Post-Game Talk: Okay

[belair]

I'm not the only one who sees him as disengaged so it's not some narrative that I made up out of nowhere.

I'm actually shocked that anybody thinks that Nuge's game has been acceptable this season. Sorry but simply eating up ice time and not getting scored on while not scoring himself and providing some decent work on the PK is simply not good enough for a 2nd line center. If they wanted that, they should have just kept Strome for half the price and put him at #2C. That's fine from your 3rd line center but not your 2nd line center. Hell, Strome is outscoring him this season without the gravy McDrai PP time.

Furthermore, the eye test shows a player who isn't skating hard and isn't fighting for pucks. He's been utterly invisible the last 5 games or so.
Nuge is usually a slow starter so I expect him to pick it up as the season wears on but thus far this season? Not good enough and anybody who thinks he's been good enough is reaching for a needle in a haystack for reasons to find his game acceptable. Some posters are right, this guy really is Teflon Nuge at times. He can do no wrong in the eyes of some posters and FTR, I've been a guy who has defended him at times in the past. In fact, I defended him a few weeks ago even.

Like @nabob just pointed out. There's a ton of stuff there on the other side of the game that's showing up for him. Disengaged centers don't average twenty minutes a night. They don't lead your team's PK. The guy is a workhorse, regularly seeing EV ice with some second rate linemates while generally facing some quality NHL competition on the other side of the ice.

Sure we need goals from him. But we need goals from a lot of guys.

 

[CupofOil]

Like @nabob just pointed out. There's a ton of stuff there on the other side of the game that's showing up for him. Disengaged centers don't average twenty minutes a night. They don't lead your team's PK. The guy is a workhorse, regularly seeing EV ice with some second rate linemates while generally facing some quality NHL competition on the other side of the ice.

Sure we need goals from him. But we need goals from a lot of guys.

Same thing we heard about Strome last year, exactly.
Again, that's perfectly acceptable from your 3rd line center who is making $3M/yr but from your $6M center, you need him to score or at least create for his linemates. Nuge has done neither this season.

It's not good enough from your 2nd line center especially for a team that is starving for secondary offense and is getting zero (literally) from their 2nd line center. He's supposed to be their PRIMARY source for secondary offense, is paid to do so, and isn't delivering. He's not paid to eat up ice time and not be a difference maker.

 

[belair]

Same thing we heard about Strome last year, exactly.
Again, that's perfectly acceptable from your 3rd line center who is making $3M/yr but from your $6M center, you need him to score or at least create for his linemates. Nuge has done neither this season. Not good enough from your 2nd line center especially for a team that is starving for secondary offense and is getting zero (literally) from their 2nd line center..

Third line centers don't do what Nuge does.

 

[CupofOil]

Third line centers don't do what Nuge does.

Strome did exactly what Nuge is doing this year except without all the gravy McDrai PP minutes.
Nuge is a 2nd line center generally but he's playing like a 3rd line center this season.

 

[Soundwave]

If the guy who's supposed to be the 3rd best forward on your team can't score 5 on 5, really how can you put the expectation on the Khairas, Granlunds, etc. to be your secondary scoring.

The issue of secondary scoring problems starts with RNH and filters down from there.

 

[I am the Liquor]

Like @nabob just pointed out. There's a ton of stuff there on the other side of the game that's showing up for him. Disengaged centers don't average twenty minutes a night. They don't lead your team's PK. The guy is a workhorse, regularly seeing EV ice with some second rate linemates while generally facing some quality NHL competition on the other side of the ice.

Sure we need goals from him. But we need goals from a lot of guys.

Are you talking about Horcoff?

 

[belair]

Strome did exactly what Nuge is doing this year except without all the gravy McDrai PP minutes.
Nuge is a 2nd line center generally but he's playing like a 3rd line center this season.

Strome's production comes with a caveat. It's why he's given the puck away far more than he's gotten it back. If RNH played with the same level of risk to create offense, his production would probably be better, but it'd result in a greater number of turnovers, which likely increases the workload on the defense and goaltending.

If you have a team that's prioritizing goal production over every other facet of the game, your team becomes a mess defensively. Players will take unnecessary risks and less talented or less intelligent players are prone to making low percentage plays.

I like Strome and thought that trading him last season was absolutely pointless. But I understand that his game has limitations offensively and when he's required to play a safer game, his production will plateau. He might score 60 points this year, but it's not necessarily beneficial for the NY Rangers.

In regards to Nuge, third line centers don't play twenty minutes a night. They generally aren't tasked with the matchups his line generally faces. Sure, we could use more offense there, but I'm sure he could use better options beside him.

 

[Soundwave]

Nuge is what he is, useful player, but can't ever be put under the pressure of being the best player on his line. He doesn't have the mental fortitude to deal with that and will always crack under pressure.

Same thing in 16-17 season ... now that the Oilers are playing meaningful games again, RNH once again reverts to being an offensive let down.

 

[belair]

Are you talking about Horcoff?

What about Horcoff? The guy who had his production inflated for the majority of his career by an elite level offensive winger?

I'm not even sure why someone would have it out for that guy anymore. He was a late round pick who was tasked with playing a role far higher than his talent level should have allowed him.

He was a massively important component of a Stanley Cup run and was a voted All Star. The only reason people hated on the guy was when he got severely overpaid.

He's comparable in the sense that he's an extremely important component of the team's chances of winning games. But I honestly think it would've been a lot easier to find a Horcoff replacement back then than it would be finding a 20-minute a night play-all-situations center today.

 

[CupofOil]

Strome's production comes with a caveat. It's why he's given the puck away far more than he's gotten it back. If RNH played with the same level of risk to create offense, his production would probably be better, but it'd result in a greater number of turnovers, which likely increases the workload in the defense and goaltending.

If you have a team that's prioritizing goal production over every other facet of the game, your team becomes a mess defensively. Players will take unnecessary risks and less talented or less intelligent players are prone to making low percentage plays.

I like Strome and thought that trading him last season was absolutely pointless. But I understand that his game has limitations offensively and when he's required to play a safer game, his production will plateau. He might score 60 points this year, but it's not necessarily beneficial for the NY Rangers.

In regards to Nuge, third line centers don't play twenty minutes a night. They generally aren't tasked with the matchups his line generally faces. Sure, we could use more offense there, but I'm sure he could use better options beside him.

The reason why I brought up Strome is because it's the same exact things that are said about Nuge now. Snakebitten, does all the little things right, breaking even despite not scoring. This is all well and good for your 3rd line center but top 6 centers are supposed to score. Nuge is the 3rd best forward on this team by a country mile, he's relied on to score more than 1 PP goal in the first 16 games even with all the PP time he gets with elite talents. He's supposed to be able to create offense as a 2nd line driver and make others better. He hasn't been doing any of this this season.

To clarify, I'm not calling RNH a 3rd line center (it's obvious that he isn't) and I'm not saying that Strome is just as good but as far as the here and now in this season 16 games in, he's not carrying his weight.
I expect him to get better as the season wears on but what we've seen thus far is not good enough from your 2nd line center and 3rd best forward. No excuses, he needs to be better and if he doesn't supply more offense in that role over the duration of the season, the Oilers are dead in the water. 20 goals and 50 points with at least reasonable even strength production, he's far off that pace currently.

 

[nabob]

Strome did exactly what Nuge is doing this year except without all the gravy McDrai PP minutes.
Nuge is a 2nd line center generally but he's playing like a 3rd line center this season.

thats where you’d be wrong. If a couple of the posts he’s hit went in then he’d be one of the better #2C in the league right now, and doing it with poo poo linemates.

 

[nabob]

The reason why I brought up Strome is because it's the same exact things that are said about Nuge now. Snakebitten, does all the little things right, breaking even despite not scoring. This is all well and good for your 3rd line center but top 6 centers are supposed to score. Nuge is the 3rd best forward on this team by a country mile, he's relied on to score more than 1 PP goal in the first 16 games even with all the PP time he gets with elite talents. He's supposed to be able to create offense as a 2nd line driver and make others better. He hasn't been doing any of this this season.

To clarify, I'm not calling RNH a 3rd line center (it's obvious that he isn't) and I'm not saying that Strome is just as good but as far as the here and now in this season 16 games in, he's not carrying his weight.
I expect him to get better as the season wears on but what we've seen thus far is not good enough from your 2nd line center and 3rd best forward. No excuses, he needs to be better and if he doesn't supply more offense in that role over the duration of the season, the Oilers are dead in the water. 20 goals and 50 points with at least reasonable even strength production, he's far off that pace currently.

20 goals and 50 points at even strength playing with a mix of Khaira, Jurco, Gagner, Neal, and other AHL scrubbery is ridiculous. Add in that he’s also being counted on to be our top PK center and you’re basically saying that at minimum he should be able to put up Patrice Bergeron numbers. Except even Bergeron doesn’t put up those kind of numbers at even strength.

 

[Stoneman89]

20 goals and 50 points at even strength playing with a mix of Khaira, Jurco, Gagner, Neal, and other AHL scrubbery is ridiculous. Add in that he’s also being counted on to be our top PK center and you’re basically saying that at minimum he should be able to put up Patrice Bergeron numbers. Except even Bergeron doesn’t put up those kind of numbers at even strength.

Neal has 11 goals this year, so I wouldn't lump him in with scrubs. And Gagner is at least a serviceable forward, who Tippet thought enough of to place on MacDavid's line for most of last night. Regardless of numbers, the eyeball test says the Nuge should be doing more offensively, despite his moments of puck retrieval and PK work.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Manning has been fine in his limited time this year. He has a decent Corsi, is playing somewhat physical, and is generally moving the puck out of his zone. Nothing against Persson, but putting Manning back in for a game or two is not going to kill the team.

His corsi or other accounting theories and numbers don’t change his game, which is bounce puck off boards, make no passes, ice puck. The game of a #7. No thank you. We’ve seen enough of that since 2006

 

[CupofOil]

20 goals and 50 points at even strength playing with a mix of Khaira, Jurco, Gagner, Neal, and other AHL scrubbery is ridiculous. Add in that he’s also being counted on to be our top PK center and you’re basically saying that at minimum he should be able to put up Patrice Bergeron numbers. Except even Bergeron doesn’t put up those kind of numbers at even strength.

20 goals and 50 points total with reasonable even strength production.

I know that you see no wrong in Nuge so it isn't even worth arguing. 1 goal, none at even strength, after 16 games is garbage for a 2nd line center. If you think that's acceptable then fine. It is what it is.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Agreed. Said for a while not that Khaira needs to be much more engaged. Showing up on the ice and saying they didn't get a goal while I was on there is not good enough in this day and age, and one of the reasons Drai and McDavid get burnt out so early in the year. Good teams have bottom 6ers that not only try to get zone time, but chip in now and then and create havoc around the net. I see very little of that from Khaira, and for a man blessed with his size and strength, it is a real waste and shame it's not utilized.

So who in the bottom six has been better than Khaira?.... he’s the only one next to Haas with a goal... and he’s actually gotten chances in his last 3 games. Whenever we lose, all the clowns on here jump on Khaira to rip him apart, even when he has an okay game with no big mistakes, because it’s easy for you and, for some profound reason, makes you feel good about yourself and your “analysis”




Sad and childish. Embarrassing

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

So who in the bottom six has been better than Khaira?.... he’s the only one next to Haas with a goal... and he’s actually gotten chances in his last 3 games. Whenever we lose, all the clowns on here jump on Khaira to rip him apart, even when he has an okay game with no big mistakes, because it’s easy for you and, for some profound reason, makes you feel good about yourself and your “analysis”

Sad and childish. Embarrassing

I think you need to check some posting history before making blanket statements about anyone who is being critical about his game. Yesterday you went as far as to say that I had a bias against Khaira. Show me a single post where I have "ripped" on him even once before mentioning I was not happy with his offensive game yesterday.

I stand by my comments about the offensive part of his game, and it goes for Chaisson and Granlund as I also stated.

If you want a line to do nothing but waste time till the big guns go out, then there are your 3 guys. If you want a line to take pucks to the net, drive the net and create some offensive havoc in the blue paint, where he scored his lone goal, then Khaira and the others mentioned, are not your guys until they realize they have to do more than clock killing.

Tippett said it himself, they have to work harder at getting goals and not just kill the clock. Yesterday Khaira was in prime clock killing mode and that has to change, its as simple as that. He is capable of it as we have seen. We just haven't seen it since his suspension last season and the new GM wont wait forever.

 

[belair]

His corsi or other accounting theories and numbers don’t change his game, which is bounce puck off boards, make no passes, ice puck. The game of a #7. No thank you. We’ve seen enough of that since 2006

To be entirely honest, I'm not sure I remember a Manning icing this season. If there's a way of looking that up, I'd be interested. I don't think he was any more of a risk to ice that puck than Benning or Nurse is.

Manning did something that very few of the 6/7s we've had in recent history did though in his call up. He supported our offense, generated shots and got involved offensively. He has more goals than a large contingent of our forward group.

 

[McTonyBrar]

I think you need to check some posting history before making blanket statements about anyone who is being critical about his game. Yesterday you went as far as to say that I had a bias against Khaira. Show me a single post where I have "ripped" on him even once before mentioning I was not happy with his offensive game yesterday.

I stand by my comments about the offensive part of his game, and it goes for Chaisson and Granlund as I also stated.

If you want a line to do nothing but waste time till the big guns go out, then there are your 3 guys. If you want a line to take pucks to the net, drive the net and create some offensive havoc in the blue paint, where he scored his lone goal, then Khaira and the others mentioned, are not your guys until they realize they have to do more than clock killing.

Tippett said it himself, they have to work harder at getting goals and not just kill the clock. Yesterday Khaira was in prime clock killing mode and that has to change, its as simple as that. He is capable of it as we have seen. We just haven't seen it since his suspension last season and the new GM wont wait forever.

Sorry I did hear Tippett say that but I didn’t hear him call Khaira out directly....



Can you please change your avatar? I can’t stop laughing at work

 

[McTonyBrar]

What’s with the Tkachuk pictures anyway?

 

[nexttothemoon]

Manning has been ok so far (in limited minutes)... and I certainly don't like the player or the trade... but I freely admit that he hasn't been a negative in his time on ice this season.

Hell he even has a goal which is more than most of the bottom 8 forwards have so far.

Manning/Benning/KRussell get shit on regularly here... but they are all doing ok/well in the minutes they play and all are net positives this season so far.

 

[ujju2]

Nuge is what he is, useful player, but can't ever be put under the pressure of being the best player on his line. He doesn't have the mental fortitude to deal with that and will always crack under pressure.

Same thing in 16-17 season ... now that the Oilers are playing meaningful games again, RNH once again reverts to being an offensive let down.

He was the best player on his line last season...

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Sorry I did hear Tippett say that but I didn’t hear him call Khaira out directly....

Can you please change your avatar? I can’t stop laughing at work

No he didn't call out Khaira in name but I think its pretty obvious he is referring to a group of players which Khaira belongs, including Chaisson and Granlund. Bottom line is that entire group needs to pick it up but I was particularly bugged at how Khaira played inside the Arizona blue line, and a few things would have been when he was probably off camera and did not have the puck. He does do a good job on the wall, but he needs (and a lot of other Oilers) to remember that the net is not on the wall.

I cant change my avatar until Patrick Russell scores, or Remembrance Day comes, whichever happens first. Sorry!!!

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

What’s with the Tkachuk pictures anyway?

Lost a bet...

Bottom Six Bingo

 

[Jakey53]

The amount of obstruction they got away with was crazy.

Good game by most of the team tonight. Koskinen with a couple weak goals, combined with brutal officiating (you know it’s bad when our commentators start harping on the poor officiating), and a hot Kuemper, and it wasn’t meant to be

Team played like crap for most of the first 2 periods. Didn't really start to push until they were down a goal in the 3rd. Would be nice if we could at least get a 40-45 minute effort if not 60.

Well the refs pretty much won that for the Coyotes. That was ****ing brutal.

I lived in Edmonton for 22 years and during the hey day of TGO and company, and now live in Phoenix, so I'm a fan of both teams. I thought it was a very good game and it could have gone either way, but please, don't say the reffing was the reason Edmonton lost. Kuemper was better than Koskinen, but both teams had chances. It was a very intertaining game, and both are very good teams.