad you think Sens marketing is, which is totally fine, and I think a position that is held be everyone? I'm not sure I've seen a single post to the contrary.

3) Uhmm, attendance issues have been widely discussed, and the number are widely known to people in and out of the city through this thing called the internet. This board has had many discussions about attendance dropping, it's not really a 'must live in Ottawa to know the numbers' kind of issue. To your other point, I certainly didn't use this year as an explanation for last year's playoff numbers, that wouldn't make Sens would it? Also, EM has been an issue in various fronts well before calling you out for not attending games. Attendance numbers have dropped, in large part due to a change in freebie policy, but also other factors, WHICH IS WHAT THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT ESSENTIALLY.

4) No where have I, or anyone for that matter, ever said that the Sens increased their marketing effectiveness during the playoffs. In fact, my point is that marketing, good or bad, isn't what draws Sens fans to playoff games. Sure it would be helpful to have a real marketing department, for an ECF game, people not showing up in Ottawa is due to more serious underlying issues than the type or frequency of commercials.

You seem to be arguing something different, and seem a little confused about the point I was making. Suffice it to say that fans not showing up is an issue, and finding out why that is is worth a discussion. It's doesn't have to be taken as Ottawa fans are lame, as well all know that there are well enough die hards to fill the rink, the issue is why that isn't happening, and I personally don't buy that it's bad commercials.

 

[branch]

Clearly, you are ok with lifetime contracts handed out just because Cyril seems like a nice guy. He is a nice guy, have talked to him quite a few times. In the end, season ticket sales plummeted under his watch and he came up with zilch to improve it, including the marketing campaigns that everyone goes on and on and on about.

So, everyone wants to hold Melnyk accountable from Barbados, for the stupid stuff he gets himself into, yet Leeder, the man who actually runs the team is not accountable whatsoever for the failings of the business? Okie dokie.

You say ticket sales plummeted under his watch...he was under Eugene's watch himself. Ultimate business success falls onto the shoulders of the leadership, e.g. The Eugene. The fact that tickets aren't being sold is veritable proof that the fanbase does not want to support the product that meddlesome Eugene is shoving down our throats. How do you not see this?

 

[slamigo]

To be fair, the on ice product has had some rough showings the past few years.
It really truly sucks to spend a load of money to bring your family out to a game and have the team play to a 2-0 loss. The Boucher trap system is not much fun to watch.
But seriously, if I spend $300-400 to bring my family (I have 3 kids) to a game (which I have multiple times) it really leaves a sour taste in your mouth when it's a terrible game.
The in-game experience is awful. Just awful. And there are a lot of fans there that treat the arena like it's their living room at home and would appreciate it if everyone would just please keep it down. It's baffling. If the game is a snoozer as well, there's no saving it with 'in-game atmosphere'. You just get frustrated at having wasted a lot of money on a boring game.

You do that a few times and you will quickly lose your willingness to pay top dollar. The team obviously can't win every game, but holy crap, you have to give the fans something to cheer for while they're there.

 

[Silencio]

What are some examples of a really good in-game NHL experience? In terms of presentation, atmosphere etc. the other arenas I've been to (Buffalo, Toronto and Vancouver) are just as boring and generic as Ottawa.

 

[Engineer]

ok

 

[coladin]

You say ticket sales plummeted under his watch...he was under Eugene's watch himself. Ultimate business success falls onto the shoulders of the leadership, e.g. The Eugene. The fact that tickets aren't being sold is veritable proof that the fanbase does not want to support the product that meddlesome Eugene is shoving down our throats. How do you not see this?

So the owner fires himself or will he fire the person responsible? How do you not see that??? You want him to say that due to the lack of tickets sales that he will sell the team and leave Leeder behind? Melnyk acted and that is what business owners do. I find it comical that people cannot understand that simple, time proven action of people being fired for underperforming.

If the customers do not want to support the product, the product will continue to suffer as the business will lack the necessary revenues to improve the product. How is the tomato sauce going to get better without having the money to buy Marzano tomatoes instead of the cheap bargain tomatoes?

Oh wait, our "product" is human. So the customers do not support the players , especially the one who played on one leg. The one who breaks fingers trying to win. The rookie who breaks his wrist in a meaningless preseason game blocking a shot.

The fans will.

 

[mysens]

You say ticket sales plummeted under his watch...he was under Eugene's watch himself. Ultimate business success falls onto the shoulders of the leadership, e.g. The Eugene. The fact that tickets aren't being sold is veritable proof that the fanbase does not want to support the product that meddlesome Eugene is shoving down our throats. How do you not see this?

Wrong. Owner gives his accredited employee all the rope available and as time goes on he hangs himself. How about EM gave too much credit to his employees and staff and didn't meddle with anything until he realized these guys are screwing up and not doing their job. Losing money hand over fists and giving a ridiculous amount of freebies. So how about EM has this sense of paranoia and has become a watchdog looking over his business which is on the brink of......well you know what.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You really need to look in the mirror, your lack of self awareness is only rivalled by one other on this forum.


You have to be illiterate at this point. These statements that you made are assumptions, not opinions: "maybe you didn't go to any playoff games and feel offended". And both those assumptions are wrong, hence, you made stupid assumptions.


You claim that marketing in the playoffs doesn't matter, now you claim that marketing is bad.
You don't get it both ways. If marketing in the playoffs doesn't matter, than demand would have superseded supply. It didn't, hence, the marketing wasn't effective, as the tickets didn't sell. Econ doesn't get more basic than this. Time to go back to class, dawg.



So you're trying to get me to stop talking about issues related to attendance, saying it's all been discussed, then start yelling "which is what the discussion is about essentially". Do you not see your logical disconnect here? Do I actually need to spell your confusion to you?

Also lol at the caps, your anger is humorous, dawg. Amazing how the simple question of how many games you attend has you this defensive.


Right, you admit you have no understanding of economics and marketing, that's all you had to say at the beginning.

Classic Ice-Tray, every time his opinions are challenged the challenger is confused. I've seen you use this deflection tactic against almost every single person you have discussed with on this forum.

Basic logic indicates that when everyone you discuss with is always confused, that you have come to the wrong conclusion on who is confused.

1) Glad you're sharing how you feel about me, can't say that I truly care, but thanks?

2) You seem offended. 'Maybe' means 'maybe', assumptions are opinions, and I'm glad to hear you went to some playoff games, must have been a blast.

3) The two things are not mutually exclusive. You can have bad marketing (i.e. our team) but not have it make a difference either way, like when it comes to playoff hockey where you don't generally need to convince or rile fans up to get them out to games in Canada. My point is that it doesn't matter either way, your point is that the marketing is bad. I've agreed that it sounds that way, but it doesn't preclude my point. I don't think your econ lesson makes a whole lot of sense in the way you're trying to use it, but maybe I'm missing something.

4) I'm not trying to stop you from talking about anything, I'm trying to explain to you that if you want to continue this discussion with me personally, it would be helpful if we were talking about the same things. From your posts it seems that you're almost tripping over yourself to be insulting, and in the process missing the mark on what I'm saying. Nothing I can really do about that other than try and narrow the focus for you, so that you can understand.

5) I wasn't yelling, I use caps for emphasis, so that should you be skimming the paragraphs, that part should at least be read and understood. It looks like the first part works, not so much the second part.

6) You use the amount of games I can attend, and the word 'defensive' a lot. Seems to be an issue.

7) It's not everyone, it's just you. Reading this post it's not clear what position you're even arguing, I'm not even sure you disagree with what I'm saying. What is clear is that you have issues with me and are trying to set a new record for a jab per post quota.

8) Me: marketing is not the reason a few key games last playoff run were not sold out. You: Sens marketing is bad, Ice-Tray is defensive, self-unaware, makes stupid assumptions, has a less valuable opinion as an out of town fan, deflects arguments all the time, lacks basic logic, definitely doesn't understand basic economics, and probably a few more that I missed. Interestingly I'm not sure we disagree on the actual point I made given that you don't seem to address it, but I agree with you're central point about the quality of marketing, though I'm not so sure about the rest of it, lol.

 

[branch]

So the owner fires himself or will he fire the person responsible? How do you not see that??? You want him to say that due to the lack of tickets sales that he will sell the team and leave Leeder behind? Melnyk acted and that is what business owners do. I find it comical that people cannot understand that simple, time proven action of people being fired for underperforming.

If the customers do not want to support the product, the product will continue to suffer as the business will lack the necessary revenues to improve the product. How is the tomato sauce going to get better without having the money to buy Marzano tomatoes instead of the cheap bargain tomatoes?

Oh wait, our "product" is human. So the customers do not support the players , especially the one who played on one leg. The one who breaks fingers trying to win. The rookie who breaks his wrist in a meaningless preseason game blocking a shot.

The fans will.

I’m not bitching that Leeder is gone. I’m bitching because people cannot see that the ineptitude starts from the very top. Eugene is a failed pharmaceutical exec. He clearly cannot handle this kind of business.

 

[branch]

Wrong. Owner gives his accredited employee all the rope available and as time goes on he hangs himself. How about EM gave too much credit to his employees and staff and didn't meddle with anything until he realized these guys are screwing up and not doing their job. Losing money hand over fists and giving a ridiculous amount of freebies. So how about EM has this sense of paranoia and has become a watchdog looking over his business which is on the brink of......well you know what.

Eugene is in charge of everything now...and it sure is going swimmingly keep dreaming Eugene.

 

[Engineer]

ok

 

[Ice-Tray]

I think most can agree that EM should be hiring people to run the organization.

 

[slamigo]

Wrong. Owner gives his accredited employee all the rope available and as time goes on he hangs himself. How about EM gave too much credit to his employees and staff and didn't meddle with anything until he realized these guys are screwing up and not doing their job. Losing money hand over fists and giving a ridiculous amount of freebies. So how about EM has this sense of paranoia and has become a watchdog looking over his business which is on the brink of......well you know what.

Which is why Melnyk needs to bring in a true hockey professional that has a few decades of experience.
Melnyk doesn't have to spend to the cap to make the Senators a better product. I honestly wouldn't mind Brian Burke coming in as President.
Also, let more 3rd party retailers into the building. Instead of tarping seats off, remove portions to build new retail space etc.
Partner with Uber on game nights for priority lanes for pick up/drop off. I would even lease some of the existing parking space for restaurants. Or allow a bunch of food trucks to operate in the parking area for a simulated 'tailgate experience'. Start the transition towards Lebreton by reinvigorating the CTC.
Drive around Ottawa and count cars. Seriously. Do it one day. The amount of Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Tesla, etc rolling around is a testament to how much money is in this city. People have money to spend. They simply will not spend it on things that don't appear to be worth the money.
But the most important thing would be to get people used to going to the CTC on non-hockey game days.