"O Captain! My Captain!" ... the 'C' vs. the true leader

[VanIslander]

There are several examples of teams that had one guy as the designated captain, but another guy as the true leader in the dressing room and on the ice.

Reporters have noted such, time and again.

Two clear examples come to mind:

1. Mark Messier in Edmonton during the Gretzky years.

Gretzky wore the 'C' and had gravitas, but Moose led the team, calling out players in the dressing room, being vocal on the bench, jokingly referred to as "coach" by Lowe once during intermission.

2. Joe Nieuwendyk in Dallas during Hatcher captaincy.

Derian was American, and the franchise was in Texas, so the 'C' made sense for media responsibilities, but - even though Modano too was American - it was Joe who the media said led the locker room. In fact, I recall, the postseason before their cup, when Nieuwy went out with an injury in the first game of the playoffs, an announcer said the players were devastated, that the true leader of the Stars was sidelined pretty much ends the hopes of the cup contenders that year.

There are others....

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

Official media responsibilities aside, the other two duties of captain: being the guy others listen and look to in the dressing room and on the ice/bench...

Forsberg over Sakic?

Kesler over Sedin?

Orr over Bucyk?

 

[Hobnobs]

How do you know Gretzky/Hatcher were less of a leader?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Official media responsibilities aside, the other two duties of captain: being the guy others listen and look to in the dressing room and on the ice/bench...

Forsberg over Sakic?

During the early years in Denver, I want to say that a lot of the stuff that leaked had the names Deadmarsh, Lemieux, and Roy.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

assuming our definition of captain is guy expected to speak most and loudest, which is a debatable definition, i think it’s not uncommon at all.

jovo for markus naslund

kevin stevens for mario

toews for crosby at the 2014 olympics

but otoh would you ever say shanahan (or whoever) was the real leader of yzerman’s red wings? i don’t think so.

that said, i think there are definitely times when an older guy can’t help but be the guy everyone looks to, even if he does necessarily set the tone. i think larionov did this in detroit, sundin in vancouver, trottier in pittsburgh, rob blake in sj.

 

[Sticks and Pucks]

How about Drew Doughty over Dustin Brown/Anze Kopitar in LA?

 

[scribe114]

Lee Fogolin was the Oilers captain prior to Gretzky.

 

[ted2019]

Chris Pronger when Mike Richards was captain in Philly.

 

[The Panther]

Lee Fogolin was the Oilers captain prior to Gretzky.

I don't see that this fits the thread-topic...

 

[alko]

All this young captains (Crosby in his beginning, McDavid ...) are always questionable. How could such young player have a respect between older players? Even if he is productive.

 

[The Panther]

All this young captains (Crosby in his beginning, McDavid ...) are always questionable. How could such young player have a respect between older players? Even if he is productive.

Yes, I think so too. I don't get this recent trend of 19-year-olds being named team captain. It simply goes against nature.

I'm 43 now (though evidently I look younger) and I teach 19 year-olds at a university. I'm trying to imagine a scenario where my boss one day tells me that a 19-year-old is now our Department's leader.

I realize sports isn't education/academia, but I cannot imagine any good effect a 19-year-old captain would have on team morale if even a handful of players are, say, over 30. It's basically a message from the coach/management that you are not that valued.

Of course, there's no particular age when a person should/shouldn't be captain, but at least let the player be a little seasoned first. If you haven't done/won anything, you should not be captain.

 

[Hobnobs]

Yes, I think so too. I don't get this recent trend of 19-year-olds being named team captain. It simply goes against nature.

I'm 43 now (though evidently I look younger) and I teach 19 year-olds at a university. I'm trying to imagine a scenario where my boss one day tells me that a 19-year-old is now our Department's leader.

I realize sports isn't education/academia, but I cannot imagine any good effect a 19-year-old captain would have on team morale if even a handful of players are, say, over 30. It's basically a message from the coach/management that you are not that valued.

Of course, there's no particular age when a person should/shouldn't be captain, but at least let the player be a little seasoned first. If you haven't done/won anything, you should not be captain.

Its a trend of rebuilding. It was the same in the 80s. Young captains like Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman and Sakic.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The C is mostly symbolic and highly overrated in terms of impact. Makes for a great dumbed-down narrative though.

 

[The Panther]

Its a trend of rebuilding. It was the same in the 80s. Young captains like Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman and Sakic.

As I said, I don't there's a particular age when it's okay (or not) to be captain -- take it case by case -- but those situations are a little different, I think. Gretzky became captain at the start of his fifth season (sixth pro), Yzerman and Lemieux their fourth, and Sakic also fifth (though he shared it one and off in his third, as well). Those timelines I can see as reasonable. I just have a problem with a player who's still in his teens and doesn't shave being captain.

 

[VanIslander]

The C is mostly symbolic and highly overrated in terms of impact. Makes for a great dumbed-down narrative though.

Exactly. That's why we see leaders on the bench, and hear about leaders in the dressing room, who aren't wearing the 'C'.

Media responsibilities and marketing often influence decisions. Not all teams have their players vote for their leader.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I always thought that the "Joe Nieuwendyk is the real leader of the Stars" stuff was just the Canadian media doing its thing pumping up the myth of the inspirational Canadian hockey player. Kind of like how they openly wondered if Europeans cared enough about the Stanley Cup to ever be Smythe-worthy.

 

[BenchBrawl]

It's not entirely clear who was the true leader (if such a thing make sense on those specific teams) of the 50s and 70s Montreal dynasties.

1950s mega dynasty: Béliveau was there but he was younger. Rocket had the C but he was the veteran and I think it was automatically given to him, like it was given to Harvey after him. Everything I've read indicates Harvey was a great leader too. Geoffrion. Plante. Olmstead. Moore. Plenty of leaders in that room beyond the C.

1970s dynasty: Wearing the C is not something Cournoyer is remembered for even though he was the captain of the dynasty. It's not like George Armstrong or Jonathan Toews or Mark Messier where people remember them for that. Not sure who the best non-C leader would be, but my guess is Serge Savard? He seems remembered for his leadership more than Cournoyer, but that could be because he was GM.

1960s dynasty was obviously Béliveau.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Lemieux post-retirement is another answer in 00-01. Or did Jagr gave him the C after a few games? I don't remember.

 

[solidmotion]

As I said, I don't there's a particular age when it's okay (or not) to be captain -- take it case by case -- but those situations are a little different, I think. Gretzky became captain at the start of his fifth season (sixth pro), Yzerman and Lemieux their fourth, and Sakic also fifth (though he shared it one and off in his third, as well). Those timelines I can see as reasonable. I just have a problem with a player who's still in his teens and doesn't shave being captain.

so... just mcdavid, crosby and landeskog then?

 

[The Panther]

1950s mega dynasty: Béliveau was there but he was younger. Rocket had the C but he was the veteran and I think it was automatically given to him, like it was given to Harvey after him. Everything I've read indicates Harvey was a great leader too. Geoffrion. Plante. Olmstead. Moore. Plenty of leaders in that room beyond the C.

Harvey might have been a great leader, but he was already into the "sauce" pretty well by 1960, wasn't he? But as you say, maybe it was just automatically offered to the senior player upon another's retirement.

On that point, how many non-francophone captains of the Habs were there before Bob Gainey?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Harvey might have been a great leader, but he was already into the "sauce" pretty well by 1960, wasn't he? But as you say, maybe it was just automatically offered to the senior player upon another's retirement.

On that point, how many non-francophone captains of the Habs were there before Bob Gainey?

So was Winston Churchill and many others.

Answer to your question: Many. Lalonde, Cleghorn, Blake, Siebert, not even sure if Mantha was french or not.

 

[Hobnobs]

As I said, I don't there's a particular age when it's okay (or not) to be captain -- take it case by case -- but those situations are a little different, I think. Gretzky became captain at the start of his fifth season (sixth pro), Yzerman and Lemieux their fourth, and Sakic also fifth (though he shared it one and off in his third, as well). Those timelines I can see as reasonable. I just have a problem with a player who's still in his teens and doesn't shave being captain.

Never said you did but McDavid is for example a special case. I dont see many on that team as leaders except for maybe Sekera. Cant remember who else was 19. Crosby?

So was Winston Churchill and many others.

Answer to your question: Many. Lalonde, Cleghorn, Blake, Siebert, not even sure if Mantha was french or not.

You think that Winston "Operation Unthinkable" Churchill was a good leader?

 

[BenchBrawl]

You think that Winston "Operation Unthinkable" Churchill was a good leader?

I have no strong opinion on Churchill, only used him because he was a drunktard and is generally seen as a good leader, especially in the anglosphere which is where this board is located.

About Harvey specifically; there's a difference between a guy who drinks a lot at age 25-35 in his prime and in top shape, and a guy who does it at age 55-65, since it's safe to assume the latter didn't start randomly at that age so has a lot of drunken mileage (and possibly the brain damage that comes with it).

By and large alcohol is a disguised medication available to everyone - especially men - to self-medicate their anxiety (or in Harvey's case, his bipolar disorder).

 

[JackSlater]

I can't imagine that Lindros was the true leader of the 1998 Canadian Olympic team with Gretzky in the room.

As a side point, I wonder if Lindros would have been captain if Mario Lemieux had been available and on the team. I lean no, but Lindros over Gretzky in and of itself is already very surprising.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Its a trend of rebuilding. It was the same in the 80s. Young captains like Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman and Sakic.

i think it can be a way to signal to the room that the lazy or toxic vets don’t own the room

trevor linden would be one example. sure you could have given a solid 30 year old guy like doug lidster the c for another tear or two after smyl leaves. good guy, future coach, won’t be a problem. but there’s a reason pat quinn traded dan quinn away. there’s a reason why he turned over the entire roster over four years. that’s why the kiddo became captain. as much a message to all the other young guys that this is your team, you lead, do not learn from the dead weight just because they have experience. not all experience is good experience.

there’s a famous story of the great bill russell telling young kenny smith that he wasn’t allowed to sot in the back of the bus with the vets on the sacramento kings because they don’t mind losing. so he had to spend his rookie season sitting next to russell.

i assume it was the same for yzerman coming onto the dead wings.

the opposite is the canucks resisting making bo horvat captain after henrik sedin retired. jim benning and co are doubling down and saying we live and die with our toxic lazy vet core of eriksson, sutter, gudbranson before he was traded, etc.