Other Chicago & General Sports Thread LVII: Bulls draft Carter & Hutchison

[RayP]

Yeah, you can’t underestimate their love for Bama. They’ll justify it by saying only loss was against Auburn and ignore lack of quality wins.

 

[Illinihockey]

Its tough for me that teams are penalized for playing an extra game. If no conference championship games then Wisconsin is in, Clemson is in, Auburn is in. They lose and they are out even though no one else is playing.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Every year Bama has gotten into the playoff they've won the SEC, so they clearly deserved to be there. So I don't exactly get this idea that the committee loves them and will put them in and have 2 SEC teams. What happened before 2014 with LSU and Bama being 1 & 2 is irrelevant, as there wasn't pressure to include as many of the P5 conferences with there only being 2 teams, plus the computers had input on the rankings, while now it's all the committee.

 

[piteus]

My assumptions of how the college football playoffs will play out is as follows:

Clemson gets in if they beat Miami.
Wisconsin gets in if they beat Ohio State.
Oklahoma gets in if they beat TCU.
Georgia gets in if they beat Auburn.
Auburn gets in if they beat Georgia.
Alabama gets in if Clemson, Wisconsin, or Oklahoma lose.
Miami gets in if they beat Clemson and Wisconsin or Oklahoma lose.
Ohio State gets in if they beat Wisconsin and both Clemson and Oklahoma lose.

Tl;dnr - Clemson, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Georgia, and Auburn control their destinies. Alabama needs a bit of help, Miami needs to win and a bit of help, and Ohio State needs to win and a lot of help.

IMO, I don't think Miami needs any help. If they beat Clemson on a neutral field they beat the #1 team in the nation. That's a better 1 loss resume than Bama. I don't think Miami is better than Bama, but they have the far better resume. Notice how a 2 loss Auburn is #2 after beating two #1 teams at HOME. Beating a #1 team is a big deal.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Its tough for me that teams are penalized for playing an extra game. If no conference championship games then Wisconsin is in, Clemson is in, Auburn is in. They lose and they are out even though no one else is playing.

Yeah, that's why they need to eventually go to 6. Conference championships will be de facto playoff games regardless of team's records, with potentially 1 loser added to the field (but could be a team that didn't make it, as in Bama's case this year).

 

[piteus]

Every year Bama has gotten into the playoff they've won the SEC, so they clearly deserved to be there. So I don't exactly get this idea that the committee loves them and will put them in and have 2 SEC teams. What happened before 2014 with LSU and Bama being 1 & 2 is irrelevant, as there wasn't pressure to include as many of the P5 conferences with there only being 2 teams, plus the computers had input on the rankings, while now it's all the committee.

They are arguing being human. We all know Bama is one of the top 4 teams in the country. However, the resume suggests they need Bucky or Okie to lose to get in. If the committee looks at every team's resume by a year on year basis, Bama needs a lot of help to get in. Their best win is LSU and didn't win their conference.

 

[Rooh]

I worry about Bagley's defense especially if he's going to be playing C on the Bulls.

Coach K is an awful defensive coach, Bagley would've been better off going to Kentucky or USC.

 

[piteus]

I worry about Bagley's defense especially if he's going to be playing C on the Bulls.

Coach K is an awful defensive coach, Bagley would've been better off going to Kentucky or USC.

Huh? USC east or USC west? The best defensive coaches in college basketball are Tony Bennett, Mark Few, Archie Miller, Mike White, Wright ...

Calipari is not known for his defense. He runs a very good offensive scheme. Don't let one Final Four run by Frank Martin fool you about defense.

Bagley went to K because he could get him eligible quickly. The NCAA does not question the rat. While Duke doesn't play defense, their offense is first rate.

It's not like Duke players can't play defense. Tatum, Battier, Hill, Duantay Jones, etc. were / are known for their defense in the NBA. A one and done is not going to learn much defense in college.

Defense is not the issue with Bagley. It's his shooting. He needs to improve that part of this game. Getting pushed around at 18 years old vs. 22 year olds upper classmen happens. Markkanen couldn't rebound at Arizona and look what he's doing in the NBA.

The NBA is changing. Centers are very different nowadays. Even Kevin Durant, Al Horford, and LeMarcus Aldridge play a lot of center. Embiid , Towns, and Davis also roam the perimeter. That's why I think Markkanen can bulk up and play center. If anything, Bagley would take the quicker forward over Markannen. Markkanen would be deadly if a center defended him.

That said, Bagley had a terrible game tonight. He had a tough time dealing with Indiana's packline. He'll have even a tougher time against UVA. Even then he had 23 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists tonight. The hype train is just starting. I have Carolina and UVA friends already dreading playing Bagley. I haven't seen a first year talent like Bagley in the ACC in a while.

 

[Rooh]

Huh? USC east or USC west? The best defensive coaches in college basketball are Tony Bennett, Mark Few, Archie Miller, Mike White, Wright ...

Calipari is not known for his defense. He runs a very good offensive scheme. Don't let one Final Four run by Frank Martin fool you about defense.

Bagley went to K because he could get him eligible quickly. The NCAA does not question the rat. While Duke doesn't play defense, their offense is first rate.

It's not like Duke players can't play defense. Tatum, Battier, Hill, Duantay Jones, etc. were / are known for their defense in the NBA. A one and done is not going to learn much defense in college.

Defense is not the issue with Bagley. It's his shooting. He needs to improve that part of this game. Getting pushed around at 18 years old vs. 22 year olds upper classmen happens. Markkanen couldn't rebound at Arizona and look what he's doing in the NBA.

The NBA is changing. Centers are very different nowadays. Even Kevin Durant, Al Horford, and LeMarcus Aldridge play a lot of center. Embiid , Towns, and Davis also roam the perimeter. That's why I think Markkanen can bulk up and play center. If anything, Bagley would take the quicker forward over Markannen. Markkanen would be deadly if a center defended him.

That said, Bagley had a terrible game tonight. He had a tough time dealing with Indiana's packline. He'll have even a tougher time against UVA. Even then he had 23 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists tonight. The hype train is just starting. I have Carolina and UVA friends already dreading playing Bagley. I haven't seen a first year talent like Bagley in the ACC in a while.

I don't really have doubts about his offensive game at all, the shot will get there he's already shooting 40% on mid-range shots and 30% from 3.

His defense has been a bit worse than I was expecting so far, and I hate the way Duke uses him and Wendell. Tatum is the only good defender Duke has seemed to produce in a while Jabari, Okafor and Ingram were just disasters. There really isn't many succesful stars/superstars out of Duke, which is crazy because they get almost every top recruit. Callipari consistently produces good NBA talent and USC seems to have good defensive players and more opprtunity for Bagley to show his offensive skill.

Bagley will really have to bulk up if he wants to play C in the NBA going up against guys like Embiid and Cousins, because if he's struggling to defend some of Indiana small bigs that's bad. His DBPM is lower than all the top prospects currently, maybe he can become a Cody Zeller on defense or he gets used better in the NBA and becomes more Bosh like.

Edit: Passed by Markkanen at C, now that I think about it Lauri would probably be much better at C than Bagley, but I have a feeling we will mess up terribly with the lineups and make Bagley into something he is not.

 

[Bubba88]

Huh? USC east or USC west? The best defensive coaches in college basketball are Tony Bennett, Mark Few, Archie Miller, Mike White, Wright ...

Calipari is not known for his defense. He runs a very good offensive scheme. Don't let one Final Four run by Frank Martin fool you about defense.

Bagley went to K because he could get him eligible quickly. The NCAA does not question the rat. While Duke doesn't play defense, their offense is first rate.

It's not like Duke players can't play defense. Tatum, Battier, Hill, Duantay Jones, etc. were / are known for their defense in the NBA. A one and done is not going to learn much defense in college.

Defense is not the issue with Bagley. It's his shooting. He needs to improve that part of this game. Getting pushed around at 18 years old vs. 22 year olds upper classmen happens. Markkanen couldn't rebound at Arizona and look what he's doing in the NBA.

The NBA is changing. Centers are very different nowadays. Even Kevin Durant, Al Horford, and LeMarcus Aldridge play a lot of center. Embiid , Towns, and Davis also roam the perimeter. That's why I think Markkanen can bulk up and play center. If anything, Bagley would take the quicker forward over Markannen. Markkanen would be deadly if a center defended him.

That said, Bagley had a terrible game tonight. He had a tough time dealing with Indiana's packline. He'll have even a tougher time against UVA. Even then he had 23 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists tonight. The hype train is just starting. I have Carolina and UVA friends already dreading playing Bagley. I haven't seen a first year talent like Bagley in the ACC in a while.

Lauri Needs to improve a lot to Play Center in the NBA. He can't defend other Cs and most likely won't. Bagley is a terrible fit for Lauri if he Plays C. Bagley may be the best in the NCAA and you rather take the best and worry about being a fit later when you know what you got. Bagleys D isn't good. If he Plays the 3 he'd be great offensivly creating matchup nightmares.

I still like Doncic best. What this guy is doing is really impressiv. He gets double coverage already, he'll be prepared for the NBA.

 

[Rooh]

Lauri Needs to improve a lot to Play Center in the NBA. He can't defend other Cs and most likely won't. Bagley is a terrible fit for Lauri if he Plays C. Bagley may be the best in the NCAA and you rather take the best and worry about being a fit later when you know what you got. Bagleys D isn't good. If he Plays the 3 he'd be great offensivly creating matchup nightmares.

I still like Doncic best. What this guy is doing is really impressiv. He gets double coverage already, he'll be prepared for the NBA.

Bagley can't play the 3 at all imo, I think that would be very bad unless his handles and shot improved significantly. Lauri needs to get stronger but he's not wrong the NBA has changed and Cs will be more effective being perimeter threats, Bagley is fluid and agile enough to defend perimeter 4s.

I also still like Doncic he's already experienced in P&Rs and like you said he's able to pass out of doubles, throw cross court passes with ease. This season with Madrid he has taken a significant jump in scoring and is starting to takeover games in various ways.

 

[Bubba88]

Lauri needs to get stronger but he's not wrong the NBA has changed and Cs will be more effective being perimeter threats, Bagley is fluid and agile enough to defend perimeter 4s.

and who'd Play D as Center? Who'd go up against Embid Jokic or Towns.

 

[Rooh]

and who'd Play D as Center? Who'd go up against Embid Jokic or Towns.

Markkanen, he is quick on his feet and tall enough he just needs to keep building his strength. I have seen him guard Cousins, AD and some other bigs already it's not as big of a concern as your thinking.

Lauri is a plus defender as a rookie right now, even so he was supposedly a defensive disaster in college.

Bagley may not be ready yet but his athleticism, motor and some NBA trainers could get him to being fine at center on a second thought, have to remind myself he still is a college player.

Also, Markkanen at center only hurts a player like Embiid's impact taking him out of the interior where he dominates defensively, while Bagley is able to take it inside vs whoever the PF may be.

 

[Rooh]

A good comparison for Bagley and how he projects in the NBA is John Collins, They play almost exactly the same and had around the same numbers in college, though Bagley is younger and more skilled. Collins is having a great rookie season for Atlanta right now, he's a plus player on both ends and is averaging 18/11 on good efficiency per 36.

Bagley is up to 25/12 62FG on the season not counting Mich St. game. One player is historically dominating the Euroleague, and the other has some of the highest numbers ever from a freshman in college ball..good options.

 

[piteus]

I don't really have doubts about his offensive game at all, the shot will get there he's already shooting 40% on mid-range shots and 30% from 3.

His defense has been a bit worse than I was expecting so far, and I hate the way Duke uses him and Wendell. Tatum is the only good defender Duke has seemed to produce in a while Jabari, Okafor and Ingram were just disasters. There really isn't many succesful stars/superstars out of Duke, which is crazy because they get almost every top recruit. Callipari consistently produces good NBA talent and USC seems to have good defensive players and more opprtunity for Bagley to show his offensive skill.

Bagley will really have to bulk up if he wants to play C in the NBA going up against guys like Embiid and Cousins, because if he's struggling to defend some of Indiana small bigs that's bad. His DBPM is lower than all the top prospects currently, maybe he can become a Cody Zeller on defense or he gets used better in the NBA and becomes more Bosh like.

Edit: Passed by Markkanen at C, now that I think about it Lauri would probably be much better at C than Bagley, but I have a feeling we will mess up terribly with the lineups and make Bagley into something he is not.

Every rookie has their weaknesses. With Bagley, it's his shot. If you can't shoot in today's NBA, it a massive detriment. I'm hoping he gets better at it. With Doncic, it's his foot speed and ability to finish around the rim against longer / stronger athletes. We hope that his instincts soothes this concern. With Porter, it's injuries and his core strength. Will he get strong / quick enough to be that athletic / long / skilled wing that every NBA team craves?

If Bagley can become an acceptable shooter, then he becomes unstoppable. If he doesn't, he becomes a 10 point / 12 rebound player in the NBA. That's not great for the potential #1 pick. That's the risk. While Bagley is not going to be a great on ball defender, he should be fine with a bit of effort. His foot speed and length gives him the ability to defend longer wings. No, he can't guard wings like Leonard, but he'll be fine against players like Aldridge, etc. That's why I said the Bulls need to find a extremely athletic defensive wing (3 and D) to play with Markkanen and Bagley. Offensively, they should be dominant if Bagley learns to shoot. Few team could match up with Markannen and Bagley. They will certainly eat up every rebound.

That said, Markannen and Doncic could be really fun offensively. However, I worry about them defensively. Having BOTH Markannen and Doncic at the wings would really expose the defense. Perhaps not so much if Markannen can play the stretch 5.

Markkanen and Porter could be the best pairing ... if Porter develops and isn't injury prone. It's a huge risk. Let's say the Bulls draft / sign another 6'10" athletic skilled wing. If Lauri can play a bit at the stretch 5, then that front line becomes insane. However, Porter is so uncertain ... I don't take that risk if given the other 2 options.

Don't worry too much about a one and done learning defense in college. They're not going to learn much in 5/6 months. It's more about how their physical assets translate to the NBA when they mature.

From a risk / reward perspective, Bagley has the best profile on and off the court. That does not mean he will end up being the best, but that should push him to the top of the list for most NBA teams. The hype train is rolling and for good reason. A 6'11" athletic freak with high basketball IQ is hard to pass up. There's not many around. However, his shot MUST improve. It's as simple as that.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Yeah, you can’t underestimate their love for Bama. They’ll justify it by saying only loss was against Auburn and ignore lack of quality wins.

I mean, that does make sense. If it's between them and Ohio State, the two have a similar loss (Oklahoma and Auburn), but that ass kicking against Iowa is going to hurt OSU. And it should. If you take away that loss, there is little doubt that Ohio State would be higher than Bama, because they have more quality wins. But they have two losses, and you can't just ignore a 31-point beat down by a team that is 7-5.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Yeah, that's why they need to eventually go to 6. Conference championships will be de facto playoff games regardless of team's records, with potentially 1 loser added to the field (but could be a team that didn't make it, as in Bama's case this year).

I think 8 should be the number, but there are arguments for several different numbers. Just think it should be more than 4. That also opens the door to the possibility of a non-Power 5 team getting in. But hey, 4 is still better than what we used to have, at least.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

IMO, I don't think Miami needs any help. If they beat Clemson on a neutral field they beat the #1 team in the nation. That's a better 1 loss resume than Bama. I don't think Miami is better than Bama, but they have the far better resume. Notice how a 2 loss Auburn is #2 after beating two #1 teams at HOME. Beating a #1 team is a big deal.

I agree.

I think the winners of the SEC and ACC are automatically in.

Obviously, if all four teams win, they'll be in. But the scenarios play out like this, IMO:

• Clemson/Miami
• Auburn/Georgia
• If Wisconsin or Oklahoma lose, Bama replaces the loser.
• If Wisconsin and Oklahoma lose, Bama and Ohio State replace them.

I'm not sure I see it going any other way. Only way it could become fuzzy is if Ohio State were to just roll over Wisconsin, and I'm not even sure that would be enough to put them above Bama.

 

[RayP]

I mean, that does make sense. If it's between them and Ohio State, the two have a similar loss (Oklahoma and Auburn), but that ass kicking against Iowa is going to hurt OSU. And it should. If you take away that loss, there is little doubt that Ohio State would be higher than Bama, because they have more quality wins. But they have two losses, and you can't just ignore a 31-point beat down by a team that is 7-5.

Yeah, I hear you. Same reason why Clemson has to win to get in IMO even though they're currently #1.

I agree.

I think the winners of the SEC and ACC are automatically in.

Obviously, if all four teams win, they'll be in. But the scenarios play out like this, IMO:

• Clemson/Miami
• Auburn/Georgia
• If Wisconsin or Oklahoma lose, Bama replaces the loser.
• If Wisconsin and Oklahoma lose, Bama and Ohio State replace them.

I'm not sure I see it going any other way. Only way it could become fuzzy is if Ohio State were to just roll over Wisconsin, and I'm not even sure that would be enough to put them above Bama.

That’s pretty much exactly how I see it playing out too, I think.

Hoping for Georgia and Miami to win, and for Miami to get crushed in the playoff.

 

[LDF]

Every rookie has their weaknesses. With Bagley, it's his shot. If you can't shoot in today's NBA, it a massive detriment. I'm hoping he gets better at it. With Doncic, it's his foot speed and ability to finish around the rim against longer / stronger athletes. We hope that his instincts soothes this concern. With Porter, it's injuries and his core strength. Will he get strong / quick enough to be that athletic / long / skilled wing that every NBA team craves?

If Bagley can become an acceptable shooter, then he becomes unstoppable. If he doesn't, he becomes a 10 point / 12 rebound player in the NBA. That's not great for the potential #1 pick. That's the risk. While Bagley is not going to be a great on ball defender, he should be fine with a bit of effort. His foot speed and length gives him the ability to defend longer wings. No, he can't guard wings like Leonard, but he'll be fine against players like Aldridge, etc. That's why I said the Bulls need to find a extremely athletic defensive wing (3 and D) to play with Markkanen and Bagley. Offensively, they should be dominant if Bagley learns to shoot. Few team could match up with Markannen and Bagley. They will certainly eat up every rebound.

That said, Markannen and Doncic could be really fun offensively. However, I worry about them defensively. Having BOTH Markannen and Doncic at the wings would really expose the defense. Perhaps not so much if Markannen can play the stretch 5.

Markkanen and Porter could be the best pairing ... if Porter develops and isn't injury prone. It's a huge risk. Let's say the Bulls draft / sign another 6'10" athletic skilled wing. If Lauri can play a bit at the stretch 5, then that front line becomes insane. However, Porter is so uncertain ... I don't take that risk if given the other 2 options.

Don't worry too much about a one and done learning defense in college. They're not going to learn much in 5/6 months. It's more about how their physical assets translate to the NBA when they mature.

From a risk / reward perspective, Bagley has the best profile on and off the court. That does not mean he will end up being the best, but that should push him to the top of the list for most NBA teams. The hype train is rolling and for good reason. A 6'11" athletic freak with high basketball IQ is hard to pass up. There's not many around. However, his shot MUST improve. It's as simple as that.

well i still like Bagley but Ayton pick, if the Bulls does not pick #1 ......

DeAndre Ayton | NBADraft.net

however i can see Bagley as a #4 type of a pf.

Marvin Bagley | NBADraft.net

however i see the next big as a center and will be all defense with limited offense.

Mohamed Bamba | NBADraft.net

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Yeah, I hear you. Same reason why Clemson has to win to get in IMO even though they're currently #1.



That’s pretty much exactly how I see it playing out too, I think.

Hoping for Georgia and Miami to win, and for Miami to get crushed in the playoff.

Wait, you want Miami to make it, but get crushed? I am confused! Hahah.

 

[RayP]

Wait, you want Miami to make it, but get crushed? I am confused! Hahah.

Sick of seeing Clemson, and I actually don’t mind Alabama. I don’t root for Alabama, but they don’t bother me like they do a lot of other people that hate them.

I find their run with Saban so impressive. That said, I don’t think they have it this year to actually win another title.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

I reached that point with the Vikings, would be great to see them reach the NFC 'ship and get rolled. Or lose a heartbreaker, I could go either way

 

[RayP]

I reached that point with the Vikings, would be great to see them reached the NFC 'ship and get rolled. Or lose a heartbreaker, I could go either way

Yep, exactly how I feel about Miami.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Sick of seeing Clemson, and I actually don’t mind Alabama. I don’t root for Alabama, but they don’t bother me like they do a lot of other people that hate them.

I find their run with Saban so impressive. That said, I don’t think they have it this year to actually win another title.

I'm a Bama bandwagoner, tbh. Illinois football sucks so much, and as a linebacker myself, I've always just loved their defense. But yeah, I agree this team isn't what it normally is. That said, they have had a ton of injuries, especially at the LB position. Would be interesting to see how they do with a month off and time to get people healthy.

That said, I don't see any reason to hate Clemson. The fact that they're in this spot again after losing Watson is incredible. And Dabo is a really good guy. I understand not wanting to see the same teams, but then I would think you'd dislike Bama as well, so consider me confused

As much as I hate to say it, I do think it'd be cool to see a 4 of Miami, Oklahoma, Auburn/Georgia, and Wisconsin. That's a change from the norm, and a refreshing twist to it. Plus, I have no idea who would win that (though I'd put Auburn and Oklahoma as favorites), and we wouldn't just be waiting for the ultimate Bama/Clemson match-up.