Proposal: [NYR/VAN]

[BCNate]

I'd be surprised if he landed a first. Weirder things have happened, no doubt, I just don't think he's getting one. I made a similar offer from the Devils for Virtanen as the Gauthier + 2 so for me, this seems about right value wise, and honestly, Gauthier's a better prospect than I put in this package.

I agree that Gauthier and a 2nd is a pretty fair offer, but NYR don't have a 2nd this year.

 

[aufheben]

Are you trying to rile Canucks fans? Andersson is a garbage asset. He’s not even really an asset.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Jake is built fir playing a power forward game, but he doesn’t play like one. He’s more of a passive perimeter player offensively. I think Benning would be very happy with a second round pick for Jake’s rights.

Same exact way Gauthier plays.

I could say it differently, if you'd like. We don't need to add any more young wingers.

 

[Fatass]

Same exact way Gauthier plays.

I could say it differently, if you'd like. We don't need to add any more young wingers.

I’m a Canuck’s fan, but I’m not a fan of how Jake plays.

 

[n8]

Are you trying to rile Canucks fans? Andersson is a garbage asset. He’s not even really an asset.

he's like a weird pseudo asset. like one of those quarter gachapan toy dispensers. He's in the same boat as Poolparty. Both have had success at the AHL level. Both lit it up in the SHL last season (Lias in a smaller sample size). Both high draft picks. Lias is 1 year younger. Developed under the right coach with the right players, he could become a great player. I think acquiring Lias is a gamble but it can still pay off. He's only 21 for Pete's sake. He's not garbage but he's also not enough to start a thread about.

OP, saying Lias + is basically saying "I'm too lazy to think of a proposal."

 

[604]

You think Virtanen is worth a first+ by himself?

Anderson is worth a 2nd/3rd. 2022 1st round is looking like the best draft in a long time. How did you come up with this computation of value?

In Virtanen, I see a 24 year-old, 20-20 guy who is a 6'1", 226 lbs, power winger that skates like the wind (2nd fastest player on the team I think).

Then I compare him to Lias Anderson, whom you say is worth a 2nd/3rd despite the fact that he didn't make the NHL team, was bad on the AHL team, and left for the SHL.

So if Lias is worth a 2nd or 3rd how is Virtanen not worth a 1st+?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

In Virtanen, I see a 24 year-old, 20-20 guy who is a 6'1", 226 lbs, power winger that skates like the wind (2nd fastest player on the team I think).

Then I compare him to Lias Anderson, whom you say is worth a 2nd/3rd despite the fact that he didn't make the NHL team, was bad on the AHL team, and left for the SHL.

So if Lias is worth a 2nd or 3rd how is Virtanen not worth a 1st+?

You are trying to compute value. You can like Virtanen as much as you want. If the guy isn’t even a top six forward, I find it hard to see him returning a 1st round pick+.

What if we had Andersson playing 7 minutes per game on the fourth line? He has some value. He might not be worth his past pick slot, but an effective AHL/SHL former top ten pick whose had a rough start to his NHL career isn’t instantly worth a late round pick.

 

[Johnsie19]

I agree, that’s why I want Virtanen on my team lol; I’m not sure if I’m hallucinating but I’m 99% sure I heard some Vancouver TSN source say GM’s around the league think he‘s only worth a 5th, pretty sure the hockey guy mentioned that in a video too
What package do you think would be a fair deal to send Virtanen to the Rangers? I wouldn’t be surprised if Vancouver wants Andersson as part of that package due to his chemistry with Pettersson and being a high draft pedigree needing a change of scenery too

Any player with talent has chemistry with Pettersson. Lias could be a fun player to roll the dice on for someone but he isn't overly intriguing to Vancouver considering our organizational strength at wing. Virtanen I do believe will be traded this offseason though. Could be in a package with Demko perhaps. We will be looking for a defenseman most likely.

 

[zar]

After tonight’s game, the Canuck’s fans will want 1OA for Virtanen. He did have a good game though.

 

[Johnsie19]

After tonight’s game, the Canuck’s fans will want 1OA for Virtanen. He did have a good game though.

He is a wildcard if nothing else. Imagine he put it all together! highly doubt he will but if he does.

 

[Cogburn]

You are trying to compute value. You can like Virtanen as much as you want. If the guy isn’t even a top six forward, I find it hard to see him returning a 1st round pick+.

What if we had Andersson playing 7 minutes per game on the fourth line? He has some value. He might not be worth his past pick slot, but an effective AHL/SHL former top ten pick whose had a rough start to his NHL career isn’t instantly worth a late round pick.

Sounds a lot like Virtanen. Except he's far enough along that we can ignore draft pedigree and base our evaluation on what he's done in the NHL. Andersson hasn't built a track record yet.+

As for Andersson not being worth a late round pick, what about Juolevi? Or Puljujarvi? Or Dal Colle? Or Ho Sang? Or Lazar? Or Yakupov? Or so many other early round flubs? They are all still assets, but no where near a key piece in a trade for someone that is able to contribute now. At what point did these players become "lost prospects"? I mean both of my first two examples were drafted a year before Andersson.

If New Jersey offered Zacha (not that they would), both early firsts that haven't panned out as expected, that's a closer trade than Andersson.

 

[Cogburn]

He is a wildcard if nothing else. Imagine he put it all together! highly doubt he will but if he does.

If his production plateaus here, game to game consistency not withstanding, I'm calling that an enormous win.

 

[604]

You are trying to compute value. You can like Virtanen as much as you want. If the guy isn’t even a top six forward, I find it hard to see him returning a 1st round pick+.

What if we had Andersson playing 7 minutes per game on the fourth line? He has some value. He might not be worth his past pick slot, but an effective AHL/SHL former top ten pick whose had a rough start to his NHL career isn’t instantly worth a late round pick.

How about this, Virtanen would be 4th on NYR in goals and 6th among fwds in pts while playing 3rd line minutes on the Canucks. Also has the semi-rare skillset of being big, fast, and a hitter...his stats, age and size are the same as Kreider 5 years ago - except Kreider put those stats up with top 6 deployment.

Why do you think the Canucks would value that lower than a 1st?

 

[John Johnson]

After tonight’s game, the Canuck’s fans will want 1OA for Virtanen. He did have a good game though.

Maybe we should trade him to the Oilers then they have plenty of 1st overalls to throw out right?

 

[TGWL]

After tonight’s game, the Canuck’s fans will want 1OA for Virtanen. He did have a good game though.

Yeah, he played well. Allen probably should have stopped that goal, and the defense should have stopped... Who am I kidding, Pettersson completely toyed with them there.

 

[Johnsie19]

If his production plateaus here, game to game consistency not withstanding, I'm calling that an enormous win.

I'd have to agree. The only problem with a game that erratic he is vulnerable to just fall off the map at some stage. Consistency is the name of the game in the NHL.

 

[BCNate]

In Virtanen, I see a 24 year-old, 20-20 guy who is a 6'1", 226 lbs, power winger that skates like the wind (2nd fastest player on the team I think).

Then I compare him to Lias Anderson, whom you say is worth a 2nd/3rd despite the fact that he didn't make the NHL team, was bad on the AHL team, and left for the SHL.

So if Lias is worth a 2nd or 3rd how is Virtanen not worth a 1st+?

Virtanen produced very well this year while getting ~12 mins of ice time per game. I don't have time to look it all up, but i'd assume that there weren't too many 40 point 3rd liners in the NHL this season. If he were to get 2nd line minutes, ~15-16 per game, I feel he would take another step up in production. He played well in that role this season and produced when given the opportunty.

Hopefully we get to see him play with EP for a while, That was dismal watching Petterson have to line up next to Louie last game.

 

[zcaptain]

How about this, Virtanen would be 4th on NYR in goals and 6th among fwds in pts while playing 3rd line minutes on the Canucks. Also has the semi-rare skillset of being big, fast, and a hitter...his stats, age and size are the same as Kreider 5 years ago - except Kreider put those stats up with top 6 deployment.

Why do you think the Canucks would value that lower than a 1st?

I think this is what people have to answer, when putting value on Virtanen........exactly that.....

Virtanen doesn't get you a top 10 pick, but he gets you a 11 to 15 pick straight up, and a 1st and a plus for anything less.
People put too much value on these picks, as a lot do not ever get to that level, if even playing in the NHL.

 

[Cogburn]

I'd have to agree. The only problem with a game that erratic he is vulnerable to just fall off the map at some stage. Consistency is the name of the game in the NHL.

Too true, but if incosistsnt Virtanen pots a scoring pace of 20 goals a season, I'm content taking the good games with the bad.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Sounds a lot like Virtanen. Except he's far enough along that we can ignore draft pedigree and base our evaluation on what he's done in the NHL. Andersson hasn't built a track record yet.+

As for Andersson not being worth a late round pick, what about Juolevi? Or Puljujarvi? Or Dal Colle? Or Ho Sang? Or Lazar? Or Yakupov? Or so many other early round flubs? They are all still assets, but no where near a key piece in a trade for someone that is able to contribute now. At what point did these players become "lost prospects"? I mean both of my first two examples were drafted a year before Andersson.

If New Jersey offered Zacha (not that they would), both early firsts that haven't panned out as expected, that's a closer trade than Andersson.

By my count, there are 18 2017 draft picks that are established in the NHL to a level that Andersson isn't. And it's all subjective, but if you counted, you would probably get a pretty similar number to what I did. I don't think of those not already established in the NHL that you would find two rounds (62 players) that have a better chance of being an NHL'er or good NHL'er than Andersson. I don't see how he's not worth a 2nd or 3rd round pick, unless you believe that prospects trade value isn't directly proportional to where they roughly stand in their draft class.

 

[Boondock]

I would have zero interest in Lias Andersson from a Vancouver perspective. I think it's important to build a team around character humans and there are some red flags around Lias Andersson. First the metal throwing speaks to a level of immaturity and a lack of self control. Every year there is a losing team in the WJC, and every year a team of emotional and upset teenagers have to watch someone else get a gold metal and yet almost never do you get a reaction like Lias'. Follow that up with poor play in the NHL and a second questionable event when he didn't want to play in the AHL and forced his way back to Sweden. I don't have any interest in dealing with this type of headache. We have had Hodgson, Dahlen and Tryamkin pull similar stuff and it puts the team behind developmentally and is bad for overall team chemistry. If Andersson had unbelievable stats some of his issues would be overlooked but he hasn't been great on the ice. He had 51 pts over 89 games in 4 different AHL season and was a combined -37. He has 66 games in the NHL and has 3 goals, 9 points and is a -20. I understand he could still mature and improve as he is young enough, but I would have no interest in using assets to bring that player to my team.

As for JV for LA - the plus from NYR would need to be the full value of Virtanen, whatever that is (no not a 5th despite someone's insider info). We would only view Andersson as an exchange of contracts if it was needed to complete the deal.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

How about this, Virtanen would be 4th on NYR in goals and 6th among fwds in pts while playing 3rd line minutes on the Canucks. Also has the semi-rare skillset of being big, fast, and a hitter...his stats, age and size are the same as Kreider 5 years ago - except Kreider put those stats up with top 6 deployment.

Why do you think the Canucks would value that lower than a 1st?

I'm not even criticizing Virtanen. I like the player. I think quoting a 1st round pick+ is a big reach.

And the Rangers have no depth outside of our top 5 forwards, so being 6th best isn't that great. It's also not someone we'd need when we have guys like Kakko and Lafreniere, who either weren't on the team this year or scored less than Virtanen, that will eventually score more than Virtanen is scoring now. It also doesn't make sense to compute his value based on where he'd stand during one season for a team that had no forward depth.

If I take your argument at face value that Virtanen's level is about a 6th forward, which isn't an unreasonable argument (but he might be more of a 7th or so right now), are you suggesting that a young 6th forward with RFA rights this offseason is worth a 1st round pick+ in this offseason? We don't even have to use Virtanen as the barometer. I don't think that player would be worth what you are suggesting.

 

[Star Ocean]

Virtanen is overvauled. Outside of 1 game he has been garbage in the playoffs. 2 points in 8 games with 0 in 7 games in a row. Some posters write like he is Eric Lindros.

 

[biturbo19]

Really makes no sense to me, on either side.


If the Canucks decide to move on from Virtanen...it'd have to be for a young defenceman of similar standing/potential/upside. The Canucks really need the sort of speed and size combo with skill, that Jake brings to the table when he's motivated. To move him, it'd have to be because they're getting an even more needed piece on the back end, that can contribute to the Top-4 on a reasonably priced contract and continue to grow with the young core.

I like Lias Andersson, and i think he's potentially a great "buy low" reclamation project for someone. But he's not the type of player the Canucks need.



And from a Rangers perspective...they already have a ton of sorta big/power wingers. Kreider signed long-term, Kravtsov, Kakko. Plus Gauthier and Buchnevich who are at least big, powerful wingers...even if they're not real "power forwards" in style. Virtanen is really not what the Rangers are potentially lacking for the future.

 

[Boondock]

I'm not even criticizing Virtanen. I like the player. I think quoting a 1st round pick+ is a big reach.

And the Rangers have no depth outside of our top 5 forwards, so being 6th best isn't that great. It's also not someone we'd need when we have guys like Kakko and Lafreniere, who either weren't on the team this year or scored less than Virtanen, that will eventually score more than Virtanen is scoring now. It also doesn't make sense to compute his value based on where he'd stand during one season for a team that had no forward depth.

If I take your argument at face value that Virtanen's level is about a 6th forward, which isn't an unreasonable argument (but he might be more of a 7th or so right now), are you suggesting that a young 6th forward with RFA rights this offseason is worth a 1st round pick+ in this offseason? We don't even have to use Virtanen as the barometer. I don't think that player would be worth what you are suggesting.

I agree with you that asking for a 1st for JV may be too rich but using your own logic i just counted roughly 30 players that I would take before Virtanen from the 2014 draft class right now, so this would put his value at late 1st round pick. I'm not against trading Virtanen, but it would need to be a deal that improved the team or provided so much cap space that the Canucks couldn't refuse. Otherwise no reason to trade a 24 year old winger coming off a 20/20 ish season.