Speculation: Offseason Thread #10?: Whats the plan, Stan?

[bernmeister]

...

There are a lot of people who are OK with who Stepan is.

He can be just a 25 goal scoring center and still be incredibly valuable to us despite the dreaded NTC. And that's due to his overall play.

As I said, yes he has value, I just believe he is worth more to us in trade. Sell high.
While you still can. It is an NMC by the way, which is worse.

He creates more chances for the team, finishes more chances, and is more productive than CK will ever be. In all three zones of the ice. This is a FACT. Not an OPINION.

He is not more productive, You ignore the hits, the grunt work, the forcing the puck into the zone with his speed, and that he alone has to go into the crease cause not one other person on the entire team can cut that mustard.

As to "is more productive than CK will ever be" that is an arrogant boast which ignores and dismisses CK upside, while not speaking to the truth that Stepan has plateaued.

You've been wanting to trade Stepan prior to his new contract.

Guilty as charged, and if we had moved Stepan, and Girardi, etc earlier we would likely be better off.

You just don't like him. And that's fine, you're entitled to that opinion.

Not true, I never rated him a bum.
Just believe we have to sell high and hold on to potential, and DS has plateaued.

But it doesn't make it right. You always talk about having an open mind, but it's been completely sealed with any discussion involving Stepan. As well as CK. Practice what you preach, brother. People will respect you more for it.

I rest on my analysis and recommendations.
I don't mind be judged OBJECTIVELY after the fact when the results are in.
Feel free to do so provided it is accurate, objective, and not out of context, otherwise... don't go there.

Brains wins over Brawn, Bern. Even the Great one said so. And here are some of his quotes which should mean something to an old timer like yourself:

I couldn't beat people with my strength; I don't have a hard shot; I'm not the quickest skater in the league. My eyes and my mind have to do most of the work.

Ninety percent of hockey is mental and the other half is physical.

there is of course an exception always that proves the rule.
But generally, slower, weaker, less talented players do not defeat reciprocal counterparts.

You would have multiples if Kreider got a NMC.

I am on record, my policy is NOBODY should ever get NMCs again.

Again, you've been trying to trade Stepan since you existed on these boards. Complaining about his 'status' and 'contract' is just another failed attempt on your behalf. It's baloney. You wanted him traded after his rookie season.

I could see he would give us more in trade and long term value than short term production.
Your refusal to see or admit this is on you. Not me.

And the age is relevant. If it wasn't, then we can start comparing the potential of a 31 year old versus a 19 year old.

They are 10 months apart in age. Period.

Again, when I say older vets it is a catch all for senior contracts that are too high to keep. Your efforts to misrepresent/distort are rejected.

Only my guy is clearly, head and shoulders better than yours. On his worst day. And his statistics are proof of that.

believe that if ya want.
There IS demand for Stepan, but much more for Kreider....
why's that?

no, don't answer
enough with this out of context misrepresentation

 

[aufheben]

The only personalized Rangers jersey I own is a Chris Kreider jersey, but holy **** has he become overrated.

Without trying to be rude, couldn't all this **** go in a Kreider thread so the rest of us don't have to to trawl through a few pages to see what else is going on?

Probably not a bad idea.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1991587

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

You're not sure. You're hoping because you love him as a player. We all feel that way when we fall in love with a player.

Ehm I don't love Kreider. Sure, with my username it seems that way, but I picked it because it was funny. If we can trade him for a good return, I am all for it. But Kreider can still develop and become a better player. All too often have we given up on players too early.

 

[bernmeister]

Without trying to be rude, couldn't all this **** go in a Kreider thread so the rest of us don't have to to trawl through a few pages to see what else is going on?

I apologize mike14, but this much mudslinging could not be allowed unchallenged.
will try to minimize the need to reply

 

[bernmeister]

I didn't see who started the Stepan 25 goal stuff but I do not think Stepan has ever scored 25 goals in a season. I think this season was his career high at 22 goals.

Believe it or not, that was prob me. Guilty as charged
I didn't check on a hard # and gave him benefit of the doubt.

 

[KreiderHouseRules*]

There are a lot of people who are OK with who Stepan is.

He can be just a 25 goal scoring center and still be incredibly valuable to us despite the dreaded NTC. And that's due to his overall play. He creates more chances for the team, finishes more chances, and is more productive than CK will ever be. In all three zones of the ice. This is a FACT. Not an OPINION.

You've been wanting to trade Stepan prior to his new contract. You just don't like him. And that's fine, you're entitled to that opinion.

But it doesn't make it right. You always talk about having an open mind, but it's been completely sealed with any discussion involving Stepan. As well as CK. Practice what you preach, brother. People will respect you more for it.

Brains wins over Brawn, Bern. Even the Great one said so. And here are some of his quotes which should mean something to an old timer like yourself:

I couldn't beat people with my strength; I don't have a hard shot; I'm not the quickest skater in the league. My eyes and my mind have to do most of the work.

Ninety percent of hockey is mental and the other half is physical.




You would have multiples if Kreider got a NMC. Again, you've been trying to trade Stepan since you existed on these boards. Complaining about his 'status' and 'contract' is just another failed attempt on your behalf. It's baloney. You wanted him traded after his rookie season.

And the age is relevant. If it wasn't, then we can start comparing the potential of a 31 year old versus a 19 year old.

They are 10 months apart in age. Period.




Only my guy is clearly, head and shoulders better than yours. On his worst day. And his statistics are proof of that.

Actually, unless you have some crystal ball that the rest of us don't, that's the exact definition of an OPINION.

How do you know Kreider won't score 30+30 this season and Stepan scores 25+30?

That's incredibly reasonable.

You can say that Stepan's been more consistent and produced more to this point. He's also older and been in the league longer.

Kreider's ceiling is higher and he may out-produce Stepan as early as this season.

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

Actually, unless you have some crystal ball that the rest of us don't, that's the exact definition of an OPINION.

How do you know Kreider won't score 30+30 this season and Stepan scores 25+30?

That's incredibly reasonable.

You can say that Stepan's been more consistent and produced more to this point. He's also older and been in the league longer.

Kreider's ceiling is higher and he may out-produce Stepan as early as this season.

Look at Stepan's trend over his career, and then compare it to Kreiders. 1 is improving. And the other is just, kinda, staying the same. Actually, it's declining a bit.

I don't know if CK will score 30/30. But, I will tell you that even if he does pull that kind of season out of his ass, Dstep will still be the better, more effective and valuable NHL player.

If you were running a business and had an opening, are you giving that position to someone like Kreider? Someone 10 months younger who has failed to meet his expectations over and over and over? Or are you giving it to someone like Stepan, who produces more and has ultimately exceeded his expectations? Only a fool would pick Kreider over Stepan. Especially when you factor the only thing that matters in the real world.

Production.

Not, potential.

Wake me the **** up when CK actually makes a difference.

 

[RempireStateBuilding]

Actually, unless you have some crystal ball that the rest of us don't, that's the exact definition of an OPINION.

How do you know Kreider won't score 30+30 this season and Stepan scores 25+30?

That's incredibly reasonable.

You can say that Stepan's been more consistent and produced more to this point. He's also older and been in the league longer.

Kreider's ceiling is higher and he may out-produce Stepan as early as this season.

It'd be a more reasonable prediction if Kreider ever broke 30 goals or assists before. He has barely come close to doing either yet, and is almost undoubtedly closer to hitting 30 assists before he hits 30 goals. It's not something astronomically out of reach with a dozen lucky bounces across the season, but fact is he has yet to do either. I'd be happy if he keeps breaking 20 goals a season. He still needs to be more engaged more often regardless of whatever points he puts up.

 

[darko]

If you take into account that
Stepan HAS plateaued
Kreider is still developing, w/increasingly better results, it seems
when my recommendations are followed and he is w/Miller/Hayes/Brass/Nash and not Zuc or Stepan
and seems he is mastering certain techniques
and he is doing more than his share of the dirty work
and deals w/too much AV crap
and has less salary

Stepan is whooping 10 moths older than Kreider so if Kreids is still developing so is Stepan.

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

Stepan is whooping 10 moths older than Kreider so if Kreids is still developing so is Stepan.

its because he is balding

 

[Gardner McKay]

Stepan is whooping 10 moths older than Kreider so if Kreids is still developing so is Stepan.

What Bern said is also an opinion. An opinion that he will say is a fact and have no evidence to back it up.

 

[silverfish]

I don't know if any objective work has been done on the subject, but it's pretty widely accepted that players like Kreider take longer to develop than players like Stepan.

 

[Vernie]

No optimal would be AV mostly hands off, no 2 gazillion line changes
and a steady routine of pair w/Hayes or Brass and Miller

Wow...more hyperbole. And emojis, too. Can't argue with them!

If you took a few seconds, you could see that Kreider had a very consistent (and very reliable) linemate for the vast majority of his EV shifts, in Stepan. He's a good C for Kreider, because his nose for the defensive end allows Kreider some leeway.

I'm not sure what "hands off" means, but I doubt you'd fine one coach in the NHL that's completely "hands off" with his players...because that's what coaching is.

Kreider needs more "hands on" that a lot of Rangers, I'd argue, as he can be coached into something more than he currently is...hopefully.

 

[TheTakedown]

I do not believe the part in bold for a second.

it was. Dagoon confirmed offers for Kreider were a Fringe player + a 2nd rounder. That's bad

 

[Irishguy42]

I don't know if any objective work has been done on the subject, but it's pretty wildly accepted that players like Kreider take longer to develop than players like Stepan.

Go on...

 

[chosen]

For what is worth Kreider would have been the 5th best scoring forward on the Penguins this season. 21 goals 43 points is a solid season for a guy that throws 165 hits a season.

He was the 4th best scoring forward on the Rangers, so what's your point?

 

[chosen]

Over the next few seasons we will see who is right -
you claiming he's capped out at upwards of 25, or me saying he will build on this current mark.




I have issued multiple posts responding specifically to your assertions, and you ignore them, repeating your talking points, e.g, about age, when I explained it is seniority impacting salary and not chronological age.

I will not waste precious time re-explaining this to you yet again.
Please read the posts before further comment
thank you

Please point out where you said how we will know when Kreider has hit his plateau and save us both precious time.

By the way, I have never said he's peaked. I've questioned how you know he hasn't.

 

[RangerBoy]

Staal or Klein

 

[NickyFotiu]

it was. Dagoon confirmed offers for Kreider were a Fringe player + a 2nd rounder. That's bad

I like Dagoon but with all due respect that does not come close to making it a fact. If I was Gorton I'm sure I could get a 1st round pick for Kreider in less than an hour. In one day I would have almost all NHL teams showing an interest in him. Its ridiculous to think his 21 goals 45 point 165 hit seasons would not be in demand especially given his age, size, power and speed. Teams would love to have Kreider.

Who are all these NHL teams that have better more productive young power forwards with Kreider's size and speed?

 

[NickyFotiu]

He was the 4th best scoring forward on the Rangers, so what's your point?

You said on a cup contender he would only be a 3rd line forward. That is nonsense. He could play in the top 6 on most teams.

 

[TheTakedown]

I like Dagoon but with all due respect that does not come close to making it a fact. If I was Gorton I'm sure I could get a 1st round pick for Kreider in less than an hour. In one day I would have almost all NHL teams showing an interest in him. Its ridiculous to think his 21 goals 45 point 165 hit seasons would not be in demand especially given his age, size, power and speed. Teams would love to have Kreider.

Who are all these NHL teams that have better more productive young power forwards with Kreider's size and speed?

well then you should recheck what qualifies as "fact" to you.

Dagoon in fact has many sources. BBKers even confirmed that we were completely lowballed at the draft for our players.

Kreider had such an up and down year that a 1st round pick would probably have been the only piece coming back... Kreider is worth more than that. On top of that you had the Rangers sucking to begin with.

His asking price will stay where it is (most likely a top 4 RHD Offensive Defenseman) and we'll probably get more for him as the season starts and moves forward. I wouldn't worry about it right now.

 

[NickyFotiu]

well then you should recheck what qualifies as "fact" to you.

Dagoon in fact has many sources. BBKers even confirmed that we were completely lowballed at the draft for our players.

Kreider had such an up and down year that a 1st round pick would probably have been the only piece coming back... Kreider is worth more than that. On top of that you had the Rangers sucking to begin with.

His asking price will stay where it is (most likely a top 4 RHD Offensive Defenseman) and we'll probably get more for him as the season starts and moves forward. I wouldn't worry about it right now.

fact:

noun: fact; plural noun: facts

a thing that is indisputably the case.

The media has said we were low balled for many players. That does not make what you are saying about Kreider a fact. I do not need to recheck what makes something a fact. The definition of fact should be the same for both you and I. While I like Dagoon and I appreciate his posts, he has not known every offer that has ever been made by the Rangers or other teams.

 

[RangerBoy]

The Rangers have 35 SPC'S. They re-sign their remaining 6 group II free agents in Kreider,Miller,Hayes, McIlrath,Hrivik and Hughes. 41. They still have so much room. I know they usually leave 1-3 SPC'S to maneuver with during the season. Not 9. They have a ton of flexibility. Hrivik and Hughes will see their qualifying offers expire on Friday.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I'm guessing they're saving up some of those SPC spots for college players that are set to become free agents in August (besides Vesey). What college dmen are out there that would be good additions to Hartford/the prospect pool?

 

[Inferno]

if im a GM, and someone offers me Chris Kreider for a first round draft pick...and im not one of the 5 worst teams in the NHL...id make that trade 1000 times out of 1000

Theres zero guarantee you'd pick anyone with his current talent level, leave alone his potential upside that he still possesses.

I really find it difficult to believe nobody would pony up for CK.

With that said, his one detriment is he's about to get paid...that should lower his value...but hes certainly worth more than a 1st rounder thats for damn sure.