Nylander and Kadri: 8th./7th overall picks

[hfdshdh]

Some people thought Kadri would be the best player ever

.......................

Why is this thread even still open? It's just a receptacle for the dumbest of the dumb the HF Leafs board has to offer, beginning with the factually inaccurate title.

 

[Gabriel426]

Don't understand why fans just want to trade away players like JVR and Kadri. Not like they signed overpaid deals or playing like crap. To me JVR and Kadri are players that will produce when they are around better players, and not players who are capable of leading the team by themselves game after game.

I would only trade JVR and Kadri for 1st round lottery pick, bc the chances of drafting and developing players like JVR and Kadri in late 1st round or 2nd round is very difficult.

 

[Duckrider]

Don't understand why fans just want to trade away players like JVR and Kadri. Not like they signed overpaid deals or playing like crap. To me JVR and Kadri are players that will produce when they are around better players, and not players who are capable of leading the team by themselves game after game.

I would only trade JVR and Kadri for 1st round lottery pick, bc the chances of drafting and developing players like JVR and Kadri in late 1st round or 2nd round is very difficult.

This! A while back I read a article showing a comparison of Nylander's and Sundin's stats growing up in the same leagues. And for the most part Nylanders were better. If he becomes Sundin light...

 

[ULF_55]

Honestly it's a bit sad to see people compare and demean our prospects and players like that. Kadri, and Rielly of course, for me is one of the few good stories from our draft cycles in the past 5-7 years.

Naz was drafted realistically with an aim to become a top six forward for us, he has turned out to be just that, 1c or 2c at worst (also think he could have been an amazing winger at one point).

Nylander and marner are similar if not higher potential picks and its refreshing to see us giving them a proper development plan, we still have to see what they do in nhl though! It's a big change for a lot of players so you will have to wait and see what happens.

From the looks of it, if we are looking to compete in 3 years time. We should not feel any need to trade or lose any prospects to acquire an elite centre, a lineup with Naz, Nylander, and Marner sounds mouth watering.

There is nothing wrong with the Kadri selection. He's currently 7th. for points from that draft, 17 points in front of Schenn . Would he go 7th. in a redraft? No idea, don't care.

I'm sure everyone hoped he could become the missing 1st. line center, but you can't be disappointed in a 2nd. line center.

However, everyone can be excited and still understand potential is only potential. Nylander might have the potential to be the next Datsyuk, but he isn't anywhere near that today. Way to soon to know where these guys will end up, but as recently reported, we should have a good idea at around age 23 if they're going to hit their potential.

Like all prospects, maybe we pencil them into the line-up at 18, but that's why there's an eraser at the other end.

 

[egd27]

Don't understand why fans just want to trade away players like JVR and Kadri. Not like they signed overpaid deals or playing like crap. To me JVR and Kadri are players that will produce when they are around better players, and not players who are capable of leading the team by themselves game after game.

I would only trade JVR and Kadri for 1st round lottery pick, bc the chances of drafting and developing players like JVR and Kadri in late 1st round or 2nd round is very difficult.

Far too many posters believe that prospects and draft picks are always preferable to actual NHL players.

 

[William Hylander]

This! A while back I read a article showing a comparison of Nylander's and Sundin's stats growing up in the same leagues. And for the most part Nylanders were better. If he becomes Sundin light...

It's simply not enough to look at only point totals. You have to look at scoring between the eras.

I don't have access to see how many goals were scored on Sundin's teams vs Nylander. You would have to figure out proportionally how many points nylander has, in comparison to Sundin.

Then you could make this statement. The eras have changed so much to simply say "Nylander scored more at the same age therefore nylander is better"

 

[ULF_55]

Don't understand why fans just want to trade away players like JVR and Kadri. Not like they signed overpaid deals or playing like crap. To me JVR and Kadri are players that will produce when they are around better players, and not players who are capable of leading the team by themselves game after game.

I would only trade JVR and Kadri for 1st round lottery pick, bc the chances of drafting and developing players like JVR and Kadri in late 1st round or 2nd round is very difficult.

Hope.

van Riemsdyk can produce when with the right talent, perhaps capable of being a 1st. liner.
Kadri is solidifying himself as a 2nd. line center.

versus

A 7th. round pick could be Zetterberg.

 

[William Hylander]

It's simply not enough to look at only point totals. You have to look at scoring between the eras.

I don't have access to see how many goals were scored on Sundin's teams vs Nylander. You would have to figure out proportionally how many points nylander has, in comparison to Sundin.

Then you could make this statement. The eras have changed so much to simply say "Nylander scored more at the same age therefore nylander is better"

When I ran the analysis through, according to hockey db in Mats 18 year old season in SEL his team scored 158 goals vs 127 for Nylander's 18 year old season.

Nylander scored significantly more in his draft +1 year then Sundin. However....

Next season Mats scored 59 points in the NHL and currently Nylander is scoring above a ppg in the AHL. Although there is a way to equivalence what 59 NHL points would be over a full season it would take far too much work.

Nylander is a good prospect however I think that Mats draft +2 year is significantly more impressive that anything Nylander could do in the AHL. Considering kadri was ppg in the AHL and he scored 50 points in his best season I think Nylander would need to lead the league in scoring to approach Mats in prospect status.

 

[The Podium]

Far too many posters believe that prospects and draft picks are always preferable to actual NHL players.

Not necessarily. I believe in trading JVR but not Kadri. Kadri's value is higher to Toronto than in a trade, but JVR value is higher in a trade than to Toronto. JVR at his 4.25 mill contract is a bargain, but Toronto wonot be competitive over the span of that contract and thus it provides them no benefit at all. To a contender or team on a budget however, adding a top line forward with such a small cap hit is a huge advantage.

 

[thewave]

Not necessarily. I believe in trading JVR but not Kadri. Kadri's value is higher to Toronto than in a trade, but JVR value is higher in a trade than to Toronto. JVR at his 4.25 mill contract is a bargain, but Toronto wonot be competitive over the span of that contract and thus it provides them no benefit at all. To a contender or team on a budget however, adding a top line forward with such a small cap hit is a huge advantage.

In my hockey fantasy world I would love to be able to get Forsberg for JVR... I admit I just want to hear -Forsberg to Nylander and back to Forsberg, he shoots he scores!

 

[RoadWarrior]

When I ran the analysis through, according to hockey db in Mats 18 year old season in SEL his team scored 158 goals vs 127 for Nylander's 18 year old season.

Nylander scored significantly more in his draft +1 year then Sundin. However....

Next season Mats scored 59 points in the NHL and currently Nylander is scoring above a ppg in the AHL. Although there is a way to equivalence what 59 NHL points would be over a full season it would take far too much work.

Nylander is a good prospect however I think that Mats draft +2 year is significantly more impressive that anything Nylander could do in the AHL. Considering kadri was ppg in the AHL and he scored 50 points in his best season I think Nylander would need to lead the league in scoring to approach Mats in prospect status.

Nylander's current NHLe rating is 45 points over a full season (highest of all AHL players btw) which would make him the #1 center on the leafs.

He's miles ahead of Kadri particularly in physical development and on a similar track as Mats.

 

[Duckrider]

Nylander's current NHLe rating is 45 points over a full season (highest of all AHL players btw) which would make him the #1 center on the leafs.

He's miles ahead of Kadri particularly in physical development and on a similar track as Mats.

The fact that there is a comparison between them should tell people how special he could be. But for this comparison to continue Nylander would have to develop to his upper most potential. Possible but not likely.

 

[Gabriel426]

Hope.

van Riemsdyk can produce when with the right talent, perhaps capable of being a 1st. liner.
Kadri is solidifying himself as a 2nd. line center.

versus

A 7th. round pick could be Zetterberg.

That's the thing, Hope. Why not hope JVR can turn the corner or Kadri becoming a beast. Instead, some would rather hope a 3rd round pick can be a better player than say JVR and Kadri.

Even in the current systems, only Marner, Nylander, and Kapanen have great chance in becoming better player than JVR and Kadri, yet all three of them were drafted in the 1st round, 4th, 7th and 22nd. Kapanen only dropped out of top ten bc of a bad WJC.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Don't understand why fans just want to trade away players like JVR and Kadri. Not like they signed overpaid deals or playing like crap. To me JVR and Kadri are players that will produce when they are around better players, and not players who are capable of leading the team by themselves game after game.

I would only trade JVR and Kadri for 1st round lottery pick, bc the chances of drafting and developing players like JVR and Kadri in late 1st round or 2nd round is very difficult.

It has as much to do with how far away we are from winning anything.

Kadri only has 1 year till UFA rights. JVR has 3 years till his deal expires. We aren't winning anything in that timeline.

We aren't winning anything with Kadri, JVR over the next few years and by the time we might they could walk for nothing. If we keep them them by the time this team is ready to start winning anything in 3, 4 or even 5 years from now they'll both be starting to head out of their primes well being in their top cap hit years because of UFA rights.

To get quality assets we'll have to give quality assets. JVR, Kadri, Gardiner are the best trade assets we have to get quality assets in return.

Not many people wanted us to trade CMac, Kulemin, Grabo a few years ago and take a further step back but it would have been much better if we did.

JVR, Kadri, Gardiner aren't high end enough pieces to build a team around and exploring what they'd bring back in return well opening up cap space certainly needs to be explored with where this team is at.

 

[highslot]

holy


Datsyuk has been a ppg player for the last decade, and is one of the most elite defensive forwards of all time. Only Bob Gainey has had more Selke wins with 4... and the guys that are tied with Datsyuk at 3, as well as Gainey, have nowhere near the offensive ability.

If Nylander becomes Datsyuk, he's a steal at 8th.

Hell, he'd likely be worthy of 1st overall in his draft, and would have been in competition with McDavid/Eichel.

Datsyuk is a generational player, right up there with Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin.

selke wins are pretty arbitrary imo. the best defensive forward doesn't always get the most points. i don't remember cavalini of st. louis ever winning a selke, but he was like a plus 53 (i know a lot of people don't like +/- but when there is a team gap of probably over 30 points, there should be some meaning).

i was referring more to joffrey's playing style but i predict he will get .8 points per game career wise. so a datsyuk with less firepower. 2 way and stealing pucks with great speed all star vision and passing.

however, datsyuk is not a generational player imo. once a generation?

i'd say gretzky, lemieux and orr are generational players. maybe there is an argument for potvin.

even jagr wouldn't be considered a generational player and he lead the league in scoring. crosby is considered by many to be generational, but i feel that term gets thrown around too much. crosby is the best player in this generation i guess, but he's nowhere near lemieux level or gretz. datsyuk is not in crosby's category.

 

[Gabriel426]

It has as much to do with how far away we are from winning anything.

Kadri only has 1 year till UFA rights. JVR has 3 years till his deal expires. We aren't winning anything in that timeline.

We aren't winning anything with Kadri, JVR over the next few years and by the time we might they could walk for nothing. If we keep them them by the time this team is ready to start winning anything in 3, 4 or even 5 years from now they'll both be starting to head out of their primes well being in their top cap hit years because of UFA rights.

To get quality assets we'll have to give quality assets. JVR, Kadri, Gardiner are the best trade assets we have to get quality assets in return.

Not many people wanted us to trade CMac, Kulemin, Grabo a few years ago and take a further step back but it would have been much better if we did.

JVR, Kadri, Gardiner aren't high end enough pieces to build a team around and exploring what they'd bring back in return well opening up cap space certainly needs to be explored with where this team is at.

My point has more to do with trading them for value rather than trading them for the sake of trading them.
I mean if Leafs traded JVR for Saad. That's awesome. Or Kadri for Saad, that's great. But not JVR or Kadri for a second rounder, bc as I mentioned, players like JVR and Kadri usually don't come in late 1st or 2nd.

 

[Durrr]

My point has more to do with trading them for value rather than trading them for the sake of trading them.
I mean if Leafs traded JVR for Saad. That's awesome. Or Kadri for Saad, that's great. But not JVR or Kadri for a second rounder, bc as I mentioned, players like JVR and Kadri usually don't come in late 1st or 2nd.

I think the two players mentioned are very different scenarios. Kadri is a GTA/Ontario born player that from the sounds of it loves being here, and can and will provide value here long-term if he rises up to the occasion and sees eye to eye with management.

For JVR, he's an American born player playing on a steal of a contract for what he's capable of. Problem is, will he be looking to stay? Pretty hard to predict if JVR will be happy here long-term, and if the Leafs have him in the long term plans. If neither party sees a long-term fit here it's definatly in our best interest to try and pull of a good deal for JVR. A deadline hopeful contender will probably overpay for JVR due to his cap hit going forward and the fact that he's not a pure rental.

Problem with most people is that they just want to move these guys for any futures for whatever reason. We've already traded Kessel for a lackluster package, you'd think that people would realize how difficult it is to get good value.

 

[Pi]

I remember what it was like on here when Kadri was drafted. There were a lot of people saying he could on the same level as Duchene and Tavares. The same people were saying that Schenn was going to be the next Adam Foote. A lot of it is the media's fault, but some people on here have incredibly unrealistic expectations of prospects. Nylander has the tools to be great, but he could just as easily become the next Sam Gagner.

I also remember a lot of Avs fans gloating that Duchene > Tavares for the first couple of years. Fans are going to be fans.

The gap between Duchene and Tavares is much larger than the gap between Kadri and Duchene.

 

[The Podium]

I remember what it was like on here when Kadri was drafted. There were a lot of people saying he could on the same level as Duchene and Tavares. The same people were saying that Schenn was going to be the next Adam Foote. A lot of it is the media's fault, but some people on here have incredibly unrealistic expectations of prospects. Nylander has the tools to be great, but he could just as easily become the next Sam Gagner.

And here we are 6 years later

Player A: 14 GP 1G 5A 6PTS -4 (S% 1.7)
Player B: 14 GP 4G 2A 6PTS -8 (S% 11.8)

The grass isn't always greener, and Toronto fans aren't always wrong.

(S% was used for sustainability, Player B's production is sustainable since his career S% is 11.8, but player A has a career S% of 11.4 so 1.7 is unsustainable and his production can be expected to go up)

 

[-DeMo-]

And here we are 6 years later

Player A: 14 GP 1G 5A 6PTS -4 (S% 1.7)
Player B: 14 GP 4G 2A 6PTS -8 (S% 11.8)

The grass isn't always greener, and Toronto fans aren't always wrong.

(S% was used for sustainability, Player B's production is sustainable since his career S% is 11.8, but player A has a career S% of 11.4 so 1.7 is unsustainable and his production can be expected to go up)

r u arguing he's better then Duchene? a guy whose producing with the Elite players in terms of 5on5 scoring over the last couple of years. 2.39 P/60 is 11th best in the NHL compared to Kadri's 1.68 p/60 which is 140th among forwards who played 800 minutes over the last 2 years. just because Duchene has gotten off to a slow start after 14 games doesn't mean he's going to keep that pace up. in 4 of the last 5 season's Duchene's produced higher then 2.00 Points per 60 minutes played he's started out the year at .94. he's going to get better and is a better player then Kadri without a doubt.

 

[The Podium]

r u arguing he's better then Duchene? a guy whose producing with the Elite players in terms of 5on5 scoring over the last couple of years. 2.39 P/60 is 11th best in the NHL compared to Kadri's 1.68 p/60 which is 140th among forwards who played 800 minutes over the last 2 years. just because Duchene has gotten off to a slow start after 14 games doesn't mean he's going to keep that pace up. in 4 of the last 5 season's Duchene's produced higher then 2.00 Points per 60 minutes played he's started out the year at .94. he's going to get better and is a better player then Kadri without a doubt.

No I'm arguing that Duchene isn't an elite player and comparisons between he and Kadri are a lot closer than between he and Tavares.

 

[champs*]

No I'm arguing that Duchene isn't an elite player and comparisons between he and Kadri are a lot closer than between he and Tavares.

wasn't he on the last olympic team that won gold?

 

[The Podium]

wasn't he on the last olympic team that won gold?

In that case, all hail Chris Kunitz

He had a great year, don't get me wrong, but his 2 elite season's were the lockout shortened season (which according to almost everyone should be counted as an anomaly, and Kadri also out scored him that year), and the following season where Colorado had an anomalous season where every single one of their players were hot. Duchene is better than Kadri, but he is by no means an elite player IMHO. From that draft I'd rank him 4th behind JT, Hedman and OEL (true elite players) and then followed by ROR and Nick Leddy, then Kadri/Kane at 7/8. The rest of that draft class was pathetic.

 

[-DeMo-]

No I'm arguing that Duchene isn't an elite player and comparisons between he and Kadri are a lot closer than between he and Tavares.

11th in points per 60 minutes played 5on5 is pretty Elite to me. better then Tavares, Stamkos, Patrick Kane.

 

[champs*]

In that case, all hail Chris Kunitz

He had a great year, don't get me wrong, but his 2 elite season's were the lockout shortened season (which according to almost everyone should be counted as an anomaly, and Kadri also out scored him that year), and the following season where Colorado had an anomalous season where every single one of their players were hot. Duchene is better than Kadri, but he is by no means an elite player IMHO. From that draft I'd rank him 4th behind JT, Hedman and OEL (true elite players) and then followed by ROR and Nick Leddy, then Kadri/Kane at 7/8. The rest of that draft class was pathetic.

chemistry with crosby is what got kunitz on that team...Duchene was picked cause he was/is an elite player.