"O Captain! My Captain!" ... the 'C' vs. the true leader

[Hobnobs]

i think it can be a way to signal to the room that the lazy or toxic vets don’t own the room

trevor linden would be one example. sure you could have given a solid 30 year old guy like doug lidster the c for another tear or two after smyl leaves. good guy, future coach, won’t be a problem. but there’s a reason pat quinn traded dan quinn away. there’s a reason why he turned over the entire roster over four years. that’s why the kiddo became captain. as much a message to all the other young guys that this is your team, you lead, do not learn from the dead weight just because they have experience. not all experience is good experience.

there’s a famous story of the great bill russell telling young kenny smith that he wasn’t allowed to sot in the back of the bus with the vets on the sacramento kings because they don’t mind losing. so he had to spend his rookie season sitting next to russell.

i assume it was the same for yzerman coming onto the dead wings.

the opposite is the canucks resisting making bo horvat captain after henrik sedin retired. jim benning and co are doubling down and saying we live and die with our toxic lazy vet core of eriksson, sutter, gudbranson before he was traded, etc.

Sounds plausible as well. When the Red Wings gave it to Yzerman I think they just wanted to give it to their future franchise centerman. By that time they had already overhauled most of the roster and iirc there were only three players over thirty with Lewis joining the team that season. And the top-6 was 23 or younger for a majority of that season (Yzerman, Gallant, Burr, Probert, Klima, Oates + 27 year old Ogrodnick who was traded by xmas). Defensemen who played most of the season was Norwood, Veitch, O'Connell, Snepsts, Lewis and rookie Chiasson. None of them are really captain material.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Yes, I think so too. I don't get this recent trend of 19-year-olds being named team captain. It simply goes against nature.

I'm 43 now (though evidently I look younger) and I teach 19 year-olds at a university. I'm trying to imagine a scenario where my boss one day tells me that a 19-year-old is now our Department's leader.

I realize sports isn't education/academia, but I cannot imagine any good effect a 19-year-old captain would have on team morale if even a handful of players are, say, over 30. It's basically a message from the coach/management that you are not that valued.

Of course, there's no particular age when a person should/shouldn't be captain, but at least let the player be a little seasoned first. If you haven't done/won anything, you should not be captain.

Agreed, though my rationale is a bit different.

To my mind, potential followers of a leader need to answer “Yes” to three basic questions: do I totally trust him to have my back, does he genuinely care about me as a player and a person, and does the team coaching staff/management respect his opinion. This last one is often overlooked and I think it is crucial because leaders more often speak “For” the players than “to” the players.

The entire “leader on the ice and in the room” stuff isn’t always what players want in a Captain. And a youngster who is still wet behind the ears? No, he’s not my leader — trust is built over time and the celebrated Face of the Franchise is only rarely the revered Voice of the Players.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I can't imagine that Lindros was the true leader of the 1998 Canadian Olympic team with Gretzky in the room.

As a side point, I wonder if Lindros would have been captain if Mario Lemieux had been available and on the team. I lean no, but Lindros over Gretzky in and of itself is already very surprising.

it was speculated at the time that the reason messier wasn't on the team was so let lindros be the captain, i.e. there was no way lindros (or for that matter anyone not named wayne) could be the captain with messier in the room. trevor linden was on that olympic team, ironically.

bobby clarke was GM so i think there's no way he's not making lindros the captain, to the benefit of his NHL team. i think this is the same reason why historically so many of the bottom of the lineup players have been on teams coached or managed by team brass—i'm thinking crossman and young rick tocchet on the '87 team (keenan was coach), claude lemieux on the same team (jean perron was assistant coach), corson, russ courtnall, and desjardins in '91 (pat burns), adam foote on the '96 team (marc crawford), brewer and ryan smyth on so many team canadas (lowe), and so on. when keenan in '91 says i gotta have dirk graham and steve larmer, that's a coach going with the guys he trusts. but when kevin lowe says i gotta have eric brewer, that's a guy who wants his youngster to rub elbows with macinnis, pronger, and rob blake and hopefully learn something. and you have seen historically that this works, whether it's rick tocchet making a jump to a point/game player after the '87 canada cup and regular 40 goal scorer by the time he's a no brainer for the '91 team, to iginla walking on to the '02 summer camp and that fall leading the league in scoring.

but i digress. you also see examples of teams parting ways with useful vets that their kids looked up to so the kids can take over. one positive example is pittsburgh letting gary roberts and mark recchi go in the '08 offseason and turning the team completely over to crosby/malkin. another is chicago trading away marty lapointe (captain and toews' roommate) at the '08 deadline and letting havlat leave in the '09 offseason. the second one might be negative—kane and toews, and other young guys like bolland, apparently idolized havlat and maybe management didn't necessarily think that was a positive thing. i remember both kane and toews saying that they were disappointed in the press, and this is after the team replaced havlat with a future hall of famer.

 

[JackSlater]

it was speculated at the time that the reason messier wasn't on the team was so let lindros be the captain, i.e. there was no way lindros (or for that matter anyone not named wayne) could be the captain with messier in the room. trevor linden was on that olympic team, ironically.

bobby clarke was GM so i think there's no way he's not making lindros the captain, to the benefit of his NHL team. i think this is the same reason why historically so many of the bottom of the lineup players have been on teams coached or managed by team brass—i'm thinking crossman and young rick tocchet on the '87 team (keenan was coach), claude lemieux on the same team (jean perron was assistant coach), corson, russ courtnall, and desjardins in '91 (pat burns), adam foote on the '96 team (marc crawford), brewer and ryan smyth on so many team canadas (lowe), and so on. when keenan in '91 says i gotta have dirk graham and steve larmer, that's a coach going with the guys he trusts. but when kevin lowe says i gotta have eric brewer, that's a guy who wants his youngster to rub elbows with macinnis, pronger, and rob blake and hopefully learn something. and you have seen historically that this works, whether it's rick tocchet making a jump to a point/game player after the '87 canada cup and regular 40 goal scorer by the time he's a no brainer for the '91 team, to iginla walking on to the '02 summer camp and that fall leading the league in scoring.

but i digress. you also see examples of teams parting ways with useful vets that their kids looked up to so the kids can take over. one positive example is pittsburgh letting gary roberts and mark recchi go in the '08 offseason and turning the team completely over to crosby/malkin. another is chicago trading away marty lapointe (captain and toews' roommate) at the '08 deadline and letting havlat leave in the '09 offseason. the second one might be negative—kane and toews, and other young guys like bolland, apparently idolized havlat and maybe management didn't necessarily think that was a positive thing. i remember both kane and toews saying that they were disappointed in the press, and this is after the team replaced havlat with a future hall of famer.

Yes I've certainly heard the Messier speculation. To me it would have been significantly more difficult to justify Lindros as captain with Lemieux there. Gretzky is obviously the legend and most decorated captain, but at that point Lindros was the better player and that was an aspect of the justification. With Lemieux even that aspect is gone. Seeing Lemieux as the captain over Gretzky also would have been weird though.

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, I think with Team Canada '98 the whole rationale there was "new era begins now!" because Canada had lost in '96 (albeit barely and partly due to a high-stick by Brett Hull, but I digress), so Clarke thought making Lindros the captain would signify a fresh, new beginning to Team Canada, with Gretzky & Bourque in the decorated old-men roles. Consequently, Lindros, or at least somebody young-ish, had to be captain (in their rationale).

That whole team just felt 'off', as did the captaincy. Lindros had never won the Cup, and although he was on-board for Canada Cup '91 he was more of a small part than a main player. For this reason, it felt odd. 11 players on that team (incl. both goalies) were ex-Cup winners, and they picked a guy who'd never won it to be captain. Maybe they could have named Gretzky and Lindros co-captains, or just Gretzky and Bourque, or even a "middle-aged" respected guy like Yzerman or Sakic. (Rob Zamuner...? I'm kidding.)

Someone made a good point, above, that being an NHL captain now isn't like it was in the 50s or 80s. Nowadays, I think it's more about who can handle the media pressure and not lose their composure. In the past, it was more about who had the players' respect.

 

[sr edler]

Forsberg over Sakic?

Kesler over Sedin?

... I shouldn't laugh, but I thought this was funny, sorry. It seems you're trying to equate what you think is the best or most impactful overall player with the captain role. I also think you're perhaps overrating the role of the captaincy just a little bit if you think say Van would have beaten Boston in 2011 if only Kesler was captain instead of Sedin. You really think it would have changed team dynamics that much?

Kesler was known at the time as perhaps the biggest douchebag in the league (save Avery).

Forsberg was never a douchebag but both him and Kesler were known as very emotional and sometimes grumpy players. Not exactly how you envision a captain, but what do I know. On the national team Forsberg was never considered captain, players like Calle Johansson or Jörgen Jönsson would go before him. Most players would go before him.

 

[VanIslander]

... if you think say Van would have beaten Boston in 2011 if only Kesler was captain instead of Sedin. You really think it would have changed team dynamics that much?

Who the heck thinks that?

You are imagining quite a straw man.

 

[sr edler]

Who the heck thinks that?

You are imagining quite a straw man.

Okay then. Both Forsberg and Kesler were also accused of diving, also not what you stereotypically envision in a captain. Kesler (sometimes) did dive more blatantly than Forsberg though. I think the diving thing with Forsberg's a little exaggerated personally, he took a lot of abuse (and gave back some).

 

[VanIslander]

Messier and Howe were famous for their dirty tactics, as were Shore and Habs captains Lalonde and especially Cleghorn.

BEING NASTY, TRICKY, DIRTY, ... all are what some FIERCE COMPETITORS do.

The opposition may have hated Forsberg and Kesler but they were warriors for their team with a do-anything-to-win mentality!

 

[Peter Tosh]

Van gave Luongo the C, semi-officially, for one season. They said that Lou’s captaincy was only a way to formalize what was already a fact, that Luongo was the leader of the group.

If goalies wore the C, Roy would probably have been a long time captain in MTL, and Hasek possibly in BUF

 

[86Habs]

The oral history of Team Canada's 1996 World Cup training camp - Sportsnet.ca

Some interesting comments in this article from Arnott and Crawford on Joe Sakic, in the context of the 1996 World Cup training camp. Seems like an outstanding teammate. Leadership of course comes in various forms and styles...

"JASON ARNOTT My roommate was Joe Sakic, which was really cool. He made me feel like I was one of the guys. To this day, he’s a good friend of mine. Just because of that camp, we got to know each other. He helped me along and gave me some advice moving forward.

MARC CRAWFORD I know from my time working with Joe in Quebec and the three years in Colorado as well — those years, we could play Joe with anybody and everybody instantly became better. He was one of those players who did that. Part of the reason it evolved like that was because Joe was a very comforting figure. He was someone who looked out for the best interests of other people. Him doing that for Jason Arnott, I’m not surprised in the least.

JASON ARNOTT Just was one of the nicest guys you’d ever meet.

MARC CRAWFORD He did that for several players on the Avalanche. In those days, we used to have roommates and if we found people were struggling, often times we’d just say, “Joe, you’re gonna room with this guy,” and Joe would say, “Yeah that’s great.” He recognized when people needed a boost and when they needed to feel a little more comfortable."

 

[double5son10]

2. Joe Nieuwendyk in Dallas during Hatcher captaincy.

Derian was American, and the franchise was in Texas, so the 'C' made sense for media responsibilities, but - even though Modano too was American - it was Joe who the media said led the locker room. In fact, I recall, the postseason before their cup, when Nieuwy went out with an injury in the first game of the playoffs, an announcer said the players were devastated, that the true leader of the Stars was sidelined pretty much ends the hopes of the cup contenders that year.

What a weird assertion. If the announcer (which one?) said the players were devastated because their leading scorer was injured, that would make some sense. Yet this is a team that without him still made it to game 6 of the Conf. Finals before being eliminated, so clearly their hopes weren't resting on the performance of one player. They didn't just fall apart because their supposed alpha-dog got hurt. Never mind about Hatcher and Modano, this was a team with Carbonneau, Keane, Skrudland, Verbeek, Errey--all players who had elsewhere worn the C at some point, and they were joined by other vets who had previous Finals experience: Belfour, Craig Ludwig, Greg Adams, Craig Muni, as well as Modano. Stars were a veteran laden squad with multiple leaders who knew how to get the job done. Yea, seems like a BS media driven myth to me.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Van gave Luongo the C, semi-officially, for one season. They said that Lou’s captaincy was only a way to formalize what was already a fact, that Luongo was the leader of the group.

If goalies wore the C, Roy would probably have been a long time captain in MTL, and Hasek possibly in BUF

Same with Carey Price in Montreal.

Price will probably go down as one of the most underrated goalies of all-time because of the situation he was thrown in. I'd take him, by very far, ahead of any goalie since Brodeur. I wouldn't even second-guess it, I'd just pick him up immediately if my life was on the line.

 

[scribe114]

Harvey might have been a great leader, but he was already into the "sauce" pretty well by 1960, wasn't he? But as you say, maybe it was just automatically offered to the senior player upon another's retirement.

On that point, how many non-francophone captains of the Habs were there before Bob Gainey?

Harvey's drinking once he was wearing the C wasn't seen as problematic at the time, or it was spoken about in hushed tones. Seems like it didn't become a public issue until he became coach of the Rangers and went public about wanting to be able to drink a few with the boys after a game without the separation required of being the coach.

Canadiens Captaincy was done by vote once Harvey was traded. According to Geoffrion's biography, It was a tie between Geoffrion and Beliveau and management went with Beliveau because the perception was Geoffrion was not serious enough to handle being captain. He wrote in his bio that he was very hurt by the decision to make Beliveau captain over him as he was the senior man after Harvey.

From what I could read, the Habs Captaincy was more about prestige vice who was calling the shots in the Dressing Room, as Blake managed the egos and personalities much better than Irvin did.