Speculation: Offseason Thread #10?: Whats the plan, Stan?

[I Eat Crow]

Kreider's problems are all upstairs.

Has all the physical tools in the world to be another John LeClair. He won't be, however, because his lack of hockey IQ will hold him back. He's a very useful player, but will go down as one of the most frustrating Rangers of all time. If Kreider even had half of Stepan's hockey IQ, he would be a superstar.

I think we've seen what Kreider is going to be (sorry Bern). What he is now is still a useful player though. As long as one doesn't expect more than 20-25 goals and 20-25 assists, he can still be a very useful top 6 forward, just will never be elite. He might get 30 goals in a career year.

 

[mike14]

Without trying to be rude, couldn't all this **** go in a Kreider thread so the rest of us don't have to to trawl through a few pages to see what else is going on?

 

[NewLife]

I think it's a fair assessment that Kreider still have potential to be something really special, a lot more than his yearly stat sheet tells you but in no way I'd would pay for it. In assets or money. Key is to get him to a good contract cause he will always be a player with gift very few have. That's always valuable.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

Bern I love you but Kreider is Fat-Free Lucic. 2/3rds the points. 2/3rds the hits. And if he was a UFA he'd get 2/3rds the contract ($4M).

Isn't that more like reduced fat? I'd figure low fat would range around 1/3 and fat free would be like AHL quality. Not that I'm being serious, but I figure every post on HF is worthy of an argumentative, derisive comment.

 

[chosen]

Stepan threw a lot more hits in his first two seasons (83, 137). I'm not sure why his hit numbers have fallen off a cliff.

Perhaps it was the concussion scare.

 

[Vernie]

Without trying to be rude, couldn't all this **** go in a Kreider thread so the rest of us don't have to to trawl through a few pages to see what else is going on?

You're definitely right...but short answer: Nothing is going on.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

I'm really starting to dread/think that we are going into this season as is, no further moves. Sure there will be a couple training camp bodies added, but I'm really starting to believe that this roster as you see it is our opening night roster.

Scary.

 

[chosen]

I never understand why we waste time bashing the guys on our team that actually live up to their contracts. Almost all teams in the league would be happy to have guys like Kreider, Stepan, JT, Brass, Mcd, and Zooks based on their production and contracts.

I emphatically disagree that almost all NHL teams would be happy to have Kreider, Stepan, JT, Brass, and Zooks in their top 6.

 

[chosen]

I worry that Kreider is going to become one of those players that gets valued on what they aren't instead of what they are. You see the tools, think he could be a lot more than he is, and that somehow that devalues the things he does bring. Then he gets traded for a player who brings less, but meets the lower expectations placed on him.

Right now, Kreider would be a great third liner on a Cup contender.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I emphatically disagree that almost all NHL teams would be happy to have Kreider, Stepan, JT, Brass, and Zooks in their top 6.

1. I never said a word about top 6. Those are your words. I did say almost all teams would like to have them based on their production and their contracts.

2. Please list all the teams that would not want those players production on their contracts.

 

[Tawnos]

Without trying to be rude, couldn't all this **** go in a Kreider thread so the rest of us don't have to to trawl through a few pages to see what else is going on?

Nothing else is going on though. Trust me, if there was a solid rumor, it would be the only thing being talked about.

 

[chosen]

Stepan HAS plateaued
Kreider is still developing,

What backs up this opinion of yours? Because Stepan is a year older?

If so, does that mean next season is Kreider's plateau?

If Kreider doesn't take a step forward next season, will the following season become his new plateau?

Please answer the three above questions.

Kreider may become a very good player. I have always acknowledged it's possible, but each season makes it less likely.

His fans never seem to acknowledge that perhaps what we have is what we will always have.

My disgust with Kreider is there can be games where he is the most dominant player on the ice and then he can virtually disappear for 5 games. Is it an effort issue? Does he have mental problems? Does he have a fear of success?

Youth is no longer a viable excuse.

No other Rangers forward does this to any extent close to Kreider.

If the argument is that he was never a scorer and therefore it's unrealistic to ever expect him to become one, then he is easily the Rangers best trading chip and should be used as such.

I hope he gets 60 points next season as a Ranger or he gets traded. The teasing has gotten old.

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

B freakin S.
He is a reliable commodity, but what you see is what you get, NO MORE AND NO LESS. He is 25ish g/season period. Every year. Definition of plateau.

There are a lot of people who are OK with who Stepan is.

He can be just a 25 goal scoring center and still be incredibly valuable to us despite the dreaded NTC. And that's due to his overall play. He creates more chances for the team, finishes more chances, and is more productive than CK will ever be. In all three zones of the ice. This is a FACT. Not an OPINION.

You've been wanting to trade Stepan prior to his new contract. You just don't like him. And that's fine, you're entitled to that opinion.

But it doesn't make it right. You always talk about having an open mind, but it's been completely sealed with any discussion involving Stepan. As well as CK. Practice what you preach, brother. People will respect you more for it.

Brains wins over Brawn, Bern. Even the Great one said so. And here are some of his quotes which should mean something to an old timer like yourself:

I couldn't beat people with my strength; I don't have a hard shot; I'm not the quickest skater in the league. My eyes and my mind have to do most of the work.

Ninety percent of hockey is mental and the other half is physical.

Again, it's vet status = overpriced contract + NMC which is why he has to go.
The similar age is not relevant. .

You would have multiples if Kreider got a NMC. Again, you've been trying to trade Stepan since you existed on these boards. Complaining about his 'status' and 'contract' is just another failed attempt on your behalf. It's baloney. You wanted him traded after his rookie season.

And the age is relevant. If it wasn't, then we can start comparing the potential of a 31 year old versus a 19 year old.

They are 10 months apart in age. Period.

It's a free country. You like your guy, I'll like mine.

Only my guy is clearly, head and shoulders better than yours. On his worst day. And his statistics are proof of that.

 

[bernmeister]

....

Uhhh...what? So, because Vigneault hasn't won a Cup, he's therefore holding Kreider back? Come on, bern.

Again, Kreider has been placed in an optimal position to succeed (and I'm dying to see him do so to a greater extent), but it's nobody's fault but his own that he hasn't, to this point.

No optimal would be AV mostly hands off, no 2 gazillion line changes
and a steady routine of pair w/Hayes or Brass and Miller

 

[chosen]

1. I never said a word about top 6. Those are your words. I did say almost all teams would like to have them based on their production and their contracts.

2. Please list all the teams that would not want those players production on their contracts.

Right after you list the FEW players in the NHL you would prefer to Kreider.

 

[bernmeister]

Bern I love you but Kreider is Fat-Free Lucic. 2/3rds the points. 2/3rds the hits. And if he was a UFA he'd get 2/3rds the contract ($4M).

like the phrase goes, I love you man.
esp that avatar... reminds me of al Pacino in one of the all time great movies, ...And Justice for All.

Yeah, I go no prob with this^
Lucic is overpaid, they should do Kreider for 8 yr max and drive the price down to as close to 4 per as possible

 

[NickyFotiu]

I didn't see who started the Stepan 25 goal stuff but I do not think Stepan has ever scored 25 goals in a season. I think this season was his career high at 22 goals.

 

[Tawnos]

I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that Stepan doesn't have a lot of room to grow. He doesn't really have consistency-in-effort issues to fix. We have a pretty good handle on his skill set. What more are we expecting out of him? Is he going to be a 70 point per 82 center? Selke candidate? What is he going to be able to do to get there? I don't think it's unfair to theorize that he's maximized his ability and he'll be a 60 point guy in the long term.

Kreider has a lot more space to grow not because he's a year younger, but because he obviously hasn't maximized his ability. He might not be capable of doing so, which is a question that's yet to be answered.

 

[NickyFotiu]

For what is worth Kreider would have been the 5th best scoring forward on the Penguins this season. 21 goals 43 points is a solid season for a guy that throws 165 hits a season.

 

[bernmeister]

Kreider's problems are all upstairs.

Has all the physical tools in the world to be another John LeClair. He won't be, however, because his lack of hockey IQ will hold him back. He's a very useful player, but will go down as one of the most frustrating Rangers of all time. If Kreider even had half of Stepan's hockey IQ, he would be a superstar.

I think we've seen what Kreider is going to be (sorry Bern). What he is now is still a useful player though. As long as one doesn't expect more than 20-25 goals and 20-25 assists, he can still be a very useful top 6 forward, just will never be elite. He might get 30 goals in a career year.

Over the next few seasons we will see who is right -
you claiming he's capped out at upwards of 25, or me saying he will build on this current mark.

What backs up this opinion of yours? Because Stepan is a year older?

If so, does that mean next season is Kreider's plateau?

If Kreider doesn't take a step forward next season, will the following season become his new plateau?

Please answer the three above questions.

Kreider may become a very good player. I have always acknowledged it's possible, but each season makes it less likely.

His fans never seem to acknowledge that perhaps what we have is what we will always have.

My disgust with Kreider is there can be games where he is the most dominant player on the ice and then he can virtually disappear for 5 games. Is it an effort issue? Does he have mental problems? Does he have a fear of success?

Youth is no longer a viable excuse.

No other Rangers forward does this to any extent close to Kreider.

If the argument is that he was never a scorer and therefore it's unrealistic to ever expect him to become one, then he is easily the Rangers best trading chip and should be used as such.

I hope he gets 60 points next season as a Ranger or he gets traded. The teasing has gotten old.

I have issued multiple posts responding specifically to your assertions, and you ignore them, repeating your talking points, e.g, about age, when I explained it is seniority impacting salary and not chronological age.

I will not waste precious time re-explaining this to you yet again.
Please read the posts before further comment
thank you

 

[Samuel Culper III]

I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that Stepan doesn't have a lot of room to grow. He doesn't really have consistency-in-effort issues to fix. We have a pretty good handle on his skill set. What more are we expecting out of him? Is he going to be a 70 point per 82 center? What is he going to be able to do to get there? I don't think it's unfair to theorize that he's maximized his ability and he'll be a 60 point guy in the long term.

Kreider has a lot more space to grow not because he's a year younger, but because he obviously hasn't maximized his ability. He might not be capable of doing so, which is a question that's yet to be answered.

I agree that Kreider has more room to grow from where he currently is.

But he can grow and he still won't reach the same ceiling as Stepan.

Stepan is a ~60pt center with a very good two way game who can make players on his line better. He's cerebral, brings consistent effort and could even spike up to a 65+ season once or twice in his career.

Kreider could grow into more than he is, but does anyone realistically expect him to be more than a 60 point player? Is he going to develop a stronger two way game than Stepan? Then what is the point of arguing this? Stepan is the better player, whether he has reached his peak or not.

 

[Tawnos]

I agree that Kreider has more room to grow from where he currently is.

But he can grow and he still won't reach the same ceiling as Stepan.

Stepan is a ~60pt center with a very good two way game who can make players on his line better. He's cerebral, brings consistent effort and could even spike up to a 65+ season once or twice in his career.

Kreider could grow into more than he is, but does anyone realistically expect him to be more than a 60 point player? Is he going to develop a stronger two way game than Stepan? Then what is the point of arguing this? Stepan is the better player, whether he has reached his peak or not.

I wasn't really comparing them as players, but more in terms of where they are on a development arc. If Kreider does figure out his consistency issues, he will be a 30-30 guy, which is just as good offensively as Stepan. Stepan obviously provides more, both as a center and as a defensive player.

The stuff about Kreiders hockey IQ, or whatever you want to call it, is overblown. Guerin and Tkachuk were both dumb players, but if you can use your physical gifts effectively in a consistent way, those concerns go away.

Comparing wingers to centers is flat out stupid, anyway.

 

[NickyFotiu]

How many left wings in the whole NHL had more than Kreider 21 goals last season? 15? 20? 25?

Not too many.

 

[Crease]

How many left wings in the whole NHL had more than Kreider 21 goals last season? 15? 20? 25?

Not too many.

T-20 in goals. 28th in points.

 

[NickyFotiu]

T-20 in goals. 28th in points.

Sounds like solid production if he is in the top 20/28 of at least 120 Left Wings.