OT: Olympics Talk

[MinJaBen]

It will also hurt the American/Canadian boy who doesn't get to dress the national jersey because of some Russkie brat and the politics.

It's not for nothing why they ask to keep the politics and sports separated even though they never will. You gotta try.

I’m for keeping sports and politics separate, but the whole reason the ROC is a thing, and their original cheating was a thing, was because their country was using sports success for politics. And cheating to do so. So those horses are already out of the barn.

 

[geehaad]

It will also hurt the American/Canadian boy who doesn't get to dress the national jersey because of some Russkie brat

No, the brat will play for China.

 

[Chrispy]

It will also hurt the American/Canadian boy who doesn't get to dress the national jersey because of some Russkie brat and the politics.

It's not for nothing why they ask to keep the politics and sports separated even though they never will. You gotta try.

As long as athletes represent countries there will be a mix of politics and sports.

To truly separate you would have to individualize the Olympics and eliminate most team events, and also eliminate the World Cup. It can’t be done by definition.

 

[Derailed75]

You want to talk about punishing a large group for the actions of a few?

The few would be Putin and his oligarchs.

The many would be the Ukrainians who have been fighting a war against him for 7 years that may be about to get way f***ing worse.

Well than we should make all the 15 year old figure skaters go home and tell them that can't play

 

[Derailed75]

If Russia invades Ukraine and the world gets its war on, I personally will care about hockey, all hockey, a lot less.

The world is not going to war. Countries get invaded and pushed around by other countries all the time. Theres some posturing that will happen, lots if words, and things will calm down.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

How does a 15 year old accidentally on her own take PEDs? Either she was deliberately given them, or she was put in a position where it was possible to take them accidentally.

But honestly, Russia has 100k troops ready to roll into Ukraine. Get it over with, and then get them all out of the f***ing Olympics.

It's not black and white at all. Pretty common for elite athletes to be given substances that are banned by their trainers/doctors unintentionally because it's so complex and there is an incredible amount of due diligence needed... Yes someone very likely screwed up. Doesn't mean this is some big widespread doping scheme or they intentionally drugged her. All of these elite athletes are getting so many damn supplements, vitamins, legal/allowed drugs, etc. that it's really not that hard to accidentally slip up somewhere there. Fireable offense for whoever screwed up as it's their job to get it right, sure.

Also, there's a ton of questionable/suspicious things going on in this case... The drug she tested positive for really isn't even performance enhancing for her in larger amounts let alone the trace amounts that were found. Trace amounts of it can come from other drugs that are allowed. Plus she's by far the best in her sport and certainly wouldn't need any performance enhancements, why in the world would they risk it knowing how under the microscope all Russian athletes are since 2014? The facts don't really add up to this being more Russian organized doping schemes. The positive test also came from a sample that was taken literally 2+ months ago and having nothing to do with the Olympics, and it wasn't even reviewed until coincidentally the day after she won an Olympic Gold medal. Really...? Samples I believe need to be tested in a certain timeframe and not sit for months like that. All her tests in this Olympics have been negative and clean, as have all of her teammates' tests.

I'm not making any definitive statements here, just there's a lot of questions and I'm not a fan of all the assumptions as I said before. Let the investigation play out and let the governing bodies review the case. We should know a bit more in the next few days but the US media and other larger media outlets around the world are incredibly anti-Russian and biased and are doing a disservice to the games as a whole with their ridiculous reporting here. Suggesting all Russian athletes be banned from competing because of a one-off questionable positive test? Come on.

And note, I'm not trying to defend them here, if the positive test is legit I absolutely believe they need to be stripped of that gold medal and Valieva needs to be suspended and removed from the games, absolutely sucks for her as it's not her fault at all, but even in the likelihood that it was accidental that does not excuse it and it's not fair to the other competitors. But it should end there. Russians already heavily scrutinized and tested like crazy, the media trying to put into question all other Russian athletes this year is completely absurd and unfair.

Not going to comment on the Ukraine situation, not really relevant to the Olympics or these athletes.

 

[Lempo]

I’m for keeping sports and politics separate, but the whole reason the ROC is a thing, and their original cheating was a thing, was because their country was using sports success for politics. And cheating to do so. So those horses are already out of the barn.

Yes, but. Them being sportspeople of the Russian Olympic Committee instead of Russia the state is exactly the kind of forced separation of sports and politics/state that is doable and sound. Strong-arming the Russian sportspeople to become sportspeople for some other state would be politics.

We do know sports and politics get mixed all the time. But despite the neighbor's horses being out there on the pasture, we are still not to let go of the idea that they should be in the neighbor's barn. We are not letting our horses out and not bringing neighbor's horses to our barn. We should strive to stabilize the situation.

 

[Lempo]

Not going to comment on the Ukraine situation, not really relevant to the Olympics or these athletes.

Weeeell the boat sure seems to be rocking a lot lately, all by the doing of the other guy according to one guy.

 

[Lempo]

The positive test also came from a sample that was taken literally 2+ months ago and having nothing to do with the Olympics, and it wasn't even reviewed until coincidentally the day after she won an Olympic Gold medal. Really...? Samples I believe need to be tested in a certain timeframe and not sit for months like that. All her tests in this Olympics have been negative and clean, as have all of her teammates' tests.

Actually, what are the actual facts about this? The positive sample was given December 25th. The sportsperson has the right to demand that the so-called B-sample gets examined (for verification of the A-sample). For breaches like this, and with her age, potentially with low level of personal culpability, a warning is a legally possible and plausible punishment. The Russian anti-doping organization Rusada cleared her to compete in the Olympics. In these circumstances it's kind of obvious that you may try to play time and get the B-sample analysis postponed past the Olympics and apparently it got confirmed and public on Feb 8th, a day after the contest.

It would've been a tough call to ban her from the Olympics with a temporary ban if there is a plausible expectation that she will ultimately get a warning.

But also it was a risk on ROC's part to have her participate and risk the disqualification. Tricky situation.

edit: apparently these are the cases to be heard in the International Court of Appeal for Sports. The hearing is today and the verdict is within 24 hours:

Cas reported on Saturday that three complaints have been made about Valijeva's doping cart. Behind them are the International Olympic Committee (IOC), the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and the International Skating Federation (ISU).

The IOC's complaint is against Russia's anti-doping agency Rusada, which had lifted a temporary ban on competition from Valijeva but lifted it before the start of the Beijing Olympics. Wada's complaint concerns Rusada and Valieva. ISU, for its part, is challenging Rusada and Valieva and the Russian Olympic Committee, which selected Valieva for its Beijing team.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Actually, what are the actual facts about this? The positive sample was given December 25th. The sportsperson has the right to demand that the so-called B-sample gets examined (for verification of the A-sample). For breaches like this, and with her age, potentially with low level of personal culpability, a warning is a legally possible and plausible punishment. The Russian anti-doping organization Rusada cleared her to compete in the Olympics. In these circumstances it's kind of obvious that you may try to play time and get the B-sample analysis postponed past the Olympics and apparently it got confirmed and public on Feb 8th, a day after the contest.

It would've been a tough call to ban her from the Olympics with a temporary ban if there is a plausible expectation that she will ultimately get a warning.

But also it was a risk on ROC's part to have her participate and risk the disqualification. Tricky situation.

edit: apparently these are the cases to be heard in the International Court of Appeal for Sports. The hearing is today and the verdict is within 24 hours:

It's been difficult to find the hard facts as I've seen different outlets reporting different things but I believe it is fact that the sample was given Dec. 25 and it wasn't even reviewed until February 8th. I have read a few things suggesting that the sample is supposed to be reviewed within 20 days, see quote from Washington Post:

"The World Anti-Doping Agency’s handbook that outlines the international standard for laboratories says the reporting of the results from the A sample of a drug test should occur within 20 days of receipt of the sample. (The handbook defines “days” as calendar days, not business days, unless otherwise noted.) Yet this WADA-accredited lab in Stockholm reported Valieva’s result more than six weeks after it was collected."

The reasoning given for the delay is a covid outbreak at that lab which is highly unlikely to be addressed in this "handbook" or whatever so I'm guessing this is partially what will be debated in the appeal right now and also in legal cases that last for well into the future.

I think you are right on point with the plausibility of a warning, I think this is a reasonable likelihood, although there would be significant backlash throughout the world if that is the decision. My understanding is this will be partly settled within the next several hours -- they said a statement will be made with a decision in the afternoon today (Beijing time, it's already around 12:40pm there). That will only determine whether she's eligible to compete in the individual events, still a very real chance if she gets cleared to play that medals could be stripped in the future depending how it plays out legally.

 

[Lempo]

It's been difficult to find the hard facts as I've seen different outlets reporting different things but I believe it is fact that the sample was given Dec. 25 and it wasn't even reviewed until February 8th. I have read a few things suggesting that the sample is supposed to be reviewed within 20 days, see quote from Washington Post:

But if Rusada had already had her on temporary ban which they then lifted before the Olympics, there must have been a positive-tested sample (A-sample?) for that to occur in the first place. The publicized test that confirmed positive on Feb 8 was probably the B-sample.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

But if Rusada had already had her on temporary ban which they then lifted before the Olympics, there must have been a positive-tested sample (A-sample?) for that to occur in the first place. The publicized test that confirmed positive on Feb 8 was probably the B-sample.

No, RUSADA imposed the temporary ban on February 8th then lifted it the next day. There was no knowledge of a positive tested sample at all until February 8th. That is my understanding anyways.

 

[Lempo]

No, RUSADA imposed the temporary ban on February 8th then lifted it the next day. There was no knowledge of a positive tested sample at all until February 8th. That is my understanding anyways.

So it seems. I was working with and from false assumptions due to a way-too-easy-to-misunderstand Finnish article.

Russian Olympic star Valieva tested positive for WADA-banned drug (russkiymir.ru)

The International Doping Testing Agency (ITA) on Friday reported a positive test result taken from 15-year-old Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva, TASS reports. The test was taken on December 25, 2021 at the Russian Championships in St. Petersburg.

Valieva tested positive for trimetazidine - this drug falls under the S4 classification of the WADA list (hormones and metabolic modulators.) Trimetazidine is used to prevent cardiovascular diseases by normalizing the energy metabolism of cells. The drug does not have any effect on the results of athletes, but its use is prohibited both in-competition and out-of-competition.

On February 8, prior to the official announcement of the test results, RUSADA imposed a temporary suspension on Valieva. The Russian athlete submitted an appeal and overturned this decision the following day. The decision was canceled by the RUSADA Disciplinary Committee. The International Olympic Committee filed an appeal against the RUSADA's desicion to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS.) The court will announce its desicion on February 15. The women's skating competition also starts on this day.

Valieva had previously helped the Russian team score gold medal in the team event. Whether the Russian team is going to lose its gold due to the doping scandal remains unknown. The awarding ceremony of Olympic team tournament was postponed earlier.

The date of decision has since changed to Feb 14.

CAS to announce decision on Russian figure skater Valieva on February 14 (TASS)

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

So it seems. I was working with and from false assumptions due to a way-too-easy-to-misunderstand Finnish article.

Russian Olympic star Valieva tested positive for WADA-banned drug (russkiymir.ru)



The date of decision has since changed to Feb 14.

CAS to announce decision on Russian figure skater Valieva on February 14 (TASS)

CAS just announced she will be permitted to compete in the upcoming individual event. Citing reasons being that she's a "protected person" (due to being underage), fairness/irreparable harm (i.e. there will be legal processes that will take longer than the Olympics to sort it out as well as decisions on punishment if the positive test does hold, suspending Valieva now and then having her be cleared later would be "irreparable harm" to her), and the delay in processing the results of the test.

All makes sense to me but still an ugly situation and this news will not be received well at all outside of Russia.

 

[MinJaBen]

Here’s a salute to, Mr. Finman! Well done.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

KILL HIM.
FU^KING KILL HIM.

 

[Lempo]

Here’s a salute to, Mr. Finman! Well done.

A hug is nice but it's not true Olympic spirit until Koch gets grabbed.

"Mieto is a little bit my idol," says Koch. "I remember in 1976, after I'd been second in the 30 K in Innsbruck, I led in the 50 K for the first 30. I passed Mieto like the dumb little rabbit I was. Then I hit the brick wall that awaits all such rabbits. I fell back through the field. By 45 K I was barely walking. I was to the point of not knowing if I could make it to the end. There was a big hill there. I started trudging up it, faint and wobbling, and suddenly there was a huge, gentle hand grabbing hold of me. It was Juha. He pushed me all the way up that hill. It was an infusion of spirit, knowing that another athlete, who knew exactly what I was going through, helped me. At the top of the hill, I knew I could finish. He went on to get seventh or eighth. I finished 13th. I'll never forget that. Never."

A Fire Burns Fiercely Within Him

 

[chaz4hockey]

Nikishin: +2 in first three games.

Nikishin: +3 in first four games.

 

[Brock Anton]

0-4 on the PP (including a 90 second 5v3) and 0-5 in the shootout? Yep, sounds like a David Quinn coached team.

 

[Porvari]

A Finland v Slovakia semifinal. At least there'll be some good-guy representation in the final.

 

[A Star is Burns]

0-4 on the PP (including a 90 second 5v3) and 0-5 in the shootout? Yep, sounds like a David Quinn coached team.

Feels like I've seen some insiders here and there pumping him up for a coaching job in the next cycle. You'd think this wouldn't help, but lots of mediocre to bad coaches get a retread shot.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

I fell asleep after the 1st period of that game. How the hell does the US lose that? And since when do they do a frigging shootout in an elimination game? That's ridiculous. Well go Nikishin now I guess.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Can’t imagine a tournament with a bunch of 2nd tier players thrown together says that much about a coach, good or bad.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

I fell asleep after the 1st period of that game. How the hell does the US lose that? And since when do they do a frigging shootout in an elimination game? That's ridiculous. Well go Nikishin now I guess.

Since forever? I agree it’s beyond stupid but it’s nothing new. Canada had that stunning shoutout loss to the Czechs in the semifinals way back in 1998. That shootout was 1-0 as well.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Since forever? I agree it’s beyond stupid but it’s nothing new. Canada had that stunning shoutout loss to the Czechs in the semifinals way back in 1998. That shootout was 1-0 as well.

I must've erased it from my memory since it's so stupid and been such a long time since the Olympic hockey was actually interesting (i.e. with NHLers)