Oscar Klefbom

[The Nuge]

I always preferred Klefbom over Marincin but it's sad to see that Marincin is where he is right now. I really liked him here and he could definitely have been a legit top4 d-man if he just worked hard for it. Doesn't seem he had the work ethic to do so however and that's probably what seperated him and Klef. I don't know, it's just sad. I like Marincin but it looks like he is destined for Europe at this rate. Too bad.

Ya, just look at Marincin's weight. He wasn't able to add any significant muscle over a 5 year span. Klefbom put on over 20 lbs, and Nurse has put on over 30. Clearly there's a motivation issue, which is probably why scouts were supposedly down on him. Marincin had all the skills to be a top 4 dman, but that can only take you so far

 

[Homesick]

Ya, just look at Marincin's weight. He wasn't able to add any significant muscle over a 5 year span. Klefbom put on over 20 lbs, and Nurse has put on over 30. Clearly there's a motivation issue, which is probably why scouts were supposedly down on him. Marincin had all the skills to be a top 4 dman, but that can only take you so far

Marincin did get up to 205 now which is still scrawny for a guy thats 6'4 but its better than 185 as an Oiler

 

[Stoneman89]

I always preferred Klefbom over Marincin but it's sad to see that Marincin is where he is right now. I really liked him here and he could definitely have been a legit top4 d-man if he just worked hard for it. Doesn't seem he had the work ethic to do so however and that's probably what seperated him and Klef. I don't know, it's just sad. I like Marincin but it looks like he is destined for Europe at this rate. Too bad.

Marincin's main issue was his complete lack of focus and unwillingness to engage the enemy. Way too passive, and if you're not an incredible puck mover and skater, that will get you a ticket out. Not surprised at his present situation at all. Glad we cut bait when we did.

 

[Aerchon]

Marincin's main issue was his complete lack of focus and unwillingness to engage the enemy. Way too passive, and if you're not an incredible puck mover and skater, that will get you a ticket out. Not surprised at his present situation at all. Glad we cut bait when we did.

Statement like this makes me wonder if you have ever seen Marincin play while he was here.

He was easily one of our best skating D men and it was certainly on the elite side. He was a fantastic puck mover, sublime passer.

His weaknesses were a lack of point shot and obviously not dangerous enough offensively. Plus he used his incredible stick work /reach in some situations where he just needed to be more physical.

Despite his lack of offense and physicality he was one of, if not the best we had at shutting down the opponents best. Always was tasked with the hardest match ups and zone starts and was easily one of our best for goals against per 60 in 5v5 situations.

Saying Marincin's skating and puck moving is not up to par is like saying the same about Yaks compete level and how slow he shoots.

 

[SK13]

I would suggest that calling Martin Marincin's ability to move pucks "sublime" is reaching at best. The Oilers haven't had one of those since Ryan Whitney was healthy.

Certainly Klefbom is far better at promoting puck movement and offense, and that's why he has more points in 20 games this year than Marincin has in 100 career games.

 

[Aerchon]

I would suggest that calling Martin Marincin's ability to move pucks "sublime" is reaching at best. The Oilers haven't had one of those since Ryan Whitney was healthy.

Certainly Klefbom is far better at promoting puck movement and offense, and that's why he has more points in 20 games this year than Marincin has in 100 career games.

While I would certainly say Whitney was the better puck mover that isn't to say Marincin was not great as well. Points are not what define a puck mover although they certainly help.

Klefbom has had all the offensive zone starts and plays regularly with Hall, Eberle, rnh, Mcdavid, Leon... Etc.

Marincin pre nhl was very well known for his puck moving and ability to quarterback the PP. He was just never ever used in that way here in Edmonton. His linemates were Gordon, Hendricks, Petry, Fayne, Petrel, Klinkhammer, Gazdic, Joensuu... You get the picture.

You can't compare apples to oranges, as they say. Who knows how good Marincin would have looked if he had Klefboms Pp time, zone starts, and line mates.

A lot of people don't follow those things and so are oblivious to how good Marincin was for us.

I hope he gets his **** together. He was certainly not put into a position to succeed here and like many I now question his mental fortitude.

 

[oilz89*]

I'm a huge Marincin fan, I think in a parallel universe he could still be the better d-man. He is seeing some ice in Toronto so while Klefbom has been killing it the jury still isn't 100% finished deliberating! (Besides, Marincin is the clear underdog in this scenario based on draft #

The real question is who would you prefer, Marincin or Gryba? I have my answer... I think McLellan would have been good for Marincin.

Marincin is softer and weaker then the stuff found inside a pillow...

 

[SK13]

While I would certainly say Whitney was the better puck mover that isn't to say Marincin was not great as well. Points are not what define a puck mover although they certainly help.

Klefbom has had all the offensive zone starts and plays regularly with Hall, Eberle, rnh, Mcdavid, Leon... Etc.

Marincin pre nhl was very well known for his puck moving and ability to quarterback the PP. He was just never ever used in that way here in Edmonton. His linemates were Gordon, Hendricks, Petry, Fayne, Petrel, Klinkhammer, Gazdic, Joensuu... You get the picture.

Martin Marincin's most common forwards in Edmonton were Jordan Eberle (375 ES minutes), Ryan Nugent-Hopkins (344 ES minutes), Taylor Hall (322 ES minutes). Nail Yakupov, Sam Gagner, David Perron, Matt Hendricks, Boyd Gordon are up there as well but he played a healthy majority of his time behind the Oilers top-6 and most commonly behind the Oilers top line.

Virtually every player produced LESS with him than they did without him:

Eberle w/ Marincin: 2.4 GF/60
Eberle w/o Marincin: 2.6 GF/60

RNH w/ Marincin: 2.27 GF/60
RNH w/o Marincin: 2.66 GF/60

Hall w/ Marincin: 2.20 GF/60
Hall w/o Marincin: 3.01 GF/60

The only forward who is more productive with Marincin than without, in over 150 ES minutes, was Yakupov.

You can't compare apples to oranges, as they say. Who knows how good Marincin would have looked if he had Klefboms Pp time, zone starts, and line mates.

A lot of people don't follow those things and so are oblivious to how good Marincin was for us.

I hope he gets his **** together. He was certainly not put into a position to succeed here and like many I now question his mental fortitude.

How was he not "put in the right position to succeed"? He consistently played with the Oilers best defenseman. He played with the Oilers top players. He played 19-20 minutes a game in a heavy defensive role.

If you mean he wasn't given the Oilers offensive opportunties, I'd argue it's because your perspective of his abilities were not echoed by four different NHL coaches. The reason Klefbom gets that opportunity is because he's the more talented offensive player.

I'm not sure Marincin's junior offense has ever translated to the pro level. His one good offensive season in pro hockey came during the 12-13 lockout, where the Barons had Hall, Eberle and Schulz threatening AHL records.

 

[Aerchon]

Martin Marincin's most common forwards in Edmonton were Jordan Eberle (375 ES minutes), Ryan Nugent-Hopkins (344 ES minutes), Taylor Hall (322 ES minutes). Nail Yakupov, Sam Gagner, David Perron, Matt Hendricks, Boyd Gordon are up there as well but he played a healthy majority of his time behind the Oilers top-6 and most commonly behind the Oilers top line.

Virtually every player produced LESS with him than they did without him:

Eberle w/ Marincin: 2.4 GF/60
Eberle w/o Marincin: 2.6 GF/60

RNH w/ Marincin: 2.27 GF/60
RNH w/o Marincin: 2.66 GF/60

Hall w/ Marincin: 2.20 GF/60
Hall w/o Marincin: 3.01 GF/60

The only forward who is more productive with Marincin than without, in over 150 ES minutes, was Yakupov.



How was he not "put in the right position to succeed"? He consistently played with the Oilers best defenseman. He played with the Oilers top players. He played 19-20 minutes a game in a heavy defensive role.

If you mean he wasn't given the Oilers offensive opportunties, I'd argue it's because your perspective of his abilities were not echoed by four different NHL coaches. The reason Klefbom gets that opportunity is because he's the more talented offensive player.

I'm not sure Marincin's junior offense has ever translated to the pro level. His one good offensive season in pro hockey came during the 12-13 lockout, where the Barons had Hall, Eberle and Schulz threatening AHL records.

Sigh

there is always someone that goes out and cherry picks a bunch of stats to try to show things their way.

No mention of the raito of the time Klefbom played with those players as opposed to Marincin.

Common sense say Ebs, Hall, and RNH all play at least 150% more than those playing heavy d zone minutes. Gordon plays 13 minutes a night RNH 21. Since Marincin played around what 17-20ish its safe to assume he going to get time with those others.

But proportionally Marincin played with Gordon/the heavy d zone guys more in a defensive role BY A LANDSLIDE in comparison to Klefbom.

 

[McYoungGuns]

Sigh

there is always someone that goes out and cherry picks a bunch of stats to try to show things their way.

No mention of the raito of the time Klefbom played with those players as opposed to Marincin.

Common sense say Ebs, Hall, and RNH all play at least 150% more than those playing heavy d zone minutes. Gordon plays 13 minutes a night RNH 21. Since Marincin played around what 17-20ish its safe to assume he going to get time with those others.

But proportionally Marincin played with Gordon/the heavy d zone guys more in a defensive role BY A LANDSLIDE in comparison to Klefbom.

are the Toronto maple leafs holding him back too ?

 

[nabob]

Martin Marincin's most common forwards in Edmonton were Jordan Eberle (375 ES minutes), Ryan Nugent-Hopkins (344 ES minutes), Taylor Hall (322 ES minutes). Nail Yakupov, Sam Gagner, David Perron, Matt Hendricks, Boyd Gordon are up there as well but he played a healthy majority of his time behind the Oilers top-6 and most commonly behind the Oilers top line.

Virtually every player produced LESS with him than they did without him:

Eberle w/ Marincin: 2.4 GF/60
Eberle w/o Marincin: 2.6 GF/60

RNH w/ Marincin: 2.27 GF/60
RNH w/o Marincin: 2.66 GF/60

Hall w/ Marincin: 2.20 GF/60
Hall w/o Marincin: 3.01 GF/60

The only forward who is more productive with Marincin than without, in over 150 ES minutes, was Yakupov.



How was he not "put in the right position to succeed"? He consistently played with the Oilers best defenseman. He played with the Oilers top players. He played 19-20 minutes a game in a heavy defensive role.

If you mean he wasn't given the Oilers offensive opportunties, I'd argue it's because your perspective of his abilities were not echoed by four different NHL coaches. The reason Klefbom gets that opportunity is because he's the more talented offensive player.

I'm not sure Marincin's junior offense has ever translated to the pro level. His one good offensive season in pro hockey came during the 12-13 lockout, where the Barons had Hall, Eberle and Schulz threatening AHL records.

This pretty much says it all. He was given an amazing chance 2 seasons in a row to stick on the worst D corps in the league and couldnt. Then he was barely good enough to play on the AHL team. He had it easy in junior because of his size advantage but stopped progressing as soon as he had to play against peers of equal talent and size.

 

[McYoungGuns]

This pretty much says it all. He was given an amazing chance 2 seasons in a row to stick on the worst D corps in the league and couldnt. Then he was barely good enough to play on the AHL team. He had it easy in junior because of his size advantage but stopped progressing as soon as he had to play against peers of equal talent and size.

I think his biggest issue was his size, instead of helping him it forced him to change what made him successful in the Jrs, if he was a 6 foot defender that focused on just being a mobile d man .... i think he could be a solid 4,5 or 6

 

[CupofOil]

I always preferred Klefbom over Marincin but it's sad to see that Marincin is where he is right now. I really liked him here and he could definitely have been a legit top4 d-man if he just worked hard for it. Doesn't seem he had the work ethic to do so however and that's probably what seperated him and Klef. I don't know, it's just sad. I like Marincin but it looks like he is destined for Europe at this rate. Too bad.

It's not sad at all. He just doesn't want it enough. I don't feel any sympathy for a player who has the tools but lacks the work ethic to utilize those tools, Martin has only Martin to blame. He's still young enough though so I wouldn't write him off just yet.

With that said, I was part of the minority who was fighting on the Klefbom side of the Klefbom vs. Marincin battle when Klefbom couldn't stay healthy in the AHL while Marincin was performing well in the NHL.

Then again, nobody should be declaring victory until we see Klefbom do this consistently for a couple of seasons. We've been fooled before by early Dman success.

 

[oilz89*]

Sigh

there is always someone that goes out and cherry picks a bunch of stats to try to show things their way.

No mention of the raito of the time Klefbom played with those players as opposed to Marincin.

Common sense say Ebs, Hall, and RNH all play at least 150% more than those playing heavy d zone minutes. Gordon plays 13 minutes a night RNH 21. Since Marincin played around what 17-20ish its safe to assume he going to get time with those others.

But proportionally Marincin played with Gordon/the heavy d zone guys more in a defensive role BY A LANDSLIDE in comparison to Klefbom.

wow ok.. its astounding that you're even comparing these players Marincin had his chance and blew it. He's being terrible with the leafs so in what way shape or form is he being held back? The difference in skill between Klefbom and Marincin is 100-1

 

[nabob]

wow ok.. its astounding that you're even comparing these players Marincin had his chance and blew it. He's being terrible with the leafs so in what way shape or form is he being held back? The difference in skill between Klefbom and Marincin is 100-1

Skill wise its probably closer than you think. Difference is that Klefbom thinks the game incredibly well, and has a huge amount of heart. Marty...not so much.

 

[oilz89*]

Skill wise its probably closer than you think. Difference is that Klefbom thinks the game incredibly well, and has a huge amount of heart. Marty...not so much.

Agreed. Marty had his chance and he blew it. He's not being good with the leafs either. He's being outplayed by Frankie friggin Corrado

 

[Fourier]

Sigh

there is always someone that goes out and cherry picks a bunch of stats to try to show things their way.

No mention of the raito of the time Klefbom played with those players as opposed to Marincin.

Common sense say Ebs, Hall, and RNH all play at least 150% more than those playing heavy d zone minutes. Gordon plays 13 minutes a night RNH 21. Since Marincin played around what 17-20ish its safe to assume he going to get time with those others.

But proportionally Marincin played with Gordon/the heavy d zone guys more in a defensive role BY A LANDSLIDE in comparison to Klefbom.

Over his two principle years with the Oilers Marincin played 1357 ES minutes and of that he played 280 minutes with Gordon or roughly 20% of the time. Klefbom played 1127 minutes ES last year and of that he played 146 minutes with Gordon. That's 13% of the time. However, Gordon was actually hurt for a fair bit of the time Klefbom was in the line-up last year roughly 14 games. If you add in minutes with Lander it's actually pretty even in terms of the %-age of time each played with the team's checking center. But both players actually got primarily offensively oriented linemates so I don't see much cherry picking here at all.

 

[SK13]

I'm not sure how it could be cherry picking when I went over literally every ES minute Marincin played for the Oilers. That's kind of the opposite of cherry picking. Especially when I wasn't actually making a direct comparison to Klefbom or even suggesting Klefbom hasn't had better offensive chances. He's had better offensive chances because he's the better offensive player and the team is better off with him in those situations.

All I was pointing out was that Marty played with offensive players in the top-six far more than he played with fourth liners or checking line players. Which is a fact.

 

[Burnt Biscuits]

Marincin is softer and weaker then the stuff found inside a pillow...

I don't think that is fair or true, the biggest knock that can be laid at Marincin's feet is he isn't fully committed to being an NHL player, on two separate occasions the organization accused him of being out of shape and while I can't say he was playing horrible when he was in the AHL, he clearly gave below his best effort on a number of occasions. He wasn't playing an inspired brand of hockey that you see from passionate players who get sent down and immediately want to be called back up.

In terms of being weak I can't say there were many times I seen Marincin getting bullied out there or shoved right off pucks except for the very biggest and baddest, he was more often victimized by not being mentally sharp enough and having himself pickpocketed behind the net or along the wall cause he was a little too slow making a play. In terms of being soft he wasn't bailing on shot blocks or hits, he was physically engaged in the play, he didn't play smash mouth hockey mind you, but he was noticeably more physical than say Justin Schultz who is more deserving of the title of being called a pillowy soft player.

Like many former players this reeks of revisionist history no one was saying these things about him when he was here, but now that he is gone and isn't succeeding to a huge degree in Toronto it is time to take a proverbial dump on a former player.

 

[Oilfan2]

Marincin sucked while he was here, except for a brief stint one year by where he looked like an NHL player. His fault..no one else.

He still sucks now.

Shades of blind love...aka...Rob Schremp....

 

[nabob]

Sigh

But proportionally Marincin played with Gordon/the heavy d zone guys more in a defensive role BY A LANDSLIDE in comparison to Klefbom.

Over his two principle years with the Oilers Marincin played 1357 ES minutes and of that he played 280 minutes with Gordon or roughly 20% of the time. Klefbom played 1127 minutes ES last year and of that he played 146 minutes with Gordon. That's 13% of the time. However, Gordon was actually hurt for a fair bit of the time Klefbom was in the line-up last year roughly 14 games. If you add in minutes with Lander it's actually pretty even in terms of the %-age of time each played with the team's checking center. But both players actually got primarily offensively oriented linemates so I don't see much cherry picking here at all.

LANDSLIDE

I took my love, I took it down
Climbed a mountain and I turned around
And I saw my reflection in the snow covered hills
'Til the landslide brought it down
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changin' ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?
?

Well, I've been afraid of changin'
'Cause I've built my life around you
But time makes you bolder
Even children get older
And I'm getting older too
And I'm getting older too
Oh, take my love, take it down
Climb a mountain and turn around

And if you see my reflection in the snow covered hills
Well the landslide will bring it down
And if you see my reflection in the snow covered hills
Well the landslide will bring it down
The landslide will bring it down


Back on topic, One thing thats really nice is to see Klefbom staying healthy (knock on wood) I think he has all the tools to be a Seabrook type player. Would like to see him take the body a little more but he is so good at subtlety separating the opposition from the puck that he doesnt need to.

 

[Dorian2]

Meh. I was never big on Marincin like some posters here were. Klefbom's the better D. Everything is is semantics.

 

[Samus44]

Over his two principle years with the Oilers Marincin played 1357 ES minutes and of that he played 280 minutes with Gordon or roughly 20% of the time. Klefbom played 1127 minutes ES last year and of that he played 146 minutes with Gordon. That's 13% of the time. However, Gordon was actually hurt for a fair bit of the time Klefbom was in the line-up last year roughly 14 games. If you add in minutes with Lander it's actually pretty even in terms of the %-age of time each played with the team's checking center. But both players actually got primarily offensively oriented linemates so I don't see much cherry picking here at all.

I would strongly suggest that Marincin did in fact face much stiffer competition than Klefbom, there were many nights he was hardmatched against other teams top lines with Fayne while Klefbom played with Schultz. This would almost certainly explain why others scored less with Marincin.

Edit: http://www.coppernblue.com/2015/6/12/8765883/martin-marincin . AS you can see in the player usage chart included in the link Marincin faced a much more difficult zone start and his competition was a bit stiffer, however we also see Klefbom did a fair bit better in his minutes. In terms of advanced stats it would be hard to conclude last season that Marincin was soundly outplayed by Klefbom given his more difficult assignments, however it would be just as difficult to conclude the opposite as well. Klefbom obviously has the more robust and projectable skillset but i do think given better development Marincin had plenty of skills that could carry him to an NHL career, i think Z.Michalek is a guy he could become like given proper development.

When i think of Marincin i think of a player we ruined, try to teach a fish how to climb a tree and he's going to spend his life thinking he's stupid. I think they pigeon holed Marincin into the idea he should be much more physical because of his size when he did the Lidstrom style good stick, excellent skating thing very well. Some players just end up confused and uncertain about their skills when they're forced to make radical changes overnight. Marincin was doing well and the Oilers had to make sure to knock him down a peg because they felt slighted by the fact he wasn't doing exactly what they wanted him to do development wise as quickly as they liked. Marincin still obviously never made good on all his promise here but i still feel his skillset was undervalued here and they screwed with his development.

 

[Fourier]

I would strongly suggest that Marincin did in fact face much stiffer competition than Klefbom, there were many nights he was hardmatched against other teams top lines with Fayne while Klefbom played with Schultz. This would almost certainly explain why others scored less with Marincin.

When i think of Marincin i think of a player we ruined, try to teach a fish how to climb a tree and he's going to spend his life thinking he's stupid. I think they pigeon holed Marincin into the idea he should be much more physical because of his size when he did the Lidstrom style good stick, excellent skating thing very well. Some players just end up confused and uncertain about their skills when they're forced to make radical changes overnight. Marincin was doing well and the Oilers had to make sure to knock him down a peg because they felt slighted by the fact he wasn't doing exactly what they wanted him to do development wise as quickly as they liked. Marincin still obviously never made good on all his promise here but i still feel his skillset was undervalued here and they screwed with his development.

That was not the point of the post though. It was in response to a claim that Marincin played a far greater %-age of his time with Gordon and with third liners than did Klefbom.

It terms of opposition they played against, we have already covered his a while back starting with post 347 in this thread.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=106578041&highlight=marincin#post106578041

The reality is that if you look at who the two actually played against their is not much evidence to suggest that Marincin was consistently being given the tougher opposition nor lesser team mates.

For the record I put little stock in the various corsi based QOC numbers. For me they are about the worst of the advanced stats for actually reflecting what they are purported to measure. They have can be far too easily skewed as I have on several occasion pointed out with specific examples. That's why I prefer to look at who the players are actually on the ice against and make my decisions based on that data. (See an earlier post below for why I don't like the typical QoC calculations

Now I did not look at zone starts and it does not not surprise me that Klefbom had a higher offensive zone start %-age last year at 58% vs 44%. But in the previous year it was 45.5% vs 35.1% in Marincin's favour. That said this is not going to account for the big discrepancy in their offensive numbers.

And again for the record, I like Marincin. I am the last person who will argue that the Oilers got the most out of him that they could. But I also think that the case that Aerchon continues to try and make...that Marincin was the better prospect over Klefbom ... is a huge stretch.

It is amazing to me that people hang their hat on QoC when it is actually very easy to simply look at who a player is on the ice against. Of all the advanced stats out there QoC seems to me to be one of the least likely to accurately reflect what it is suppose to say about an individual.

For example Shea Weber was 700th in CorsiRel last year. So it would seem that as far as quality of competition goes if a forward had to face Shea Weber a lot it would actually huirt his QoC a fair bit. In contrast if that same forward saw a lot of Matt Hunwick his QoC would rise since Hunwick has one of the best CorsiRel's out there. Of course you would have had an even better advantage playing against both Weber and Josi since Josi's CorsiRel was worse than Weber's.

And for a defenseman, it would seem that a tough assignment last year would have been facing Sam Gagner since Sammy was 27th in the NHL in CorsiRel amongst skaters with 50+ games played. In contrast, Tyler Johnson is ranked much lower so if you played against him you are getting a break it seems. In fact, since the stat is weighted by time you would have to play against Johnson for 2 minutes to compensate for every minute vs Gagner.

Indeed the weighting means that if you play against an outlier (either + or -) it can impact your score a fair bit. Roughly speaking 1 minute against Mark Alt is essentially the equivalent to 45 minutes vs Ryan Getzlaf in terms of difficulty of assignment. And if you played a minute against Colin Fraser you would have to play 43 minutes against Geztlaf just to neutralize the impact of Fraser on your QoC. More sprecisely, for this calculation these two assignments are essentially equal.

Player 1) 1 minute vs Colin Fraser and 43 minutes vs Ryan Getzlaf

Player 2) 44 minutes vs Rob Klinkhammer.

 

[s7ark]

This thread is about Klefbom. Marincin talk after this post will be deleted.