Post-Game Talk: Oilers play like an expansion team and lose.

K1984

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Feb 7, 2008
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Until the team commits to plays defense its not going anywhere. This obviously includes the forwards. Starts from the top to the bottom. The top 6 forwards arent doing their job defensively nor are the bottom 6 forwards.

The defense in particular has been pretty atrocious this year. I'd say the only guys living upto the expectations are Barrie and Nemo. This team really needed Bouchard and Broberg to take steps in order to elevate. Bouchard in particular, has fell off a cliff. Broberg is just there. Ceci was so reliable last year, he made very few mistakes. Hes inconsistent this year. Kulak is a mixed bag. Sometimes good and sometimes bad. Nurse is usually good but is prone for 2-3 brain lapses per game.

Team is just a mess.

Exercise in wack a mole with our shitty d-men.

Nurse is a disaster for about three weeks and Bouchard finds his game a bit. Then when Nurse finds his game Bouchard collapses. Next week Bouchard will probably be lights out, then Barrie will implode for a few weeks. Then Barrie will find his game, and Ceci will blow up.

Every single one of the players on our defense is prone to pissing up 10 bell errors for games/weeks at a time. They just rotate when they choose to do it so that no matter what we have at least one d-man on the ice capable of blowing up a game entirely on their own. So frustrating.
 

SwedishFire

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Mar 3, 2011
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It's really no surprise the oilers do this every year. They need to make it as hard as possible to get into the playoffs... if they don't turn it around right now, it might be a lost cause.
Or the actual importance of E Kane, the guy has been injured a long time now. The diffrence of puljujärvi/yamamoto and E Kane in top 6 is noticble. He nees to come back, so the usefulness of yamamoto/pulju really shows... that they should 3rd line. Once Kane coming back, I betbthere is a trade. The caplimit says that. I hope not Järnmark down is the happening. That would be so Holland.

Im actually fine with getting Gudas here.
Gudas - Bouchard pairing would be something.
 

SwedishFire

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Mar 3, 2011
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A lot of good posts and honesty on this last page. These two quotes truly tell the tale of a sad sack of a team.
Need leadership. Need 200 foot games from the leaders or guess what...you don't win!

Everyone here knows I'm not a Drai fan. I've toned it way down. Its not that I dislike him. Its not that I dont see his unbelievable talent. Its that I cant turn the other cheek to his flybys and his giveaways. McDavid is guilty as well to a lesser extent, but still guilty. When these guys play the right way, Nurse included, we will win more than we lose even with the roster we have and Kane hurt. Until then, we are a .450 team that frustrates the piss out of all of us that care about them.
The golden boys syndrome. McDavid and Draisaitl has always been their juniorteams golden boys, no1 scorers. Offensive leaders with prime task to maximize their natrual offensibe talents. Other lesser talented guys doing the defensive hard work.
They had never been really forced to do that job, working their way up. They feel that the team wont score if they dont do it.
Both could use their hockey intelligence to keep the puck out from dangerzones.
And they could help rookies to flourish. Leave Jesse at a 3rd line, and give McDavid, Nuge amd E Kane Holloway to learn tiips and tricks, and hows to take out the best of his talent in NHL.
They have only one forward rookie, so give him right mentorship and situations to start grow into his NHL form.

Anz yes, trade Jesse now. Oilers cant have pulju AND Yamamoto as top6 answers.
 

McHelpus

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Jan 16, 2021
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Or the actual importance of E Kane, the guy has been injured a long time now. The diffrence of puljujärvi/yamamoto and E Kane in top 6 is noticble. He nees to come back, so the usefulness of yamamoto/pulju really shows... that they should 3rd line. Once Kane coming back, I betbthere is a trade. The caplimit says that. I hope not Järnmark down is the happening. That would be so Holland.

Im actually fine with getting Gudas here.
Gudas - Bouchard pairing would be something.
I dont think they have another month of mediocre play for Kane to come back. This basically last year all over again... Holland waiting way to long to make a change while we fall in the standings.

Isn't Gudas a RHD tho?
 

SwedishFire

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Mar 3, 2011
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I dont think they have another month of mediocre play for Kane to come back. This basically last year all over again... Holland waiting way to long to make a change while we fall in the standings.

Isn't Gudas a RHD tho?
Well, maybe he is. Typical. Funny, cause RHD usual is hardrt to get. Now Oilers has their quantum of it.

Hillarious if Toronto actually would be trade partners - LHD for RHD.
I could see Biuchard for a good LHD if crises araise.
 

McHelpus

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Jan 16, 2021
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Well, maybe he is. Typical. Funny, cause RHD usual is hardrt to get. Now Oilers has their quantum of it.

Hillarious if Toronto actually would be trade partners - LHD for RHD.
I could see Biuchard for a good LHD if crises araise.
Nurse - Ceci
Chychrun - Gudas
Kulak - Barrie

How much will this cost?
 
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SupremeTeam16

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May 31, 2013
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There's only like 5 coaches in the league (world?) that can do the whole "give me some OK players and I'll squeeze every drop out of them with my system" type of thing.

Torts, Sutter, maybe Babcock, maybe Trotz, maybe Brindamour.

Even like Brindamour said "f*** this" with Bear and press boxed him, lol, the Oilers were playing this player on their top pairing.

Cody Ceci plays top pair in Edmonton, bottom pair in Pittsburgh and Toronto ... tells you a lot.
I’d argue that there are plenty of people out there who apply this line of thinking to varying degrees of success and situation.

Cooper, Sullivan, Bowness, Montgomery, St Louis looks on his way.

I look at the situation and think to myself “are we getting the most out of this group?” And the answer is clearly no, in fact top to bottom just about every player is capable of more, even our superstars could be more effective. Now the next question is why? I think a good amount of it has to do with poor systems play but the overarching issue to me isn’t a lack of player ability it is and for the most part always has been a lack of work ethic, focus and accountability.

Until you start addressing these issues it really doesn’t matter what upgrades you make personnel wise because they are likely to just come here and be dragged down by poor systems play and a culture that doesn’t value the pillars of success such has hard work, accountability and attention to detail.
I think of a team like a car. A lot of times you waste money on new parts when really all you had to do was adjust air/fuel ratio or add tension to a belt. Maybe you’ve got tires with with 75% tread that’s aren’t performing well, could be they need to be rotated or your car needs an alignment or maybe they just need a little air. You can replace all 4 tires with brand new ones and the performance will get better for awhile but if you don’t fix the underlying issues then it won’t be long until those tires are underperforming as well.

I absolutely think we can upgrade defensively and this year is the time to do it but the more important issue is improving what we have in the meantime.
 
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ToeMcDrag83

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Aug 25, 2010
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Team blowing 2 goal leads with the same consistency as Vancouver at the start of the year.
To absolute mid teams.
Sad to watch. Legendary season being put up by McDavid, one for the ages and we can't muster average run support on keeping the GA's down.
 

MessierII

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Aug 10, 2011
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There is no reason on Earth though to be operating a man on man scheme against Seattle. I could possibly see it to cover superstars but oh wait, Seattle don't have any. So that we're operating a scheme that services Seattle by providing breaks in coverage and out of position situations and we're doing that straight off draws just so they can work their set plays. Because thats really how Seattle can score. we gave Seattle two garbage goals just by having our D vacate position around net. We gave up 3 goals in total where our D positioning was not enough around the net.

I'm a punter and I'm seeing this.
I can’t remember for the life of me if we ran this last year or if Tippett did. One of them used a zone defense one used man to man I can’t remover who did what now though. I’m not sure how much of it is the scheme or how much of it is individuals just not having great instincts around the net. Probably a bit of both. Broberg in the D zone reminds me of young nurse where he just doesn’t know where to be. Nurse has improved drastically over the years but it will never be a strength.
 

Soundwave

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Mar 1, 2007
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I’d argue that there are plenty of people out there who apply this line of thinking to varying degrees of success and situation.

Cooper, Sullivan, Bowness, Montgomery, St Louis looks on his way.

I look at the situation and think to myself “are we getting the most out of this group?” And the answer is clearly no, in fact top to bottom just about every player is capable of more, even our superstars could be more effective. Now the next question is why? I think a good amount of it has to do with poor systems play but the overarching issue to me isn’t a lack of player ability it is and for the most part always has been a lack of work ethic, focus and accountability.

Until you start addressing these issues it really doesn’t matter what upgrades you make personnel wise because they are likely to just come here and be dragged down by poor systems play and a culture that doesn’t value the pillars of success such has hard work, accountability and attention to detail.
I think of a team like a car. A lot of times you waste money on new parts when really all you had to do was adjust air/fuel ratio or add tension to a belt. Maybe you’ve got tires with with 75% tread that’s aren’t performing well, could be they need to be rotated or your car needs an alignment or maybe they just need a little air. You can replace all 4 tires with brand new ones and the performance will get better for awhile but if you don’t fix the underlying issues then it won’t be long until those tires are underperforming as well.

I absolutely think we can upgrade defensively and this year is the time to do it but the more important issue is improving what we have in the meantime.

The problem with this is like it's been how many coaches now? 4? 5?

The core issue is the roster is poorly built by bad management. If it was one or two coaches struggling, OK, but when it's like 4 or 5 guys that are in the same quicksand, that's a roster build problem.

Like yeah a Torts or Sutter or Babs could tear into them and get them to play structured for a while too, but even then the poor roster build would probably rear it's ugly head eventually too.
 

SupremeTeam16

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The problem with this is like it's been how many coaches now? 4? 5?

The core issue is the roster is poorly built by bad management. If it was one or two coaches struggling, OK, but when it's like 4 or 5 guys that are in the same quicksand, that's a roster build problem.

Like yeah a Torts or Sutter or Babs could tear into them and get them to play structured for a while too, but even then the poor roster build would probably rear its ugly head eventually too.
And none of them could ever foster a culture of accountability. We’ve been plagued by the same issues for years. Not starting on time, not winning at home, not adjusting to hold leads. This teams game has been run and fun for years now and they’ve barely ever attempted to alter how they play to put a focus on structured defensive hockey. In the brief moments where they have made adjustments, we’ve seen gains but they always end up abandoning it in the name of scoring.

I honestly think it has a lot to do with appeasement and playing the way our best players feel most comfortable playing. They want to be the difference makers and the best way they know how to make a difference is being offensive. They’re swords they like to slide, slash and inflict as much damage as possible. But just cause you have a really good sword doesn’t mean you throw down your shield.

If they implemented strong defensive structure and the staff and players adhered to it and held themselves and each other accountable we would see defensive improvements individually and as a group.

If you don’t do that then upgrading the roster is meaningless and wasteful.
 
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Soundwave

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And none of them could ever foster a culture of accountability. We’ve been plagued by the same issues for years. Not starting on time, not winning at home, not adjusting to hold leads. This teams game has been run and fun for years now and they’ve barely ever attempted to alter how they play to put a focus on structured defensive hockey. In the brief moments where they have made adjustments, we’ve seen gains but they always end up abandoning it in the name of scoring.

I honestly think it has a lot to do with appeasement and playing the way our best players feel most comfortable playing. They want to be the difference makers and the best way they know how to make a difference is being offensive. They’re swords they like to slide, slash and inflict as much damage as possible. But just cause you have a really good sword doesn’t mean you throw down your shield.

If they implemented strong defensive structure and the staff and players adhered to it and held themselves and each other accountable we would see defensive improvements individually and as a group.

If you don’t do that then upgrading the roster is meaningless and wasteful.

I don't really buy this, they just have poorly built rosters.

McDavid + Draisaitl + 16-17 Oilers were top 10 in the NHL for lowest goals against in 16-17.

What's the difference? Culture? No. It's roster.

Their blue line that year was

Klefbom Larsson
Sekera Russell
Nurse Benning

Talbot

That's actually a decent looking blueline with no one playing that far above where they should be (Nurse all the way down at no.5 D). Russell was younger then and an OK no-nonsense no.4. And it's not even like this blue line is anything *great*, but at least it was competent.

That's not a culture change. That's just a roster thing.

Starting games slow is a by product of poorly built rosters and coaching staffs afraid to have hard practises because they don't want to wear down McDavid/Drai/Nurse any more because they know they have to over play them in games to make up for the garbage they have to work with. You play how you prepare.

It's hard to outcoach poor management. If Tippet + McLellan + Hitchcock + Woodcroft all couldn't do it then you're really asking for a miracle worker more than a coach.

Effectively we've had Klefbom + Larsson + Sekera + Russell out and Barrie + Bouchard + Ceci + Broberg take their place ... not one of these 4 guys is really ever been known for good defensive play over their career and it's clear from Bouchard and Broberg they're not really anywhere close to shut down defencemen at this stage of their development.

So basically we replaced 4 guys who could play some reasonable level of D with 4 guys who really aren't good at actual defending. Can we really be that shocked with the result?
 
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SupremeTeam16

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I don't really buy this, they just have poorly built rosters.

McDavid + Draisaitl + 16-17 Oilers were top 10 in the NHL for lowest goals against in 16-17.

What's the difference? Culture? No. It's roster.

Their blue line that year was

Klefbom Larsson
Sekera Russell
Nurse Benning

Talbot

That's actually a decent looking blueline with no one playing that far above where they should be (Nurse all the way down at no.5 D). Russell was younger then and an OK no-nonsense no.4. And it's not even like this blue line is anything *great*, but at least it was competent.

That's not a culture change. That's just a roster thing.

Starting games slow is a by product of poorly built rosters and coaching staffs afraid to have hard practises because they don't want to wear down McDavid/Drai/Nurse any more because they know they have to over play them in games to make up for the garbage they have to work with. You play how you prepare.

It's hard to outcoach poor management. If Tippet + McLellan + Hitchcock + Woodcroft all couldn't do it then you're really asking for a miracle worker more than a coach.
Was that the year they had a goalie have an outlier career year playing more games than any other Oilers goalie ever had?

Like every other team edmontons management is constantly having holes to fill on their team but unlike many other teams they’ve had some shit luck and unforeseen circumstance like losing two of your best defenders and most valuable assets in back to back years and not being able to get anything in return.

Is it Hollands fault that his best defender in Klefbom had his career ended in his prime? That’s a pretty devastating turn of events when you’re roster building.

Is it Hollands fault that Larsson’s dad died in Edmonton and as a result the guy didn’t want to re-sign?

Both those events severely hindered their ability to build their roster in multiple ways beyond just losing two very good defenders for nothing in back to back years. If Klefbom doesn’t get hurt then their contract strategy regarding Nurse likely pans out instead of him being thrust into top duties in a shortened anomaly season. But Klefbom got hurt and Larsson bailed and Holland’s leverage evaporated.

If the league actually followed their own protocol and we had an extra 3M to play with this year because of the Keith trade that would of made a big difference but again the Oilers got the short end there.

I’m not absolving Holland completely because he’s been far from perfect but there’s been considerable headwinds for management trying to fill all the holes.
 
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Yuke

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Jan 15, 2020
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Anybody thats trying to look like toasted old Bono deserves what they get.

But the rest of us probably don't deserve this.

Cripes with this crap home ice performance the Oilers should still be playing in Closed Rexall. But the Katz agreement prevents that too. It could be good, pretend its the another "road" arena.
This post reeks of jealousy
I can’t remember for the life of me if we ran this last year or if Tippett did. One of them used a zone defense one used man to man I can’t remover who did what now though. I’m not sure how much of it is the scheme or how much of it is individuals just not having great instincts around the net. Probably a bit of both. Broberg in the D zone reminds me of young nurse where he just doesn’t know where to be. Nurse has improved drastically over the years but it will never be a strength.
The defensive play by Broberg in mention is similar to a Dman pinching. The winger is to cover. It is common.
 

bucks_oil

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Aug 25, 2005
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The culture problem on this team stems from there being no accountability to the top end players. It has been this way since the Oilers drafted Hall. Hall/Eberle/Nuge/McDavid/Draisaitl all can do whatever they want without consequence. lay up a pizza on the power play, opponent goes down and scores. No problem stay out there and then go right back out after. Unable to backcheck due to staying on too long in the offensive zone. Its ok no worries, you will get them next time. Then on the other hand, Ryan, Yamamoto, Pulijarvi (just about anyone) does the exact same thing, and they get stapled to the bench. I get that McDavid and Drai should have some leeway, as without them the Oilers are in serious trouble,
McDavid has 73 points and is +4
Leon has 55 points and is +3
Tage Thompson has 55 points and is +14

On the Saturday Panel, they highlighted JT Miller not backchecking and a bad change going slowly to the bench. Bieska said I can't even defend that. Honestly that has got to be how the bottom 6 on this Oilers team feel.

I have never played any sports at an elite level such as the NHL, but I can tell you I have always played better and been more engaged when I am getting regular/consistent shifts then when I am sitting on the sidelines for long stretches at a time. The Oilers bottom 6 barely play any minutes and then when they do, they likely play scared as if they make a mistake they will be playing even less. Except JP cause for some reason, he is stapled on the top line.

When McDavid and Draisaitl start playing 18-22 minutes per game and playing at both ends of the ice, backchecking as hard as they do when they have the have the puck on their stick or want the puck on their stick. That is when this team will be a contender.

The Oilers bottoms 6 is not great, but I feel if they were not playing afraid and getting regular consistent minutes, they would be more productive. There are definitely holes, but I think the culture and Ice time is a major factor. Oilers down by a couple goals 10 minutes left= Leon and conner playing about 7-8 of those 10 minutes. Everyone on that team knows it. Even if Ryan is having the game of his life, he likely won't see the ice in that situation.

I had stuff to get done last night, so I only had the game going on in the background and wasn't watching intently. So, I did not notice the play in question here. However, there are times when the defenseman should stay on his man even up to the blue line if he has the puck. Typically, this is in a man-on-man type system. When Bouchard follows his man up top, someone else should be covering that lone man in front of the net.

You actually see this happen a fair bit when teams are trying to contain McDavid. If the defenseman just lets him go and circle around by the blue line and cut to the middle across the blue line, McDavid will have too much time and space to make a play before the forward picks him up. Or if the D and the winger try to switch, it likely leaves someone open while the defenseman tries to get to him, not to mention that winger is probably flat footed already at the top of the circle and McD is going to burn him if they switch. So, when that is the coverage/system teammates should rotate the winger on the side he is up needs to drop down and add coverage down low, with the other D and the Center. That said I am not really sure what Woody's system is so no idea if Bouch was doing the right thing or not.

Thanks for the feedback...

I've usually seen the forward switch off near the top of the circles, so the D-man can get back.

And you are right, on the play in question, both Broberg and Bouch were pulled away from the net, leaving Nuge (and by then Broberg) in no-mans land marking nobody.

We are missing a general or two back there.
 

bucks_oil

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Aug 25, 2005
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I played D at a decent level. If you’re running man on man coverage you try and stay with your guy but if he’s pulling you way out of position you switch with a teammate which you would just verbally communicate on the ice. Man on man sounds simple but It can be kind of complicated in terms of when you switch but generally you want to to stay with your guy as long as you remain on the defensive side of the play. Especially as a D man you want to be on the right side of the puck pretty much all the time in your zone.

Thanks for the reply... That's how I've always directed traffic too and it isn't just the D, but all guys have to be goal-side of their man. You switch when it makes sense to do so.... like for example if someone is pulling a D-man to the top of the blue line.

In any case, Broberg faded off, presumably after he realized where he was and didn't make much effort to get back to the blue-paint. It was both overly puck-focused and lazy... bad combo on any play.
 

slaman

McOilers Fan
Oct 22, 2010
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Toronto
A lot of great discussion in this thread about what's going on.

I'm aligned with many opinions in here:
* Drai is not fully committed to D, and has been really bad with the give aways
* Evander Kane's injury really shows his importance in the top 6
* Key players have really dropped off: Bouchard, MacLeod, Ceci, Campbell
* Players are being played way above their proper spots: Janmark, PJ, Yammy
* PK (largely due to goaltending) has been horrific

However, I disagree with other observations:
* Coaching is not a problem - we've changed coaches way too many times and it would be way more disruptive to change
* McDavid plays D - he's not a Selke winner, but does not give up in the D zone. He's not the person I want changing their focus from offense to defense
* Holloway and Kostin are in the right spots for development and skill
* Skinner is a massive bright spot and one none of us expected would shine so early
* We've got an all time high PP - this is an accomplishment given how good we've been over the years
 

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