Minar
Registered User
- Aug 27, 2018
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I would consider Lemieux and Gretzky to be pretty much equal in 1989 1990 and 1991.Lemisux. By 1989, he was better than Gretzky, and would have been the best in the world until 2002.
I would consider Lemieux and Gretzky to be pretty much equal in 1989 1990 and 1991.Lemisux. By 1989, he was better than Gretzky, and would have been the best in the world until 2002.
In the back problem Lemieux world, in the magic fantasy one , we can easily Lemieux 90 and 91 season to be very similar to 89 and 93 I think ?I would consider Lemieux and Gretzky to be pretty much equal in 1989 1990 and 1991.
I mean, we didnt see Orr age, but we got what you could call a glimpse into it at the 76 Canada Cup. 1 year removed from being able to stay on the ice and with 2 shot knees he put up 9 in 7 winning MVP against the World's best.
Aging is really just adjusting to losing your physical gifts and that is at least evidence that he could've excelled at it
I think it is thinking that there is an above 50% chance without back issue he score more like in 1989 or 1993 than he did in 90-91-92, looking at what he was able to do playoff time when he fought through them.Why... are people assuming Lemieux would win the 1991 Art Ross, and some others besides?
I would consider Lemieux and Gretzky to be pretty much equal in 1989 1990 and 1991.
Bobby Orr healthy for 20 should be a slam dunk. I mean you can't go wrong here with Mario either but Orr was just insane offensively and defensively from what I've read. Mario as great as he was offensively never played defensively that I recall. Two talents that we were robbed of way to early regardless. Can't even fathom the numbers both would have put up.
No, it was not.By 1990, it was becoming clear the Lemieux had eclipsed Gretzky.
Why... are people assuming Lemieux would win the 1991 Art Ross, and some others besides?
As it is, Lemieux would have been hard-pressed to win the 1990 scoring race if he'd been playing and Gretzky non-injured near the end of the year.
I honestly don't see Lemieux beating Jagr, if they'd played together, from 1998-99 onward (if they're on the same team), and maybe not in 1997-98 either.
I don;t think you understand the point of the thread. It's about what a healthy Lemieux and Orr could have done. It's hypothetical.I get that a healthy Mario probably (not for sure) wins the 1990 Art Ross and almost certainly the 1994 Art Ross, and then we can guess the 1995 one, too (though a lot of high-scoring players had huge drops that year). But you can go too far with this "healthy" thing. Being healthy is good for completed seasons and thus one-season scoring totals, but it also means the player acquires huge mileage, fatigue, and more wear & tear as the career goes on.
No, it was not.
1989-90 scoring race after October
26 PTS - Gretzky
20 PTS - Lemieux
1989-90 scoring race after November
52 PTS - Gretzky
47 PTS - Lemieux
1989-90 scoring race after December
80 - Gretzky
76 - Lemieux
1989-90 scoring race after January
103 - Lemieux
101 - Gretzky
...and yet in spite of everything you claim in your post, Lemieux still had the superior numbers, when it came to PPG. In other words, Lemieux would ahve once again won the Art Ross trophy for the third year in a row, had he not been injured.They're basically even at this point. In late January, Gretzky went into a post-All Star game slump after his buddy (Nicholls) was traded, and Mario went on a bit of a heater, but of course the latter was injured and missed most of the remaining games.
Gretzky himself got injured on March 22nd before the end of the season, but just prior to that he'd been on a heater himself (from Feb. 14th to March 17th 1990, Wayne had 34 points in 15 games... then, he got back-crunched and missed the last 7.5 games).
Gretzky was also at his best all through 1990-91, scoring at the same pace as Lemieux in 1989-90, and higher than Lemieux's pace in 1990-91 and 1991-92.
Okay, I'll leave it there as I think I've made my point...
Okay, I'll leave it there as I think I've made my point...
For sure an impressive showing by Orr to do that after all he had been through... but he was 28. A 7 game sample size at 28 doesn't tell us anything about how he would age in his 30's.I mean, we didnt see Orr age, but we got what you could call a glimpse into it at the 76 Canada Cup. 1 year removed from being able to stay on the ice and with 2 shot knees he put up 9 in 7 winning MVP against the World's best.
It's because Panther still continues to operate on this incredulous belief that Lemieux wasn't actually playing hurt during that time period but rather, he was just going through "a slump".I don't think you have, and I frankly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Mario lemieux was injured during the 89-90 and 90-91 seasons. This thread is about the hypothetical situation where he plays healthy.
They're basically even at this point. In late January, Gretzky went into a post-All Star game slump after his buddy (Nicholls) was traded
In anything longer than a single season Gretzky was never ahead of Lemieux after 1987;I would consider Lemieux and Gretzky to be pretty much equal in 1989 1990 and 1991.
As for 1998, 99, 2000, 2001 & 2002....hard to say how much ageing Lemieux does vs Peak Jagr. Could he beat him out every year? Some years?
I'd say at the least - if we change nothing to Jagr - Lemieux can probably beat Jagr out in 1998 (lower total) and 2000 (63 games).
1999 & 2001 are up for debate who wins. Let's give those to Jagr.
2002 - Lemieux definitely has it in him to beat out Iginla and 96 points. He might be 36 then, but if he was healthy he'd still win it in a lowering scoring year for forwards.
For the life of me, I do not comprehend why anyone would think Jagr beats out a healthy Lemieux in any year prior to 2003-04 when Lemieux was turning 38. For starters, Jagr never finished ahead of Lemieux in the 90s, when Lemieux was relatively health or played over 60 games. This occurred in 1991,92,93,96, and 97. With the exception of 2003-04, when Lemieux only played 10 games, and again in 2005-06, when Lemieux was 40, and forced to retire, why would anyone think Jagr would beat a healthy Lemieux in scoring?
Lemieux finished with superior PPG totals from 1990-2003. A 35 year old Mario Lemieux rejuvenated the 2000-01 Penguins, and led them to the Conference Final, and was easily the best player on the team. Lemieux would also ahve better PPG in 2001-02, and outright beat Jagr in points during the 2002-03 season, in spite of playing on a horrible Penguins team. Yet people here actually are delusional enough to think Jagr would have put up more points during some of Lemieux's three seasons he was in retirement in his early 30s?
Can someone explain the logic of this thought process.
Slight correction: Lemieux came out of retirement and dominated... for 43 games.We know how Lemieux aged, he came out of retirement at an age when most players are well past their prime and dominated the league but we have no idea how Orr would have aged.
You spent a lot of time here making some fancy graphs that aren't going to convince anyone of what we already know.In anything longer than a single season Gretzky was never ahead of Lemieux after 1987;
Slight correction: Lemieux came out of retirement and dominated... for 43 games.
You spent a lot of time here making some fancy graphs that aren't going to convince anyone of what we already know.
1987-88: Gretzky was clearly better
1988-89: Lemieux was clearly better (albeit via power play opportunities and PP points)
1989-90: They're even
1990-91: Gretzky was better
These are my opinions, and they're supported by tons of stats and facts I've posted elsewhere and won't do so again (to relieve everyone of the burden).
While we're at it, I also firmly believe that Jagr was about to surpass Lemieux in production either in 1997-98 or (certainly) 1998-99. As it is, in 1995-96 Jagr was already an ES point producer superior to Lemieux. In 1996-97, he matched Lemieux is ES points again and was a better goal scorer per game than Lemieux.
And again, good health doesn't mean your body doesn't get worn down. There's a toll paid on the body by being healthy and playing game after game, year after year, and not sitting out back-to-backs.
Lemieux healthy in the late 90s isn't the same Lemieux who scored 160 points in 60 games in 93, or 199 points in 1989. It's an older Lemieux, with a lot more mileage on his body who is starting to slow down.
Even in 2001 - yes Lemieux was amazing, but Jagr did outpoint him they played together.
You bringing up 2002 or 2003 for Jagr doesn't really do much since these were bad, down years for him. Jagr from 1995 to 2001 was at his peak.
It's possible Lemieux beats him out in points every year - but it's also extremely probable Jagr beats him out a couple of times.
It's not THAT clear-cutBobby Orr healthy for 20 should be a slam dunk. I mean you can't go wrong here with Mario either but Orr was just insane offensively and defensively from what I've read. Mario as great as he was offensively never played defensively that I recall. Two talents that we were robbed of way to early regardless. Can't even fathom the numbers both would have put up.
A 35 year old Mario Lemieux rejuvenated the 2000-01 Penguins, and led them to the Conference Final, and was easily the best player on the team.
But you get the idea, would they have played all their games together that year that 40 game sample could have been representative to what would have happened, it is not crazy to think so.The bottom line is Lemieux decisively had a better output per game than Jagr. All you are doing at this point, is cherry-picking stats.
Jagr did have a great peak from 1994-2001, and it was magical. However, Jagr was noticeably behind Gretzky, and Lemieux. In fact, one can make the argument that Esposito (1968-75), Howe (1950-63), Lafleur (1974-80), Dionne (1974-85), Bossy (1978-86), Orr (1969-75), Mikita (1963-69), and now McDavid (2016-P) all had as good or even better peaks.Jagr is....among the greatest peaks in hockey history.
More cherry-picking by the pro Jagr contingent.During the regular season, Penguins scorer
Jagr: 33 goals, 85 pts in 46 games, +15
Lemieux: 35 goals, 76 pts in 43 games, +15
Playoff:
Jagr: 12 pts in 16 games, +4
Lemieux: 17 pts in 18 games, +4
Jagr in that era.... motivated playing with Lemieux, easy to imagine him winning the Ross.
Capitals Jagr does not beat Lemieux, he did not get close to, have to cleanly outscore Mats Sundin and Whitney first.
But you get the idea, would they have played all their games together that year that 40 game sample could have been representative to what would have happened, it is not crazy to think so.
It is all the games played in the Mario returned league, you also start to count at the same time when you look at Mario.More cherry-picking by the pro Jagr contingent.