aragorn
Do The Right Thing
- Aug 8, 2004
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At the same time is probably extremely rare, maybe Tampa or Colorado are the closest?
News Article: Ottawa Senators “Untouchable” Prospects
- Thread starter AchtzehnBaby
- Start date
dumbdick
Galactic Defender
- May 31, 2008
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I hate when people say a guy is "untouchable".
What they always mean is "I don't think a team would give us the right value, so I doubt he gets traded".
And then you have the untouchables like Karl, who ultimately get touched, and the fan base realizes they rather like it when their guys get touched, provided it's the right kind of touch, videlicet, a trade that we win.
What they always mean is "I don't think a team would give us the right value, so I doubt he gets traded".
And then you have the untouchables like Karl, who ultimately get touched, and the fan base realizes they rather like it when their guys get touched, provided it's the right kind of touch, videlicet, a trade that we win.
Flyers fan, just visiting. To answer your question, the Flyers have 7/9 of their own picks in their top 9 (same as Tampa) and 10/12 forwards overall (Hayes via FA and Voracek via trade), 4/6 or 5/6 drafted D (depending if both Braun and Gustaffson are in the lineup) and 1/2 goalies drafted (Elliot via FA). It's good to see players come up through the system and grow together. Going to be a deep group in Ottawa in 2-3 years.
dumbdick
Galactic Defender
- May 31, 2008
- 11,350
- 3,770
I think it's situational. It seems to be a good thing for Tampa. I was merely wondering how common of an occurrence it was. I think we often assume that any forward that has a successful final year of junior or first year of pro is automatically a piece to the puzzle. I don't see this team being a contender with 8/9 of the top 9 forwards being drafted by the team, at least not with the current prospects.
DylanSensFan
BEESHIP: NBH
Tkachuk is still a prospect and I hope he retires here. He is absolutely the type of player one wins a cup with.
aragorn
Do The Right Thing
- Aug 8, 2004
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Not right away or not at all? I don't see it right away myself, I think it could take a few yrs depending how long it takes some of these guys to reach their potential in the NHL but I think it's possible. Of course, something could happen, it always seems to happen with this team to change things & I'm quite sure they will need to bring in a player or two to contribute to a winning team.
Certainly not right away, and likely not at all. I think we're guilty of massively overrating some of these guys. Look back a few posts on this thread. Sokolov is slotted on the third line. He was passed over twice and was ranked in the 3rd or 4th round by most scouting services.
I see two forwards that are first line material, and one of them hasn't played a game in the NHL (Tkachuk and Stuetzle). The others are great pieces, but are ceiling 2nd liners, in my opinion. Add in the almost certainty that not all of them hit their ceiling and you're looking at a few second liners and some spare parts.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very excited for the likes of Formenton, Batherson and Norris, but what's the likelihood that all three reach their ceiling? Is it not possible, or likely, that one of them busts?
aragorn
Do The Right Thing
- Aug 8, 2004
- 28,596
- 9,111
Two things, first I think some of these projections as to where some of these guys will play may be yrs away, it certainly been the case for me, I think a few of them could be 3 or more yrs away but hopefully we get a couple of surprises. Second, Stuetzle is a top 3 player & a number of people on this board think he should be in the lineup to start the season, I;m not quite sure of that, I could easily see him stay in German for another yr especially given his injury to completely recover from it before deciding to challenge for an NHL job.
And if I could add a 3rd, it would be that Jarventie & Sokolov already have NHL size so they don't need or have to add all that much more & really only need experience & to learn the NHL systems & ways. Sokolov is an overager as well & could be a little more ready to step into the NHL, we'll see how ready he is after he plays in Belleville to start the season. I'm excited about the team, but have reservations especially for next yr & the following yr could be when they start to make their push.
I find the author’s writing style too fauning. It seems to be an affliction of some writers on that site.
FolignoQuantumLeap
Don't Hold The Door
Tkachuk is literally not a prospect. Unless we're completely changing what that word means in the english language and how this forum defines what a prospect is. That's just an irrefutable fact. I don't see the point of denying that.
AchtzehnBaby
Global Matador
Oddly enough there is a draft every year. It’s not like we won’t add prospects over the next couple years.
I don't want to trade Formenton just because I'm so intrigued with what he'd become. I'd say Sanderson and Stuetzle are untouchables. It'd be hard to get legit value for either of them and we're better off waiting to see what we have with them unless we receive an overpayment. Norris is close to being untouchable, he's been trending in the right direction in every way and we'd be daft to not let him try and earn a spot on this team as a top 6 forward
They are written in a style to make the reader fall in love with the team.
They seem to be written to appeal to a team’s fan base.
It was after Joni Pitkanen (in my avatar) many years ago.
Now my best party trick is getting tagged when teams are playing @ Pittsburgh.
I don’t like using the term “untouchable”. Even the original “Untouchables” were touched by Capone’s mobsters. The most “untouchable” player of all time (Gretzky) was traded. Karlsson was close to being a keeper but he was traded. I prefer to talk about players who are viewed as “core” players who are viewed as the most highly skilled and valuable players on the team.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
That would take some time to verify but Sens often had a LOT of draftees on their teams. For example, 23 players that played on the 2012-13 team were drafted by Ottawa
The cool thing about "prospects" is you have no idea about this.
Taking for example the 2011 pool voted here on HFB...
16. Mark Borowiecki
17. Mark Stone
18. Mike Hoffman
19. Eric Gryba
20. Jim O'Brien
21. Derek Grant
22. Marcus Sorensen
23. Jean-Gabriel Pageau
26. Kaspars Daugavins
27. Fredrik Claesson
28. Chris Wideman
38. Ryan Dzingel
People didn't believe much in Pageau, Hoffman, Stone and Dzingel but it's a pretty good list for prospects that didn't even make the top-15
I have been following the Sens prospect pools as close as possible for a long time and while we had some good/great pools before, nothing comes close to what we have now. So saying that only Tkachuk and Stuetzle will be 1st liners and NONE of Norris, Batherson, Jarventie, Logan Brown, etc could is not only conservative but ultra pessimistic. The good news is if we already have 2, you basically only need just 1 more... Chances are extremely good that we'll developp AT LEAST another one.
Norris, Batherson, Logan Brown, Formenton, Jarventie, Greig, Balcers, Abramov, Pinto, White, Sokolov, Crookshank could all be offensive contributors. More will be added in the next drafts, you can always make trades or even sign a UFA like we did with Dadonov
The goal is to build a solid top-9. The "4th line" is much easier to fill with guys like Paul and Chlapik or also by trading for a guy like Watson. There is actually 14 prospects/young players that can help build the best possible top-9, plus good stop gaps like Connor Brown or Evgeni Dadonov.
What we need to realize is the amplitude of the rebuild, we basically have 2 prospect pools in one. We developped with our own picks (being a rebuilding team, we are getting prime pieces like Tkachuk and Sanderson and the Sens often find gems like Batherson, Wolanin and Formenton for example) and then acquired another great collection of prospects by trading every proven player or stars (in their prime) from the 2017 ECF team.
Lots of possibilities, we can afford several guys to bust. But we need to hit on guys like Stuetzle, Tkachuk and Norris for sure. May the best of the rest win.
What is even better is the Defense and Goaltending pipelines look as good if not better :
Chabot, Sanderson, Brannstrom, JBD, Wolanin, Thomson, Kleven, Jaros, Zub, Lajoie, Guenette
Murray, Daccord, Sogaard, Hogberg, Mandolese, Merilainen, Gustavsson
We really don't need to "hit" on every prospect, like not at all. If Stuetzle and Sanderson hit, if Murray regains his form, we have :
Tkachuk-Stuetzle
Chabot-Sanderson
Murray
That could be a pretty good core to build around but I think these guys will have a lot of support and competition so they'll have to be very good to prove they are the best Ottawa players. Like no one expected Mark Stone to be that good so don't be surprised to see a Norris or Batherson boom.
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A couple of thoughts on this
1. What exactly is a first liner? I kinda think if HF settled on a definition of 1st liner, many NHL teams wouldn't have 3 of them. You're noting we have 2.
2. Floors and ceilings are interesting. So are roles on a team. Look at Formenton as an example. In my mind, his floor is that he'll be able to skate against any 1st line team in the league and have half the 1st liners he plays against saying "i hate that prick" Ceiling starts to come into play when we start talking about points how many points can he put up.
What's going on right now is the depth of the pool is such that we don't need the pool to hit it's ceiling. Obviously we need some guys to do that, but other guys hitting their floor compliments the guys that hit the ceiling.
And it's not far away either. It starts in the 21-22 season for the majority of the forward talent. Add a year or two after for the D talent
When I think "first line" I think of forwards that are legitimate top forwards. Likely in the top 20 in their position. I would be happy to use the word "star" in replacement. I think Tkachuk can be in the top 20 LWs in the NHL, and I think that Stutzle will be a top 20 LW or C down the road.
In terms of "ceiling" what I'm referring to is that I believe that the Formentons, Norris', Bathersons all have to reach the level that the majority of this board has assumed they'll reach; something that I don't think is realistic.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
"First liner" is an arbitrary term. If you throw a career third liner on the first line due to an injury, is he automatically a first line player? There are other situations where non-first line talents get put on the first line (experimenting, creating a spark during a slump, etc).
JD1 asked me what my definition of a "first liner" was. I don't think you're a first line talent simply by virtue of playing a game on the first line. That's why I said that I use the term in conjunction with "star".
