GDT: OIL vs AVS (7:00PM/SNW)

[Raab]

Holy crow--you guys seem jaded beyond belief. I don't necessarily blame you given you're all emotionally-invested in this team which has generally been the worst in the NHL since the '06 run. Still, there's no way this is the worst NHL team of all-time given they may have been the single greatest NHL dynasty in history. The rebuild has been failing since approximately the first go-round. That's it. I think the winds will probably shift in the next few years. Too much talent will have been accumulated through the draft and the environment will shift accordingly. Veterans will be picked up / step up along the way in that process. Rebuilds aren't necessarily successful right away / for the first several years. It's just the way it goes for some teams sometimes. If it truly doesn't pan out down the road the public outcry will be even worse and Katz and all the rest will have to leave and sell the team. What we have now is certainly better than having no NHL team in Edmonton for Pete's sake.

When the OBC is finally turfed and competent management brought in I'll be happy. Until then I'd rather have no team in Edmonton. If I had it my way we'd stop the Arena development until Lowe, MacT, and Howson were fired. IMO if Lowe had brought in any other manager besides MacT the fans would have been a lot more tolerant of the losing right now. With the arrogance that was shown in his hiring press conference MacT and Lowe made themselves public enemy number one to any hard core fan of the team.

 

[oilers_guy_eddie]

My own take is MacT did this to weaken the squad so that his Buddies coaching record doesn't end up looking so bad in comparison to Nelson who had this team rolling. Don't put it beyond this team as they seem to have never wanted to have admiral Nelson at the helm.

Wellll that seems a little too conspiracy-minded for me.

But speaking of our ex-coaches, NBCSN has a documentary about Southampton FC. I haven't watched it yet, but here's an excerpt from the blurb:

Despite that, it is impossible not to be charmed by the town. Southampton FC have been one of English football’s most romantic narratives in 2014. A small terrier of a club who have convinced themselves of their ability to run with the big dogs.

That conviction is not ill-placed, nor is it built on alchemy. An investment in long-term youth development, a meticulous training strategy built by coaching guru Les Reed, and a scouting system that Billy Beane would be proud of, combine with a value-driven culture fostered by former-NHL-coach-turned-club-chairman Ralph Krueger to create an environment that is rare for a Premier League team: one where optimism and strategy have been fused, and every department is encouraged to innovate in search of tiny competitive edges that can close the gap between Southampton and the petrodollar-fueled super clubs above.

Too bad the Oilers don't have somebody who could instill a culture like that, huh?

 

[Replacement*]

Wellll that seems a little too conspiracy-minded for me.

But speaking of our ex-coaches, NBCSN has a documentary about Southampton FC. I haven't watched it yet, but here's an excerpt from the blurb:



Too bad the Oilers don't have somebody who could instill a culture like that, huh?

I'm in a similar industry to Krueger and very aware of his tecniques, approaches. Which led me to be very surprised at his hire because this guy is undoutedly punching several weight classes higher in his thought process and I wondered how guys like Lowe or MacT would even get it. Indeed they didn't. They didn't understand Kreuger. kreuger also brought his stuff down a peg to communicate clearly to the players. Perhaps he didn't speak to management to dumb down the message at all. Probably felt he didn't have to at that point with management level.

Krueger always struck me as too smart for this org.

Its too bad indeed.

Back to my post you've been through the Comrie saga, the Souray saga, you already know this org is capable of being spiteful, vengeful, and not much conspiracy required in that context. Also we know that journalists have been fodder for critiquing this org. Its an insular org that has never taken well to criticism. If Perron did critique some of the golden ducks of this org that wasn't going to go over well.
Nelson for some reason has never really been the guy the org wanted to pull up here. That's mysterious in itself. Its like an org full of incompetents that is aware enough that a guy could be too good. Can't have that in land of incompetence.

 

[Hippasus]

People are making comments in respect of what the team is now. Now what it was a long long time ago in the 80's. Most people on this board weren't even around then. For a whole generation the Oilers have been abysmal. A trainwreck. Even in 05-06 that very brief success was immediately preceeded and followed by a team that was not very good to terrible. Since 06 we've been by far the worst franchise and it isn't even close.

I've been with this team since the WHA and this is the worst its ever been. Jim Matheson, the local scribe who has followed the team throughout says its the worst ever and hard to follow. This is an insider that's had his meal ticket from the team saying its awful.

Theres actual protests in Edmonton decrying how bad this team is and begging a change in management.

Maybe protests and the like are a little premature. Edmonton fans can be rabid and hardcore sometimes. For the record I don't like the constant hiring and firing of coaches either. Based on oilers_guy_eddie's post directly above, it seems like a real shame they let Krueger go.

I dont think you should be lumping mew in with the other 2 posters because I dont think the team would have left without Katz nor do I think things would be better if it had.

That said how can you overlook the items on my post and insist that this re-reuild is headed in the right direction.

Do you really believe that this team is only slightly off their rebuild plan?

Talk about spin.

My apologies. I shouldn't have insinuated that about you. RE: management though, I think I addressed your point. Too much talent, or the right talent, will simply be accumulated at some point, with or without the current management. Also, the players have to held accountable too. I don't know the degree to which management is or has been the problem. Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw with lack of chemistry, draft picks not panning out, etc. I'm just going to try to be patient, and probably watch the team in moderation since I have a lot on my plate right now.

When the OBC is finally turfed and competent management brought in I'll be happy. Until then I'd rather have no team in Edmonton. If I had it my way we'd stop the Arena development until Lowe, MacT, and Howson were fired. IMO if Lowe had brought in any other manager besides MacT the fans would have been a lot more tolerant of the losing right now. With the arrogance that was shown in his hiring press conference MacT and Lowe made themselves public enemy number one to any hard core fan of the team.

I missed the press conference. How were they arrogant?

 

[McAsuno]

Maybe protests and the like are a little premature. Edmonton fans can be rabid and hardcore sometimes.

My apologies. I shouldn't have insinuated that about you. RE: management though, I think I addressed your point. Too much talent, or the right talent, will simply be accumulated at some point, with or without the current management. Also, the players have to held accountable too. I don't know the degree to which management is or has been the problem. Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw with lack of chemistry, draft picks not panning out, etc. I'm just going to try to be patient, and probably watch the team in moderation since I have a lot on my plate right now.

I missed the press conference. How were they arrogant?

Lowe's arrogance comes out ten fold.

 

[Hippasus]

Lowe's arrogance comes out ten fold.

Hard to argue with that from the video, but it was a year and a half ago. Lowe is defensive and overcompensating. They say they're three years into the rebuild, which also seems farfetched. But MacT says basically the same thing in a more articulate and even-keeled manner.

 

[sepHF]

Holy crow--you guys seem jaded beyond belief. I don't necessarily blame you given you're all emotionally-invested in this team which has generally been the worst in the NHL since the '06 run. Still, there's no way this is the worst NHL team of all-time given they may have been the single greatest NHL dynasty in history. The rebuild has been failing since approximately the first go-round. That's it. I think the winds will probably shift in the next few years. Too much talent will have been accumulated through the draft and the environment will shift accordingly. Veterans will be picked up / step up along the way in that process. Rebuilds aren't necessarily successful right away / for the first several years. It's just the way it goes for some teams sometimes. If it truly doesn't pan out down the road the public outcry will be even worse and Katz and all the rest will have to leave and sell the team. What we have now is certainly better than having no NHL team in Edmonton for Pete's sake.

Here's the problem : we've been hearing this for years and years and years now, and somehow the team is just getting worse.

There is literally NO progression. Everyone is worse today then they were at this time last year. EVERYONE except maybe 1 or 2 players.

Hiring MacTavish as Tambellinis replacement just shows you how fundamentally broken this organization is. They're hopeless.

 

[McAsuno]

Hard to argue with that from the video, but it was a year and a half ago. Lowe is defensive and overcompensating. They say they're three years into the rebuild, which also seems farfetched. But MacT says basically the same thing in a more articulate and even-keeled manner.

They recycle the same crap every year. Nothing changes with the old boys club.

 

[Replacement*]

Hard to argue with that from the video, but it was a year and a half ago. Lowe is defensive and overcompensating. They say they're three years into the rebuild, which also seems farfetched. But MacT says basically the same thing in a more articulate and even-keeled manner.

This is not a time specific thing with Lowe. This is ongoing. This is the GM that tried to make Comrie pay out of a contract (an un precedented stunt that cost us a deal for Perry at the time because Comrie and his agent of course balked and said "screw you". Lowe also oversaw Tambo screwing over Sheldon Souray and refusing to allow him to play out his contract. This due to Souray raising concerns in the org which were later admitted and realized by the org which made the changes Souray voiced concern about. But the Oilers essentially fired Souray, described him as a cancer, and diminished his professional standing and worth. They absolutely maligned him. Lowe had parting shots at Ryan Smyth before dealing him for Robert Nilson (a shot in itself, Smyth was a multi year 30some goal scorer at the time)

Lowe has been an ahole here for around a dozen years.

 

[Hippasus]

Here's the problem : we've been hearing this for years and years and years now, and somehow the team is just getting worse.

There is literally NO progression. Everyone is worse today then they were at this time last year. EVERYONE except maybe 1 or 2 players.

Hiring MacTavish as Tambellinis replacement just shows you how fundamentally broken this organization is. They're hopeless.

MacTavish I like for the most part. He's well-spoken and knows about balance through a line-up, having size and grit, etc. regardless of whether the team is built for north-south hockey.

They recycle the same crap every year. Nothing changes with the old boys club.

This is not a time specific thing with Lowe. This is ongoing. This is the GM that tried to make Comrie pay out of a contract (an un precedented stunt that cost us a deal for Perry at the time because Comrie and his agent of course balked and said "screw you". Lowe also oversaw Tambo screwing over Sheldon Souray and refusing to allow him to play out his contract. This due to Souray raising concerns in the org which were later admitted and realized by the org which made the changes Souray voiced concern about. But the Oilers essentially fired Souray, described him as a cancer, and diminished his professional standing and worth. They absolutely maligned him. Lowe had parting shots at Ryan Smyth before dealing him for Robert Nilson (a shot in itself, Smyth was a multi year 30some goal scorer at the time)

Lowe has been an ahole here for around a dozen years.

I think the Edmonton fans have been a little impatient and demanding for a quick and sure-footed rebuild, but sometimes that doesn't work out. The old management from years past has gotten defensive and self-righteous, and it's sort of a vicious circle phenomenon. However, the fans should also take some responsibility and reign it in a bit in the future.

I acknowledge that there has been regression this year and at times, but that is to be expected for some rebuilds. The constant turnover of coaches can't be good for player development and does bespeak some mismanagement. The players need some continuity, vision for the future, and pride and energy from coaches and management. But the calling for the head of MacT at this point is premature. I think we need a little time, and MacT has shown some willingness to shake things up with the player personnel. That was probably necessary at this point.

RE: the Comrie saga: they asked him to give money back from the contract they made with him?

I seem to remember they played hardball with Smyth the first time around. That's unfortunate too. But it's a two-way street.

RE: Souray: I was very vocal on this board about them wrongly throwing him under the bus when that played out. That has been unfortunate too.

Katz should get involved and maybe ask Lowe to respectfully step-down to shake things up on the management side of things as well. But I'm not behind closed doors and I don't know if Lowe was really the culprit in all these matters. The consensus around here sure seems to be that he is most responsible.

I also just feel bad about having to cut ties with all the guys from the dynasty-era. But at this point, some of that may be necessary.

 

[Replacement*]

MacTavish I like for the most part. He's well-spoken and knows about balance through a line-up, having size and grit, etc. regardless of whether the team is built for north-south hockey.



I think the Edmonton fans have been a little impatient and demanding for a quick and sure-footed rebuild, but sometimes that doesn't work out. The old management from years past has gotten defensive and self-righteous, and it's sort of a vicious circle phenomenon. However, the fans should also take some responsibility and reign it in a bit in the future.

I acknowledge that there has been regression this year and at times, but that is to be expected for some rebuilds. The constant turnover of coaches can't be good for player development and does bespeak some mismanagement. The players need some continuity, vision for the future, and pride and energy from coaches and management. But the calling for the head of MacT at this point is premature. I think we need a little time, and MacT has shown some willingness to shake things up with the player personnel. That was probably necessary at this point.

RE: the Comrie saga: they asked him to give money back from the contract they made with him?

I seem to remember they played hardball with Smyth the first time around. That's unfortunate too. But it's a two-way street.

RE: Souray: I was very vocal on this board about them wrongly throwing him under the bus when that played out. That has been unfortunate too.

Katz should get involved and maybe ask Lowe to respectfully step-down to shake things up on the management side of things as well. But I'm not behind closed doors and I don't know if Lowe was really the culprit in all these matters. The consensus around here sure seems to be that he is most responsible.

I also just feel bad about having to cut ties with all the guys from the dynasty-era. But at this point, some of that may be necessary.

Thanks for the exchange and good discussion. Katz has done the opposite. Backed Lowe in the face of public, and even media related assertions that he should be cut.

Far as Smyth the hardball is business. The way it is. But the team by then had overvaluated Horc, and Hemsky's contribution. Smyth was the one that scored the goals. If I'm Smyth I can't see making less $ than those two.

Comrie? Yeah, Lowe was wanting a 250K stipend from Comrie to get out of the contract. In Pro Sports I haven't even heard of a similar precedent. That was ugly. Also the combination of Nichols and Lowe commenting on Pronger and Mrs Pronger was entire inappropriate and set this team back to the stone age for years. At that point any married free agent that had a say wasn't stepping foot in Edmonton. The views expressed by management during that saga were deplorable.

I disagree that the fans should reign it in. The length of ineptitude and abysmal performance by this org in unprecedented save for expansion clubs starting from scratch. Worse, the Oilers management decided to go this route in a hockey mad market. Calgary realized the folly in that and refused to do it.

 

[Hippasus]

Thanks for the exchange and good discussion. Katz has done the opposite. Backed Lowe in the face of public, and even media related assertions that he should be cut.

Far as Smyth the hardball is business. The way it is. But the team by then had overvaluated Horc, and Hemsky's contribution. Smyth was the one that scored the goals. If I'm Smyth I can't see making less $ than those two.

Comrie? Yeah, Lowe was wanting a 250K stipend from Comrie to get out of the contract. In Pro Sports I haven't even heard of a similar precedent. That was ugly. Also the combination of Nichols and Lowe commenting on Pronger and Mrs Pronger was entire inappropriate and set this team back to the stone age for years. At that point any married free agent that had a say wasn't stepping foot in Edmonton. The views expressed by management during that saga were deplorable.

I disagree that the fans should reign it in. The length of ineptitude and abysmal performance by this org in unprecedented save for expansion clubs starting from scratch. Worse, the Oilers management decided to go this route in a hockey mad market. Calgary realized the folly in that and refused to do it.

Thank you and likewise. I appreciate the comprehensive perspective and details. I am not sure this protracted drought is intentional though. They threw in the towel with some of the recent trades when it became apparent they weren't going to get out of the basement this season and to insure drafting Eichel or someone. A tank job at this point is bad PR with the fan base, but I don't think it'll hurt the team in the long run. You are right that this is a longer rebuild than usual. The following article is a good analysis and would seem to suggest that the Oilers rebuild is just starting to be classified as below average. Where they actually fall should be determined in the next couple years. Whether it is truly a failure remains to be seen, but I don't think it will be. The situation is serious but not hopeless. I think there are some teams that will end up being deemed to have fared worse in recent history.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/articles/nhl/how-long-does-an-nhl-rebuild-take.aspx