Speculation: Offseason changes. You are the GM.

[marcel snapshot]

That's how I'd interpret it, maybe that's what marcel meant too and I just didn't understand. I don't think teams are every constructed around a player in hockey. Maybe in basketball, or a football offense, but individual players just aren't that important in hockey. Whoever your star player is, you're going to need four top 4 defensemen and a competent second line in order to contend for a cup.

I agree with all of this - but I don't think the Caps management have adhered to it.

I think the foundational principle of this team (except during Hunter's reign which therefore didn't last long) has been "feed Ovie" - maximize his ability to create scoring chances. Hell, the brass all but said one of the key reasons they got Oates was to revive Ovie - hiring a guy to revive a single player is a very different thing than hiring a guy to coach a hockey team.

Offensively, the Caps top 6 played horribly disjointed hockey this year. They looked like they had no clue how to attack the opposition as a unit. By contrast, Chim-Fehr-Ward were our most successful 5x5 line because they played cohesively as a unit.

In the Bruce go-go years, the team looked more cohesive because the philosophy was attack, and an attack as a unit - and included in that unit was Green. For a variety of reasons, they don't want to play that way anymore. But there's been a total failure of developing tactics and strategy aimed at playing as a cohesive 5-man unit, which is what successful teams do.

I believe part of the reason for that is that the message from the organization (express or implicit) is that if Ovie succeeds, we'll be fine - so focus on getting Ovie to succeed. That's what I mean by philosophy/identity constructed around a single player.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

I would not compare Elias with Ovechkin or close. Your point though, washes over the fact that the Devils were a trap team built on trap style players. Not run and gun style players.

that's my point. this current roster and the prospects coming are not trap style players. it would require a good bit of turnover to effect that change. don't you think?

We have 3 skill players and one of them is 20 years old. It's going to require turnover to go offensive or defensive.

 

[trick9]

I'd be fine with them hiring a new GM and coach that doesn't just tap the players back when they take nights off and coast around. Any player that lacks the effort level should be punished for that because clearly this country club -thing isn't working anymore.

 

[BobRouse]

I would not compare Elias with Ovechkin or close. Your point though, washes over the fact that the Devils were a trap team built on trap style players. Not run and gun style players.

that's my point. this current roster and the prospects coming are not trap style players. it would require a good bit of turnover to effect that change. don't you think?

Lots of turnover.

Seems like some people here want to goto a trapping system if I'm reading it correctly. Brooklyn and RH for sure. I wonder who else?

Its as if they hadn't watched the Schoenfeld and Wilson brand capitals. They missed that entire era.

We have 3 skill players and one of them is 20 years old. It's going to require turnover to go offensive or defensive.

Burakovsky, Bowey, Carrick also. Not to mention that 2 of those other Skill players being traded would be a massive turnover.

So you advocate moving Ovechkin, Backstrom and bringing in a coach like Martin or unearthing Lemaire? Bringing back Hunterhockey?

Just for the record...you are CLEARLY advocating going to a trapping defensive system right?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

No thanks for a trap for me. Why have the greatest goal scorer in the world and not play to his strengths? Fix the D and go up tempo.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Lots of turnover.

Seems like some people here want to goto a trapping system if I'm reading it correctly. Brooklyn and RH for sure. I wonder who else?

Its as if they hadn't watched the Schoenfeld and Wilson brand capitals. They missed that entire era.



Burakovsky, Bowey, Carrick also. Not to mention that 2 of those other Skill players being traded would be a massive turnover.

So you advocate moving Ovechkin, Backstrom and bringing in a coach like Martin or unearthing Lemaire? Bringing back Hunterhockey?

Just for the record...you are CLEARLY advocating going to a trapping defensive system right?

I'm not advocating anything. But I wouldn't dismiss someone like Trotz out of hand.

Mogilny scored 40 in the 90s in the trap. Stankos scored 60 in the trap just two years ago. Goalscorers can perform in the trap.

And Backstrom -I'd rather he develop into a Koivu type player than play like he has for the past 3 years.

So yeah. I'm not really worried about the two skill players on our roster.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'm not advocating anything. But I wouldn't dismiss someone like Trotz out of hand.

Mogilny scored 40 in the 90s in the trap. Stankos scored 60 in the trap just two years ago. Goalscorers can perform in the trap.

And Backstrom -I'd rather he develop into a Koivu type player than play like he has for the past 3 years.

So yeah. I'm not really worried about the two skill players on our roster.

This guy?

Maybe you're referring to 2000-2001?

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

This guy?

Maybe you're referring to 2000-2001?

My mistake. Still happened smack dab in the dead puck era.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

My mistake. Still happened smack dab in the dead puck era.

Hard to figure out how he did it too. He hadn't sniffed 30 in almost 5 years, much less 40. Injuries....

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Hard to figure out how he did it too. He hadn't sniffed 30 in almost 5 years, much less 40. Injuries....

Foy or sk8 could have given us more detail. They gave up on this dumpster fire of a franchise though.

 

[BobRouse]

I'm not advocating anything. But I wouldn't dismiss someone like Trotz out of hand.

Mogilny scored 40 in the 90s in the trap. Stankos scored 60 in the trap just two years ago. Goalscorers can perform in the trap.

And Backstrom -I'd rather he develop into a Koivu type player than play like he has for the past 3 years.

So yeah. I'm not really worried about the two skill players on our roster.

Well you have to understand that if we hire someone like Trotz that would indicate massive organizational change (player wise) revolving around a coach. We'd heavily invest ourselves in a coach when we have a good deal of players on guaranteed contracts that dont work with that style (btw Trotz is not a good example. The guy has had next to ZERO playoff success and has been one and done more than a few times)

Backstrom had an up and down season but he's been a highly productive player here and had his worst year in 2010-11 when he still put up 65pts. This year he seemed like a poor ES player but again...so did ALL OUR PLAYERS essentially. Thats on coaching.

Personally I'd rather go forward with 8/19 as opposed to build our team around a trapping coach.

 

[RandyHolt]

When they were young, the core of this team - Ovie, Nick, Green - played with youthful energy and exuberant-passion-over-how-much-fun-it-was-to-be-young-and-succeeding-in-the-NHL. That effectively served as a substitute for the work ethic/commitment/relentlessness/will to win that successful NHL teams have infused through their roster.

Well, they're not young anymore and they don't play with that zeal and energy. Meanwhile, they never cultivated (and never were made to develop, because they were so "special") a work ethic/commitment/relentlessness/will to win and thus, unsurprisingly, the team that they lead has not been successful.

A great post

One correction, the decline has already been dramatic and ugly. We were gifted the playoffs in the southleast to mask our failures since 2010.

Do we want to win a cup? I think most fans would rather be entertained.

Green Nick and Ovi are not even providing us entertainment value anymore. They look uninterested, old and tired.

Run and gun or hunker in our bunker, they are boring to watch now.

Without an Ovi PPG or a Wilson hit, there was little excitement when watching this past season.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Well you have to understand that if we hire someone like Trotz that would indicate massive organizational change (player wise) revolving around a coach. We'd heavily invest ourselves in a coach when we have a good deal of players on guaranteed contracts that dont work with that style (btw Trotz is not a good example. The guy has had next to ZERO playoff success and has been one and done more than a few times)

Backstrom had an up and down season but he's been a highly productive player here and had his worst year in 2010-11 when he still put up 65pts. This year he seemed like a poor ES player but again...so did ALL OUR PLAYERS essentially. Thats on coaching.

Personally I'd rather go forward with 8/19 as opposed to build our team around a trapping coach.

Pretty much entirely rubbish. An offensive system requires just as much turnaround if not more. Namely, a 1lw, a 2lw, a 2c, and ideally a proper 2rw up front. We'd also need 2 offensive dmen. 1 to fill a hole and one to fill in for Green the next time he takes a hit.

Stamkos and St. Louis seemed to do fine under Boucher.

 

[Vabeachblue]

Good players can learn to play defense, Defense wins championships...

 

[RandyHolt]

Lots of turnover.

Seems like some people here want to goto a trapping system if I'm reading it correctly. Brooklyn and RH for sure. I wonder who else?

Read wrong.

I am not sure running and gunning is the best way for us to win a cup. It does not mean I want to watch our players get hit with pucks for 82 games.

It's so bad now, I don't even care about the cup.

We can't even make the playoffs, as constructed.

Ok let's say run and gun is the key to a cup. Isn't it odd that there aren't coaches perfect fits to unleash Ovi?

When every available coach is suggested, it seems they all seem to have a trap history. Our problems run deeper than those concerns though; it's what to do about our fallen stars.

It almost seems telling them to cherry pick every game all year is all that will motivate them enough to give a full 20 minutes of work.

 

[BobRouse]

Pretty much entirely rubbish. An offensive system requires just as much turnaround if not more. Namely, a 1lw, a 2lw, a 2c, and ideally a proper 2rw up front. We'd also need 2 offensive dmen. 1 to fill a hole and one to fill in for Green the next time he takes a hit.

Stamkos and St. Louis seemed to do fine under Boucher.

So if offensive player A plays well under a trap then offensive player B will as well?

We've seen Ovechkin play under a trap a few times and its not pretty. We have evidence of this in the 2nd half of 06-07, beginning of 07-08, Hunterhockey etc

We have Orlov, Bowey, Carlson, Green right now...how many more offensive dmen do you need???

Up front more problematic but 8/19/92 is a good start. Then resign Grabovski while waiting on Burakovsky. We'd need at least 1 winger.

To goto a trap we give up 8/19/52 and perhaps 92 and would have to replace all of them up front.

We'd have to alter our D either way. We'd keep Brouwer, Laich and move Fehr up.

It would take a couple years to restructure our prospects and make the right trades and free agent signings.

Are you suggesting the change to the roster would be the EXACT same (in terms of level) whether we choose a trap or run n gun???

I disagree. We are far more set up for run n gun right now and its not close.

Read wrong.

I am not sure running and gunning is the best way for us to win a cup. It does not mean I want to watch our players get hit with pucks for 82 games.

It's so bad now, I don't even care about the cup.

We can't even make the playoffs, as constructed.

Ok let's say run and gun is the key to a cup. Isn't it odd that there aren't coaches perfect fits to unleash Ovi?

When every available coach, it seems they all seem to have a trap history. Our problems run deeper than that though, its what to do about our fallen stars.

It almost seems telling them to cherry pick every game all year is all that will motivate them enough to 20 minutes of work.

There is no question we are bad now...under Oates. Oates doesn't know what he wants. We don't play D and we dont play O. We just are sorta out there with little direction and no identity.

There are coaches out there that are proven winners who employ a run n gun style with stretch passes. Chicago cherry picks Patrick Sharp all game! Then you have Laviolette and John Anderson out there as well.

Our stars aren't what they were but they are much better than they have showed under Oates here at ES.

The trap was THE strategy to use in the dead puck era. Now it can work either way. You can trap and win and you can use run n gun and win. Patrick Roy, Quenville, Bylsma etc all play a "throw caution to the wind" type of game.

We can win either way. The question is do you want to make wholesale roster changes in HOPES that the trap is the way to go?

Well if you don't believe we can win a run n gun game around 8/19/Kuz/Burakovsky, Orlov, Green then sure. Just got to get rid of most of those guys. Especially 8 who has proven to not perform in a trapping system.

 

[txpd]

So yeah. I'm not really worried about the two skill players on our roster.

the two. it was three just one post ago. it ignore Carlson and Green. It ignores Schmidt and Carrick and Bowey on defense. It ignore Johansson. Fehr is more a skill player than a grinder.

I understand what you are trying to say. They pretty much all suck. You seem to support Ovechkin, maybe, but even Backstrom you want to see completely change his game.

its not that bad. not close

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

So if offensive player A plays well under a trap then offensive player B will as well?

We've seen Ovechkin play under a trap a few times and its not pretty. We have evidence of this in the 2nd half of 06-07, beginning of 07-08, Hunterhockey etc

We have Orlov, Bowey, Carlson, Green right now...how many more offensive dmen do you need???

Up front more problematic but 8/19/92 is a good start. Then resign Grabovski while waiting on Burakovsky. We'd need at least 1 winger.

To goto a trap we give up 8/19/52 and perhaps 92 and would have to replace all of them up front.

We'd have to alter our D either way. We'd keep Brouwer, Laich and move Fehr up.

It would take a couple years to restructure our prospects and make the right trades and free agent signings.

Are you suggesting the change to the roster would be the EXACT same (in terms of level) whether we choose a trap or run n gun???

I disagree. We are far more set up for run n gun right now and its not close.

It is patently absurd to count on Green and Laich to do heavy lifting next season.

The roster you describe is far worse than the one we had in 2010 and they didn't work out. So a lesser version of that is a good idea why?

 

[BobRouse]

It is patently absurd to count on Green and Laich to do heavy lifting next season.

The roster you describe is far worse than the one we had in 2010 and they didn't work out. So a lesser version of that is a good idea why?

The roster in 2010 was great (D issues aside) and didn't work out due to an abberation. It was an overreaction to that abberation that has led us to where we are now. I think thats commonly understood in hindsight.

Lets exclude Laich and Green. Even Hillen since he can't stay on the ice.

We still have guys like Orlov, Carlson and others like Carrick, Schmidt and Bowey on D.

We need more skill in the top 6 for sure. Our bottom 6 looks good for the most part.

I'd rather find replacements for Brouwer and MJ than to find replacements for 8/19.

 

[txpd]

Stamkos and St. Louis seemed to do fine under Boucher.

Stamkos scored 60 the season that Boucher was fired before halfway. He scored 45 the year they beat the Caps and 51 the season before that. Nearly half of those goals came on the power play. Very Ovechkinesque.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

The roster in 2010 was great (D issues aside) and didn't work out due to an abberation. It was an overreaction to that abberation that has led us to where we are now. I think thats commonly understood in hindsight.

Lets exclude Laich and Green. Even Hillen since he can't stay on the ice.

We still have guys like Orlov, Carlson and others like Carrick, Schmidt and Bowey on D.

We need more skill in the top 6 for sure. Our bottom 6 looks good for the most part.

I'd rather find replacements for Brouwer and MJ than to find replacements for 8/19.

No one is talking about trading 8/19 except you and TXPD. Whoever is in charge needs to surround them with a ******** of talent no matter what the system is going to be.

If you want to play a Shark's style possession game, I'm comfortable with Ovechkin and Kuznetzov in the top 6. If Backstrom finds his game, he's capable as well. That's it.

As for D, Carlson-Alzner is an excellent second pair in any scheme. They still need two players to push them down the depth chart.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Stamkos scored 60 the season that Boucher was fired before halfway. He scored 45 the year they beat the Caps and 51 the season before that. Nearly half of those goals came on the power play. Very Ovechkinesque.

What's the point of posting things that aren't true?

Stamkos scored 60 in the 2011/2012 season. Boucher was coach of the Lightning from 2010-2013

 

[BobRouse]

No one is talking about trading 8/19 except you and TXPD. Whoever is in charge needs to surround them with a ******** of talent no matter what the system is going to be.

If you want to play a Shark's style possession game, I'm comfortable with Ovechkin and Kuznetzov in the top 6. If Backstrom finds his game, he's capable as well. That's it.

As for D, Carlson-Alzner is an excellent second pair in any scheme. They still need two players to push them down the depth chart.

IF we are going to a trap there is absolutely no sense in keeping #8. He will be miserable. There will be a Hunter style media circus and distraction around him. His results are not good under a trap. Certainly not worth $9 mil cap hit. We can get 5 or 6 Beagle/Hendricks players for that who will help us more in that scheme.

Yes I'd be fine playing a possession game. That is what this roster is built to do best when you consider the core and key young players.

Agreed on the D in one sense. I think we need more depth. We can get by with Carlzner as the #1 pair as long as we have a solid #2 pair and a #3 pair that doesn't anchor us like this past year.

 

[marcel snapshot]

It almost seems telling them to cherry pick every game all year is all that will motivate them enough to 20 minutes of work.

Yeah, for whatever reason, our top guys think they have to cheat on D in order to succeed at O. They view offense and defense as a zero-sum game. It's hard to believe that our coaches have not pointed out how wrong this is.

Most successful teams recognize that being defensively responsible can translate into scoring chances - and that doesn't mean or require playing a trap. The Ducks, Sharks, Hawks, Bruins and Canadiens all play responsible defensively while still generating offense.

But there's real doubt about whether Ovie, Nick and Green buy into it, because the contrast between their commitment and effort when they have the puck versus when they don't seems pretty plain to my eyes.

And opponents have figured it out - they put their top line out against Ovie an Nick because rather than backing off them, they learned that the best way to defend against Ovie and Nick is to attack them.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Yeah, for whatever reason, our top guys think they have to cheat on D in order to succeed at O. They view offense and defense as a zero-sum game. It's hard to believe that our coaches have not pointed out how wrong this is.

Most successful teams recognize that being defensively responsible can translate into scoring chances - and that doesn't mean or require playing a trap. The Ducks, Sharks, Hawks, Bruins and Canadiens all play responsible defensively while still generating offense.

But there's real doubt about whether Ovie, Nick and Green buy into it, because the contrast between their commitment and effort when they have the puck versus when they don't seems pretty plain to my eyes.

And opponents have figured it out - they put their top line out against Ovie an Nick because rather than backing off them, they learned that the best way to defend against Ovie and Nick is to attack them.

You're on fire today.