Confirmed with Link: Nyquist re-signed for 4 years

[WingedWheel1987]

Nyquist's playoff production will improve when he isn't on a team that is designed to lose in the playoffs.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Nyquist's playoff production will improve when he isn't on a team that is designed to lose in the playoffs.

Or he can be a part of the solution himself.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Or he can be a part of the solution himself.

Gotta get elite talent before he can be part of the solution.

 

[Bench]

Then the argument you are presenting is 'Nyquist isn't a playoff performer but since most other people aren't either we should ignore that with him.'

I find that argument a less than convincing effort towards explaining how Nyquist is great/elite.

Also, I think other guys actually did meet or exceed production expectations. Datsyuk, Tatar, Sheahan, Glendening, Miller and Ericsson this year certainly. The 13-14 playoff was an offensive dumpster fire to be sure... but shouldn't a great/elite goalscorer be able to fix that, at least a little bit?

Let's just cross 4th liners like Miller and Glendening off the expectation list, okay? Let's have a real discussion about guys who should score.

Tatar 4 points in 12 games.
Nyquist 2 points in 12 games.
Sheahan 3 points in 12 games.

These are the last two years. It's awful across the board. The margin between the top and bottom is insignificant. So either they are all terrible, or it's been a collective team effort of bad production. To single out 1 guy is ignoring every problem the Wings have had winning playoff series.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Gotta get elite talent before he can be part of the solution.

Right. He will never be anything playing with hacks like Zetterberg.

 

[Heaton]

Right. He will never be anything playing with hacks like Zetterberg.

Did Z play well in the Tampa series?

 

[Frk It]

Did Z play well in the Tampa series?

Did he play in the Tampa series? Don't remember seeing him.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Gotta get elite talent before he can be part of the solution.

I suppose if we will be resigned to the fact Nyquist will be a passenger for the entirety of his contract, then your argument makes sense.

I think he can be a bit better than that.

 

[Shaman464]

I suppose if we will be resigned to the fact Nyquist will be a passenger for the entirety of his contract, then your argument makes sense.

I think he can be a bit better than that.

I don't see Nyquist as a spark plug. I wouldn't call him a passenger, but, I wouldn't say hes especially dangerous on his own. If he were, he'd be a 6-7 million dollar player, not a 4-5. But you need the guys who can, given time and space, make good things happen.

 

[Vladdy84]

Really? This is still going on?

Gus is an excellent player that's only going to get better. I remember him being the hottest goal scorer in the entire NHL not too long ago for a couple month span or something. He's awesome. And a key cog and very important factor in our core moving forward.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Really? This is still going on?

Gus is an excellent player that's only going to get better. I remember him being the hottest goal scorer in the entire NHL not too long ago for a couple month span or something. He's awesome. And a key cog and very important factor in our core moving forward.

I wouldn't argue he isn't a core guy. That is why I hope he performs in the playoffs someday.

 

[HockeyinHD]

I can't believe we've got anti-Nyquist people here.

Person A thinks Nyquist will score 50 goals.

Person B thinks Nyquist will score 40 goals.

Person C thinks Nyquist will score 30 goals.

Person D thinks Nyquist will score 25ish goals.

B is anti-Nyquist compared to A, C is anti-Nyquist compared to B, and D is anti-Nyquist compared to everyone.

The only way to really be pro-Nyquist is to say he's going to score 60, I guess.

In what world is 4.75 being paid great/elite RFA money?

When only 11 forwards in the whole NHL make more? That's probably a good place to start.

Everyone one of them is a first round pick too.

He has basically compared Nyquist to the top dogs (age 21-23) in the league.

So Nyquist should be compared to second-tier RFA forwards?

Taken out of context it would appear Nyquist is massively overpaid. Moreso this goes to show that Detroit is the only team to have an RFA outside the first round play well enough to get paid.

I don't think Nyquist is massively overpaid. I think Detroit does a great job at drafting. Tatar will be the next forward to earn a Nyquist-sized deal, and there are more than a couple guys in the system who could be plausibly assumed to be in line for something similar.

Let's just cross 4th liners like Miller and Glendening off the expectation list, okay? Let's have a real discussion about guys who should score.

Indeed. Let us cross off the list guys who shouldn't be expected to score, yet score similarly to Nyquist, so we can instead focus on other guys who should score, who by the way also still score more than Nyquist.

Actually, lets just cross those guys off the list too, because...

To single out 1 guy is ignoring every problem the Wings have had winning playoff series.

I think you're confusing pointing out a guy who has an issue (so far) with focusing all criticism and blame for three years of playoff losses on one guy.

To say that Nyquist has a problem (so far) with playoff production is not to simultaneously say that he's the only guy with that problem. Or even the worst guy. If you can't point out one guy's flaws without having to put in a paragraph also including every other guys flaws without someone 'but but but'-ing you, that's going to make for some long posts.

Gotta get elite talent before he can be part of the solution.

So your argument is that Nyquist is a complimentary part which requires support and not a central part that provides the support?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I suppose if we will be resigned to the fact Nyquist will be a passenger for the entirety of his contract, then your argument makes sense.

I think he can be a bit better than that.

He is a good player, but if he is your best player, you are in trouble.

Wingers just don't impact the game enough. There are exceptions like Patrick Kane, but he has Toews and Keith.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

So your argument is that Nyquist is a complimentary part which requires support and not a central part that provides the support?

Nyquist is a player that should be supporting a core. See Patrick Sharp.

Nyquist is not a core player. It would be a mistake to treat him like he is.

Nyquist is complementary talent.

 

[DatsDeking]

Gus is a good player, there's very little to argue that he isn't. The problem with his playoff performance and the rest of the team's playoff performance, for that matter, is that the Red Wings were set up and coached as a defense first hockey team in the playoffs. Each game, defense was emphasized and prioritized over anything else. The strategy was to play the best defensive game possible and to bank on out hustling a tired team's line OR letting your elite talent (Datsyuk most recently) do the work. With a defense heavy strategy and style like that it's little surprise that our regular season heroes didn't show up. Tats did a bit, true, but he's also playing with Datsyuk which was/is the best playoff player for the Wings these past three series because of Zs regression.

 

[HockeyinHD]

the Red Wings were set up and coached as a defense first hockey team in the playoffs.

The question is whether that is a change from how they were set up and coached in the regular season.

 

[DatsDeking]

The question is whether that is a change from how they were set up and coached in the regular season.

That's absolutely true. From a simple eye test though, I would say yes, it is a change. We see more 4th line starts in the POs and more blocked shots on average.

In total fairness blocked shots from playoffs vs the regular season is skewed bc some teams inherently shoot more than others and if you're playing such a team your avg blocked shots, assuming you do block them haha, will be higher than the league avg you get from the season. Also, and I have no real facts to back this, I feel the 4th line got more Offensive zone starts in the POs as opposed to the regular season.

 

[InjuredChoker]

He's getting paid like a great/elite player who is still an RFA. Is there a long list of RFA forwards making more than him? I can find 11 in the whole NHL. Tarasenko, O'Reilly, Stamkos, Nugent-Hopkins, Hall, Duchesne, Sequin, Skinner, Landeskog, Tavares, Kane.

So, yeah... when those are the only RFAs making more than you, you're being paid like an elite player who is an RFA.

kopitar. saad. benn. eberle. neal. couture. lucic. gagner.

stepan soon.

that's 20.

adjusting for % of the cap there would be even more.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

27 goals and 55 points is so valuable nowadays. That is basically first line production.

 

[HockeyinHD]

kopitar. saad. benn. eberle. neal. couture. lucic. gagner.

stepan soon.

that's 20.

adjusting for % of the cap there would be even more.

You understand we're talking about RFA's, right?

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

You understand we're talking about RFA's, right?

All of those guys are still on their RFA contracts if I'm not mistaken.

 

[HockeyinHD]

That's absolutely true. From a simple eye test though, I would say yes, it is a change. We see more 4th line starts in the POs and more blocked shots on average.

I agree. We see defensive intensity go up all across the league in the playoffs... but this is part of the reason there are guys who do well in the regular season and then less well in the playoffs. They have games that allow them to score more in the more open regular season, but as the ice narrows and the windows get smaller those games don't translate as well or effectively.

Does that describe Nyquist? So far, it does. Hopefully it will cease doing so after this year.

Also, and I have no real facts to back this, I feel the 4th line got more Offensive zone starts in the POs as opposed to the regular season.

I think that's more true when a team is leading than when they are tied or behind. Meaning, in the playoffs a team is more likely to go totally defensive with a lead and rely on their best defensive group even in an offensive zone FO than they would be during the regular season.

That might just be something I've gotten drilled into my skull from watching this years playoffs, though. It seemed like teams went into total rope-a-dope mode as soon as they got even a 1 goal lead.

 

[InjuredChoker]

You understand we're talking about RFA's, right?

they were RFAs when they signed their deals.

and nyquist's contract isn't really RFA deal as it has 2 UFA years in it.

 

[HockeyinHD]

they were RFAs when they signed their deals.

and nyquist's contract isn't really RFA deal as it has 2 UFA years in it.

Of course it's an RFA deal. If he was a UFA would his AAV have been higher? Of course it would have been. That makes his RFA status relevant to the valuation of the contract.

Also, this is Nyquist's first RFA contract. Some of those guys already had one multi year RFA deal and then hit it big with their second RFA deal. Couture's first RFA deal was 2 years, for example, before he had his big multi year second RFA deal (that also ate up some UFA time).

Due to Nyquist going the college route (and being in Detroit), his UFA status was going to be determined by age and not years of experience.

In addition, the terms of those deals play a part, too. In order to get Nyquist to go out 6 years, two more into his UFA eligibility window, as many of the deals you've mentioned are, what do you imagine the AAV would have had to be? Higher than 4.75, I'd guess.

Nyquist's being compensated on a par with the absolute best RFAs in the NHL.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Of course it's an RFA deal. If he was a UFA would his AAV have been higher? Of course it would have been. That makes his RFA status relevant to the valuation of the contract.

it's not exclusively RFA deal (nor UFA) deal. RFA deal only has RFA years on it and would remove many comparables. someone like johansen should be paid much more but has only RFA years on his deal and thus isn't paid more.

Also, this is Nyquist's first RFA contract. Some of those guys already had one multi year RFA deal and then hit it big with their second RFA deal. Couture's first RFA deal was 2 years, for example, before he had his big multi year second RFA deal (that also ate up some UFA time).

so... nyquist's 2 year contract extension in 2013 didn't happen?

what happened to couture is exactly what happened to nyquist. ELC. 2 yr, RFA deal. longer extension that has RFA and UFA years on it.

Due to Nyquist going the college route (and being in Detroit), his UFA status was going to be determined by age and not years of experience.

In addition, the terms of those deals play a part, too. In order to get Nyquist to go out 6 years, two more into his UFA eligibility window, as many of the deals you've mentioned are, what do you imagine the AAV would have had to be? Higher than 4.75, I'd guess.

Nyquist's being compensated on a par with the absolute best RFAs in the NHL.

yes, it would probably be higher. and would pass guys like gagner but stay behind many others.

he's not on par with absolute best RFAs because then we'd have to include dman and goalies and there are many who make more than him. not even RFA forwards as there are quite many who make more than him and compared to how many forwards there are like that (similar contract length and UFA/RFA years on contract).. well, there's not too many of them.

ok, i guess that depends on the definition of 'on par with absolute best'.. so if it's at the top 20% or so, yeah i guess he is.