Oilers Untouchables. #1

[Aerchon]

Klefbom is a bottom pairing d-man on the majority of teams in the league. He wouldn't even crack the roster on a handful of them. Just because he's one of our better d-men here doesn't mean he's actually a top end player.

With or without Klefbom, without a major overhaul on defense we still have a **** defense.

With Hall we have one of the best in the world at Left Wing. Without him we're stuck with Benoit Pouliot and Matt Hendricks.

You are never going to get an upgrade on Taylor Hall's position. Not unless you manage to pry Ovechkin or Benn away from their respective teams.

In my eyes, this is easily Taylor Hall. We have no one on the team, or in the system who will be able to replace what he can do for this team. The only one else worth debating is RNH. But honestly, he is going to effectively be replaced as the teams top line center within a calender year. Short term he'll be needed to shelter McDavid, but that wont be for very long.

This.

 

[A91]

McDavid
Hall
RNH
Nurse
at #5 it starts to get fun.

 

[thadd]

1 - Nurse - He's exactly what we need. We haven't had a guy like him since Pronger.
2 - Eberle - Consistently smart and offensive. Smart enough that he can play with anyone.
3 - Klefbom - Size, speed and a slap shot on the rear? Can't afford to give it up. Need more Klefboms.
4 - Hopkins - Our #1 center. Our 2nd and 3rd best options are rookies. Hard to pry him away.
5 - Yakupov - Just starting to show what he was 1st overall. Value is way too low to trade now.
6 - Hall - Should be higher but his value is so high that it makes him easier to trade.
7 - Draisaitl - If we didn't have Mcdavid He'd probably be #3 and Hopkins would be #1.
8 - Schultz - Please get him out of Edmonton.

 

[Samus44]

Trading Nugent Hopkins would be the stupidest thing they could possibly do so him. In fact trading any of Hall, Eberle, Nurse, Klefbom would be stupid too. The Chicago Blackhawks haven't needed to trade their core of Hossa/Sharp/Toews/Kane/Keith/Seabrook and have had room for other good players so why should we have to trade any of McDavid/Hopkins/Hall/Eberle/Nurse/Klefbom/Draisaitl/Yakupov. The reality is our players are significantly cheaper and until Draisaitl or Yakupov really push the guys in front of them they're easily retained given their RFA status. We can add some veterans until those players get more expensive and then you trade the complementary pieces. If Draisaitl can bring back fair value, an impact player, then perhaps you deal him given the strength at center but it's not like they need to panic. Throw a bunch of money at dmen if you have to.

 

[phrenssoa]

Klefbom is a bottom pairing d-man on the majority of teams in the league. He wouldn't even crack the roster on a handful of them. Just because he's one of our better d-men here doesn't mean he's actually a top end player.

With or without Klefbom, without a major overhaul on defense we still have a **** defense.

With Hall we have one of the best in the world at Left Wing. Without him we're stuck with Benoit Pouliot and Matt Hendricks.

You are never going to get an upgrade on Taylor Hall's position. Not unless you manage to pry Ovechkin or Benn away from their respective teams.

In my eyes, this is easily Taylor Hall. We have no one on the team, or in the system who will be able to replace what he can do for this team. The only one else worth debating is RNH. But honestly, he is going to effectively be replaced as the teams top line center within a calender year. Short term he'll be needed to shelter McDavid, but that wont be for very long.

Agreed on all points.

 

[OnTheBrink]

Nuge for me I mean who else do we have as a vet that our young centers can go live with and be mentored by... I wonder if he takes McDavid in this year like he did Drai last year.

Kidding aside I think that speaks volumes to his character, not to mention he is the best all around player on the team and plays one of the most important positions.

 

[Mr Positive]

Nuge for me I mean who else do we have as a vet that our young centers can go live with and be mentored by... I wonder if he takes McDavid in this year like he did Drai last year.

Kidding aside I think that speaks volumes to his character, not to mention he is the best all around player on the team and plays one of the most important positions.

I agree. For me, developing and supporting McDavid is now the #1 priority of this organization going into next season. That makes Nuge the #1 untouchable because he can shelter McDavid by taking on the 1C role.

Next offseason, RNH may become the player we sell the hardest, just because if McDavid becomes an established 1C and Drai is ready, we can now trade RNH for a massive return that will basically complete the rebuild, and we keep our wingers to give McDavid so we can continue to support McDavid and Drai. Or, maybe we keep RNH and trade Drai. To me the perfect setup for our top six down the middle is to have McDavid be the skill guy and for Drai to be the bigger center who plays that different style.

 

[Samus44]

I agree. For me, developing and supporting McDavid is now the #1 priority of this organization going into next season. That makes Nuge the #1 untouchable because he can shelter McDavid by taking on the 1C role.

Next offseason, RNH may become the player we are selling the most, because if McDavid becomes an established 1C and Drai is also ready, we can trade RNH for a massive return that will complete the rebuild, and we keep our wingers to give McDavid so we can continue to support McDavid and Drai. Or, maybe we keep RNH and trade Drai. To me it seems too perfect to have McDavid as the skill guy, and Drai as the bigger center with a different playing style.

Or instead of trading Hopkins you can do what good teams do and acquire good players by trading picks and prospects or by signing them as UFA's (which should be far more possible now).

 

[OnTheBrink]

I agree. For me, developing and supporting McDavid is now the #1 priority of this organization going into next season. That makes Nuge the #1 untouchable because he can shelter McDavid by taking on the 1C role.

Next offseason, RNH may become the player we sell the hardest, just because if McDavid becomes an established 1C and Drai is ready, we can now trade RNH for a massive return that will basically complete the rebuild, and we keep our wingers to give McDavid so we can continue to support McDavid and Drai. Or, maybe we keep RNH and trade Drai. To me the perfect setup for our top six down the middle is to have McDavid be the skill guy and for Drai to be the bigger center who plays that different style.

Agrees with everything up until the trade next year, even if Drai closes the gap he will never be a better player then RNH even if he plays a different style, and it's not like he plays a hugely physical game like a Getzlaf or Backes to bring that element, he plays a skill game and Nuge plays a better skill game. Going further I don't think that either of them has a edge in the defensive department of their game. I trade neither but if you had to twist my arm to trade one I trade Drai.

 

[Up the Irons]

Outside of McDavid no one is untouchable. The days of labeling your core 4 or 5 years before they've proven anything as a group need to be burned and buried, never to be revisited. That was a mistake from day 1.

Of course, Hall and RNH can only be moved for a trade that might not reasonably be possible (ie. OEL probably isn't available), but we can't be attached to these guys; they've proven NOTHING as a group. If any they've proven that a shake up or new direction would be prudent.

There is no reason to go all-in with them anymore.

I don't care who it is, if the trade makes sense, you do it. And I don't care how many man-crushed hearts are broken.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Klefbom is a bottom pairing d-man on the majority of teams in the league. He wouldn't even crack the roster on a handful of them. Just because he's one of our better d-men here doesn't mean he's actually a top end player.

With or without Klefbom, without a major overhaul on defense we still have a **** defense.

With Hall we have one of the best in the world at Left Wing. Without him we're stuck with Benoit Pouliot and Matt Hendricks.

You are never going to get an upgrade on Taylor Hall's position. Not unless you manage to pry Ovechkin or Benn away from their respective teams.

In my eyes, this is easily Taylor Hall. We have no one on the team, or in the system who will be able to replace what he can do for this team. The only one else worth debating is RNH. But honestly, he is going to effectively be replaced as the teams top line center within a calender year. Short term he'll be needed to shelter McDavid, but that wont be for very long.

I disagree with much of your post, as to the bolded, IIRC you also felt that Klefbom had no offensive upside due to his numbers prior to this season. IMO he has a massive upside. Skating, size, strength, heavy shot and good hockey IQ. My only issue with him is that I'd like to see him truck guys every now and then. He is far from a finished product at this point.

 

[The Nuge]

I disagree

If we were trying to get an established #1 D and we had a package and they wanted To swap in Hall I would really not want to

But if we are trading for a established number 1 D and they want us to include Klefbom Im all for it

Voted Hall

I also feel we can skip the next one, Whoever loses out of Hall/ Nuge will win the next one by a landslide

Except one dman won't fix our defense (at least not with the guys we're going to be able to get). If you remove Klefbom, and put in say Jones, our defense still blows. We need to add to Klefbom. If you remove Hall, we're still in decent shape. Just look at the games we played without him last year. Purcell has played top line before, so if we have to plug him into the second line, oh well.

Klefbom is a bottom pairing d-man on the majority of teams in the league. He wouldn't even crack the roster on a handful of them. Just because he's one of our better d-men here doesn't mean he's actually a top end player.

With or without Klefbom, without a major overhaul on defense we still have a **** defense.

With Hall we have one of the best in the world at Left Wing. Without him we're stuck with Benoit Pouliot and Matt Hendricks.

You are never going to get an upgrade on Taylor Hall's position. Not unless you manage to pry Ovechkin or Benn away from their respective teams.

In my eyes, this is easily Taylor Hall. We have no one on the team, or in the system who will be able to replace what he can do for this team. The only one else worth debating is RNH. But honestly, he is going to effectively be replaced as the teams top line center within a calender year. Short term he'll be needed to shelter McDavid, but that wont be for very long.

Klefbom isn't a bottom pairing dman. Just look at Petry. The old he's part of a crappy defense so he must suck thing sure worked out well for us there. Everyone was convinced he was a #5 pretending to be a top pairing guy, yet he still looks like a #3 now that he's in Montreal. Without Hall, we have Pouliot and Purcell for the top 6, and a bunch of callups who could fill in in the bottom 6 (Yakimov, Miller, Slepyshev, etc). Take out Klefbom and we have who exactly? Ference? Nikitin? I knew it wouldn't be a popular opinion, but we have guys who can replace any forward or goalie on the team. We don't have someone who could replace Klefbom right now

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Poor Jultz zero votes.

 

[McDeepika]

Klefbom is a bottom pairing d-man on the majority of teams in the league. He wouldn't even crack the roster on a handful of them. Just because he's one of our better d-men here doesn't mean he's actually a top end player.

With or without Klefbom, without a major overhaul on defense we still have a **** defense.

With Hall we have one of the best in the world at Left Wing. Without him we're stuck with Benoit Pouliot and Matt Hendricks.

You are never going to get an upgrade on Taylor Hall's position. Not unless you manage to pry Ovechkin or Benn away from their respective teams.

In my eyes, this is easily Taylor Hall. We have no one on the team, or in the system who will be able to replace what he can do for this team. The only one else worth debating is RNH. But honestly, he is going to effectively be replaced as the teams top line center within a calender year. Short term he'll be needed to shelter McDavid, but that wont be for very long.

If you look at all the top teams over the years, I would argue that the #2C is more important then the #1 winger in all cases except for the Blackhawks.

 

[phrenssoa]

If you look at all the top teams over the years, I would argue that the #2C is more important then the #1 winger in all cases except for the Blackhawks.

Right, but I think a lot of people are expecting Draisaitl to turn into a good 2nd line centre. The Oilers' top-six depth is just brutal on the wings right now. Hall's departure would force someone like Hendricks, Purcell, or Miller to slot into his spot. Hall makes everyone around him better, and he's by far the Oilers' most dominant player when on his game.

 

[SK13]

Except one dman won't fix our defense (at least not with the guys we're going to be able to get). If you remove Klefbom, and put in say Jones, our defense still blows. We need to add to Klefbom. If you remove Hall, we're still in decent shape. Just look at the games we played without him last year. Purcell has played top line before, so if we have to plug him into the second line, oh well.

We're not in decent shape without Hall, though.

Pouliot had to shoot 20% for us to be JUST AS BAD at a time when the team was actually scoring more across the board. When Hall was back under Nelson, he was a PPG player at +7 on the third friggin' line.

Straight up: Ryan Nugent-Hopkins and Jordan Eberle are not players in Taylor Hall's league. He is a tier better than either. The centre is important for team balance, but losing Hall means losing the teams only current superstar.

 

[Spawn]

I disagree with much of your post, as to the bolded, IIRC you also felt that Klefbom had no offensive upside due to his numbers prior to this season. IMO he has a massive upside. Skating, size, strength, heavy shot and good hockey IQ. My only issue with him is that I'd like to see him truck guys every now and then. He is far from a finished product at this point.

Klefbom does have huge upside. I was super impressed with him this year big time. He could be a really great #3 d-man as soon as this year. But he isn't that yet. And there are no guarantees that he'll get there. We've seen so many players here in Edmonton peak early and never take that next level to being truly top end talent in the league. Give it a year and Klefbom can very easily climb this list. But he's not nearly the most valuable player to this team right now.

Klefbom isn't a bottom pairing dman. Just look at Petry. The old he's part of a crappy defense so he must suck thing sure worked out well for us there. Everyone was convinced he was a #5 pretending to be a top pairing guy, yet he still looks like a #3 now that he's in Montreal. Without Hall, we have Pouliot and Purcell for the top 6, and a bunch of callups who could fill in in the bottom 6 (Yakimov, Miller, Slepyshev, etc). Take out Klefbom and we have who exactly? Ference? Nikitin? I knew it wouldn't be a popular opinion, but we have guys who can replace any forward or goalie on the team. We don't have someone who could replace Klefbom right now

Jeff Petry right now is a vastly better d-man than Klefbom. Once Petry was traded, Klefbom got badly exposed as a player playing way over his head. Klefbom has a tonne of tools, but he hasn't put them together.

If you don't think he's a bottom pairing d-man, outside of Edmonton which teams would he be in the top 4? Is it more than a handful?

And did you seriously just say that we have Benoit Pouliot and Teddy Purcell to replace Taylor Hall? Teddy Purcell is waiver fodder. We'd be lucky if another team in the league would take him for free. And Pouliot is a solid player, but he's never been anything more than a 15-20 goal, 35 point player. Hall is 23 years old, he's been a top 10 point producer in the league twice. He just had a down year, largely due to injury. He was healthy for the WC, and was named to the all-star team for the tournament. Take out Oscar Klefbom and there is a handful of d-men available in free agency, and even more available for trade that could instantly step in and be as good or better next season. Not necessarily long term. But next season? Absolutely.

Taylor Hall is one of the best three left wingers in the world. Is Oscar Klefbom even in the top 100 for defensemen? As I said in my response to BBO, Klefbom can climb a list like this for sure. But he's not enough of a sure bet to even be remotely in the conversation with Taylor Hall, or RNH... or Eberle for that matter.

If you look at all the top teams over the years, I would argue that the #2C is more important then the #1 winger in all cases except for the Blackhawks.

Yeah but often times that is because those other teams #2C is an elite player. RNH hasn't gotten to that level yet. Taylor Hall has. Don't get me wrong though. RNH is very clearly the next person in this list. No one else is even remotely close to Hall or RNH right now.

Eberle doesn't have the ability to dominate a game like Hall, or impact at both ends of the ice like RNH.

Klefbom and Yakupov haven't shown enough yet at the NHL level to be 100% certain that they are going to be great players

Darnell Nurse and Leon Draisaitl have shown even less than that. No one wants to think this is a possibility and I certainly don't think this will happen, but there is a chance that they could both just flat out flop and never amount to a thing.

 

[The Nuge]

Jeff Petry right now is a vastly better d-man than Klefbom. Once Petry was traded, Klefbom got badly exposed as a player playing way over his head. Klefbom has a tonne of tools, but he hasn't put them together.

Go back a year, and change Klefbom to Petry, and that's exactly what people were saying. Yes, he was in over his head, and Petry is better right now, but Klefbom is already a solid second pairing, any situation, dman.

If you don't think he's a bottom pairing d-man, outside of Edmonton which teams would he be in the top 4? Is it more than a handful?

It'd be shorter to list teams he wouldn't be in the top 4 of.
Anaheim
Tampa
Chicago (close)
Nashville
NYR
Washington (close)

And did you seriously just say that we have Benoit Pouliot and Teddy Purcell to replace Taylor Hall? Teddy Purcell is waiver fodder. We'd be lucky if another team in the league would take him for free. And Pouliot is a solid player, but he's never been anything more than a 15-20 goal, 35 point player.

Purcell only has no value because of his caphit. He's still, at worst, a 35-45 point veteran. His play picked up a lot as the year went on, so I'm hoping he was just another player dragged down by Eakins.

Pouliot filled in fantastically on the top line. He was on pace for like 27 goals, and 48 points. I'd be much more confident in Pouliot filling in for Hall (something he's shown he can do) than having Ference fill in for Klefbom (especially if it means we have to call up a guy like Hunt to fill in for Ference)

Hall is 23 years old, he's been a top 10 point producer in the league twice. He just had a down year, largely due to injury. He was healthy for the WC, and was named to the all-star team for the tournament.

I never said he wasn't. He's the best player on our team right now, and the 2nd most valuable after McDavid.

Take out Oscar Klefbom and there is a handful of d-men available in free agency, and even more available for trade that could instantly step in and be as good or better next season. Not necessarily long term. But next season? Absolutely.

Phil Kessel is also available. If you can trade for a guy to replace Klefbom, you could also trade for someone to replace Hall.

Taylor Hall is one of the best three left wingers in the world. Is Oscar Klefbom even in the top 100 for defensemen? As I said in my response to BBO, Klefbom can climb a list like this for sure. But he's not enough of a sure bet to even be remotely in the conversation with Taylor Hall, or RNH... or Eberle for that matter.

This is a discussion of importance to the team. Hall is absolutely better relative to his peers league wide, but imo, Klefbom is better relative to his peers on our team.

 

[SK13]

I mean... I'm with The Nuge on a lot of the details of his post, but Klefbom more valuable to the team than Hall is at best an insane over-correction.

(Also, Klefbom would totally be playing top-six in Chicago in the SCF. They're playing Kyle Cumiskey with Seabrook in the second pairing).

 

[phrenssoa]

Klefbom really wasn't that good last year. His turnovers just drove me insane. He wasn't great defensively either, and he was just ok offensively (though better than I expected). He wasn't very good at this past WHC. Sure, the guy has all the tools to succeed, but to say he's more valuable than Hall to this team? That seems absolutely ridiculous to me.

 

[The Nuge]

I mean... I'm with The Nuge on a lot of the details of his post, but Klefbom more valuable to the team than Hall is at best an insane over-correction.

(Also, Klefbom would totally be playing top-six in Chicago in the SCF. They're playing Kyle Cumiskey with Seabrook in the second pairing).

And I'm totally prepared to be flamed for it, and I'm not expecting people to agree with me. After watching the team struggle defensively when we lost Petry, I can only imagine how much we'd struggle if we lost our only other legit top 4 dman. I feel more confident sliding Pouliot and Purcell up a line, and adding say Yakimov, than I would be sliding Ference and Nikitin up a pairing, and bringing in Hunt

 

[Spawn]

Go back a year, and change Klefbom to Petry, and that's exactly what people were saying. Yes, he was in over his head, and Petry is better right now, but Klefbom is already a solid second pairing, any situation, dman.



It'd be shorter to list teams he wouldn't be in the top 4 of.
Anaheim
Tampa
Chicago (close)
Nashville
NYR
Washington (close)

You have so insanely overrated Klefbom here if you think he'd be a top 4 d-men on all but 6 teams in the league. Blows my mind honestly.

 

[The Nuge]

You have so insanely overrated Klefbom here if you think he'd be a top 4 d-men on all but 6 teams in the league. Blows my mind honestly.

I missed a couple guys who were hurt so it's a few more, but it's definitely less than half where he wouldn't make the top 4. I was also crazy for thinking Petry was a #3 dman, and not a bottom pairing guy... Klefbom is a 21 year old, big, mobile, ~30 point dman. Teams would find a spot for him in their top 4.

 

[SK13]

And I'm totally prepared to be flamed for it, and I'm not expecting people to agree with me. After watching the team struggle defensively when we lost Petry, I can only imagine how much we'd struggle if we lost our only other legit top 4 dman. I feel more confident sliding Pouliot and Purcell up a line, and adding say Yakimov, than I would be sliding Ference and Nikitin up a pairing, and bringing in Hunt

I guess my point is the Oilers will probably upgrade on Klefbom this summer. Twice. There are only two players I would consider an upgrade on Hall at LW on the planet.

And while we are bringing in McDavid, two franchise players beats one. We've seen it in Pittsburgh and Chicago. We see it in LA with Kopitar and Doughty. Nobody else on this team: Not Nuge, not Eberle, and definitely not Klefbom safely projects to that.

So while moving Klefbom would be a blow to the team, and not something I would want them to do, it would be far easier to replace or replicate than Hall. It would in fact, be impossible to replicate or upgrade on Taylor Hall.

I expect a healthy Hall would outscore Pouliot and Purcell combined by 10+ points.

 

[Spawn]

I missed a couple guys who were hurt so it's a few more, but it's definitely less than half where he wouldn't make the top 4. I was also crazy for thinking Petry was a #3 dman, and not a bottom pairing guy... Klefbom is a 21 year old, big, mobile, ~30 point dman. Teams would find a spot for him in their top 4.

Nashville: no
St Louis: no
Chicago: no
Vancouver: no
Winnipeg: no
Calgary: no
Anahiem: no
Minnesota: no

Tampa: no
NYR: no
MTL: no
Washington: no
Detroit: no
Pittsburgh: no
Ottawa: maybe
NYI: maybe

14 of 16 playoff teams no way he'd have been in their top 4 this past season, 2 of them maybe.

Throw in teams like LA, Boston, Florida, Columbus also and then there are a bunch of other teams (San Jose, Dallas, NJD) with maybes where they have similar types of players as Klefbom that Klefbom would have no certainty of playing ahead of.

I think you're either way off base with your assessment of Klefbom or way off base with your assessment of the rest of the teams in the league.