Nylander and Kadri: 8th./7th overall picks

[Deez Nuts]

You don't have a clue. Kadri was our best prospect in forever, so sure there's gonna be some hype. How's Kadri's conflicting with Babcock again (the one coach we actually like and has a secure future)? How many coaches and GM's has Nylander played for in the NHL? Lockout year, 50 points another year, yup very "poor" production (drawing penalties). Last year he took huge strides on the defensive side. This year he's playing really well, just can't buy a goal. He's always had great hands but now he's a bit quicker and putting it together, along with his actually good work ethic on the defensive end. Interesting you take a chirp from Crosby so seriously. Plenty of people would want a guy like Kadri now and in the future. You clearly have a certain perception that blinds you from what his actual play is showing (but pointssssss right?). Can't wait for the inevitable negative talk about Nylander, hopefully he can model Lidstrom with the whole "perfect human" swedish thing they got going. Last of all Kadri isn't done developing, imagine you gave up on the majority of players in the league this early... I'm just a fanboy though. Kadri > Gretzky.

Sorry pal, take off the blue beer goggles. Kadri suspended in junior by Hunter in London, problems with Eakins in the AHL, then butting heads with Wilson and a reportedly shaky relationship with Carlyle. He was just suspended by Shanny last year for both on and off ice issues. There is a pattern here yet so many here claim he has cleaned up his act this year merely 14 games into the season lol. Everybody else treated him so "poorly" right?
Whereas Nylander has had glowing reports by all accounts thus far.
You mention the short season and his 50 point year, how about his lousy 39 points last year. He is on pace to score 6 goals this year with increased minutes and pp time! But of couse yet again it's not Kadri's fault, it's his terrible wingers or just bad luck. How come nobody mentions the terrible wingers he played with on the third line during the shortened season?
This supposed improvement defensively is a myth, he may have slightly improved but he is nowhere near above average defensively. He does have the worst plus/minus on the team at this point.
People don't like Kadri due his history, attitude and regression. He is on pace to score 6 goals this year and his supporters have found new excuses for this guy.
If Nylander has ongoing battles with coaches, is suspended by mangement and has poor production, I will not like him either.

 

[Ovate]

Sorry pal, take off the blue beer goggles. Kadri suspended in junior by Hunter in London, problems with Eakins in the AHL, then butting heads with Wilson and a reportedly shaky relationship with Carlyle. He was just suspended by Shanny last year for both on and off ice issues. There is a pattern here yet so many here claim he has cleaned up his act this year merely 14 games into the season lol. Everybody else treated him so "poorly" right?
Whereas Nylander has had glowing reports by all accounts thus far.
You mention the short season and his 50 point year, how about his lousy 39 points last year. He is on pace to score 6 goals this year with increased minutes and pp time! But of couse yet again it's not Kadri's fault, it's his terrible wingers or just bad luck. How come nobody mentions the terrible wingers he played with on the third line during the shortened season?
This supposed improvement defensively is a myth, he may have slightly improved but he is nowhere near above average defensively. He does have the worst plus/minus on the team at this point.
People don't like Kadri due his history, attitude and regression. He is on pace to score 6 goals this year and his supporters have found new excuses for this guy.
If Nylander has ongoing battles with coaches, is suspended by mangement and has poor production, I will not like him either.

Points are all that matter! And they only depend on a player's skill level, regardless of context. That's why your statement that Kadri is on pace for 6 goals is a totally valid criticism.

 

[teeder333*]

Kadri hangs with the older sister of one of my son's best friends. Obviously I could tell you lots but I won't. He is an okay guy don't worry, but he has been through some stuff. I think he is past it all or most of it. Lets face it, he doesn't have a long term contract, but he is making some huge bucks for a guy his age. Lot of temptation out there.

I think Kadri has always had a mixed bag of tricks. Phenomenal stick skills that he seems to have lost a bit of. I think that is pure confidence.

His weakness has been conditioning and building the weak areas of his body, of which there more than most NHLers have.

If he really gets into the gym and matures, he might end up becoming a top twenty scorer in the NHL at some point. He has that kind of talent I think, he has taken his sweet time to develop and clean up.

Nylander? Probably could come up to the Leafs and score .7 ppg right away. Possibly more. It could be just his dispostion but he seems sort of bored in the AHL. I think his sweet skills will translate better to a league with more skill. Don't get me wrong, the AHL is some pretty serious hockey, but the NHL is filled with guys now with sick skills, I think Nylander is anxious to play with and against them.

 

[Deez Nuts]

Points are all that matter! And they only depend on a player's skill level, regardless of context. That's why your statement that Kadri is on pace for 6 goals is a totally valid criticism.

Where do I claim points are the only thing that matters?
Why do you ignore all the clashes with managment and coaches thus far at every level of hockey?
Is he not on pace to score 6 goals (I rounded up)? A yes/no answer will suffice.
Is his defensive skill anything better than average? Going from poor defensively to average is nothing to brag about.
Does he show any grit on a consistent basis? The only time he shows any phsyical play is if he get's nailed and then he goes after whoever hit him.
Does he not have a track record of head shots? Has he not been suspended multiple times fir this?Would you say he is even a respected player among his peers?
This guy brings very little to the table except for positive looking advanced stats.

 

[cookie]

Where do I claim points are the only thing that matters?
Why do you ignore all the clashes with managment and coaches thus far at every level of hockey?
Is he not on pace to score 6 goals (I rounded up)? A yes/no answer will suffice.
Is his defensive skill anything better than average? Going from poor defensively to average is nothing to brag about.
Does he show any grit on a consistent basis? The only time he shows any phsyical play is if he get's nailed and then he goes after whoever hit him.
Does he not have a track record of head shots? Has he not been suspended multiple times fir this?Would you say he is even a respected player among his peers?
This guy brings very little to the table except for positive looking advanced stats.

So according to you, Voracek and Perry should just call it quits given the kind of minutes they get and the goal totals they've put up? Has Perry never been suspended? I wonder if his antics are respected throughout the league.

 

[Ovate]

Where do I claim points are the only thing that matters?

When that's the only quantitative metric you evaluate him on.

Why do you ignore all the clashes with managment and coaches thus far at every level of hockey?

Do you ignore that Shanahan came out and said they think he can improve? Plenty of young players mature as they get older.

Is he not on pace to score 6 goals (I rounded up)? A yes/no answer will suffice.

Do you think a 14 game pace is enough to judge a player on? Do you think he'll take 410 shots? Do you think he'll score 6 goals all season? Do you think he'll set new records for lowest forward shooting percentages? Yes/no answers will suffice.

Is his defensive skill anything better than average? Going from poor defensively to average is nothing to brag about.

Yes, it is better than average. He consistently gets the puck out of our zone and prevent goals against.

Does he show any grit on a consistent basis? The only time he shows any phsyical play is if he get's nailed and then he goes after whoever hit him.

He is among the top in the NHL for hits among skilled players

Does he not have a track record of head shots? Has he not been suspended multiple times fir this?Would you say he is even a respected player among his peers?

He has made some illegal checks to the head. The one against Fraser last season was clearly an accident, even Oilers fans agreed, but he has to be more careful. On the other hand, who cares if he's respected among his peers? The NHL isn't a popularity contest, and if other people hate him he's more likely to get them off their game and taking penalties.

This guy brings very little to the table except for positive looking advanced stats.

This guy brings very little to the table except for making important contributions to winning games? Not my fault if you don't understand advanced stats.

 

[highslot]

Seems we're doing the exact same thing to Nylander as we did to Kadri, overrate the hell out of him.

Kadri is a 2nd line center, a nice result from a 7th pick. When people finally realized he wasn't going to be a 1C the hate began to mount.

Nylander could just as easily be a 2W but many posters are certain he's a surefire top liner and should have gone 1-2 overall. Heck check the Marner thread where hundreds of posters were saying he was the 2nd best player in the draft. No pressure!

I feel like we're expecting way too much out of every prospect and when they don't overachieve they become vilified for some reason.

thoughts and feelings?

you do realize that first line players have been selected as pick #7+? perry, gaudreau, benn, tarasenko, kopitar, etc.

unlike kadri, nylander was rated FIRST overall a year before the draft.

he has better vision for passing, better acceleration and a better release. i don't see how they are comparable except for around draft possition. he won't be a crosby. he will be more like a datsyuk, someone who will make an all star team but never be among the top player.

 

[achtungbaby]

Kadri is a great 2nd line C. He was really nifty in junior, but the numbers he put up there actually aren't remotely consistent with that of a 1st line C in the NHL. He's actually turned out to be better in the NHL than his OHL numbers would have suggested.

Nylander is a ****ing ninja. What he's done in professional leagues as a 17 and 18 year-old are unprecedented. He's one of the best prospects of this generation. There's always a chance he doesn't fulfill his potential, but he is on pace for being a first liner. And probably a high end first liner. Hopefully a C.

That kind of statement is probably what the OP is talking about in regards to hype.

 

[glucker]

you do realize that first line players have been selected as pick #7+? perry, gaudreau, benn, tarasenko, kopitar, etc.

unlike kadri, nylander was rated FIRST overall a year before the draft.

he has better vision for passing, better acceleration and a better release. i don't see how they are comparable except for around draft possition. he won't be a crosby. he will be more like a datsyuk, someone who will make an all star team but never be among the top player.

holy


Datsyuk has been a ppg player for the last decade, and is one of the most elite defensive forwards of all time. Only Bob Gainey has had more Selke wins with 4... and the guys that are tied with Datsyuk at 3, as well as Gainey, have nowhere near the offensive ability.

If Nylander becomes Datsyuk, he's a steal at 8th.

Hell, he'd likely be worthy of 1st overall in his draft, and would have been in competition with McDavid/Eichel.

Datsyuk is a generational player, right up there with Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin.

 

[gabeliscious]

kadri is a decent 2nd line center. i think nylander is more mature at his age then kadri which makes him look better but kadri definitely has the skill to be a player. i think as the team improves kadri will look a lot more impressive.

i think nylander will be the better player though. i can see sometbing like

jvr nylander brown
tkachuck kadri marner
komorov bozak lupul
winnik gauthier xxxxx

 

[Holymakinaw]

So everyone here is overrated and nothing special, and the players we've picked this year or last are EXACTLY the same as every player we've picked prior to that. Got it.

What a great thread.

 

[Mats13]

So the premise of this thread is that Leafs fans aren't allowed to get excited?

What a garbage thread.

 

[glucker]

To be fair, tempering expectations is never bad advice.

That's why I'm avoiding all things Star Wars related until I get to see the movie.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Kadri is my favourite player currently on the Leafs... so I dont like saying this, but here is a fact:

William Nylander is a superior prospect to Nazem Kadri, and has been a better player at the same age, at every point in time so far.

If Nylander plays his draft year in North America, no way he lasts until 8. There is a reason we see guys like Val Nichukskin, Mikko Rantanen, OEL etc getting picked in the 6-10 range and then become studs. Almost every year there is a skilled Euro player who gets drafted later than they should because they suffer from lack of exposure overseas.

Put it this way. Kadri at age 20 put up similar stats in the AHL as Nylander at age 18. And Nylander was coming from big ice with no adjustment period.

There is not a lick of data pn a level playing field to make the claim that Nylander is a superior talent. I'm thinking you can't back that at all withamy proven variable. Thats just your opinion.

Kadri has been pne pf the best players on the ice every game this season. Nylander did not struggle pne bit playing on the smaller ice either. You think he is the only European to ever play good on the smaller ice! Lots do it easily. If you think Nylanders defensive adjustment was ever good on any size sheet you are mistaken.

Nylander is like all leaf prospects learning to be a complete player before they get called up to the leafs. I'm not one who is hyping and pressuring prospects by posting extravagant expectations.

I want prospects over developed if thats what we need to call it to get a ready player. I still believe players should never stop developing. When i see one or two trick pony players that haulted changing their game for the betterment of the team, i really get concerned about them types.

Nylander will play for the leafs when he is ready. He is not ready yet. Over developing these coming prospects will be better all round i believe.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Seems we're doing the exact same thing to Nylander as we did to Kadri, overrate the hell out of him.

Ka6dri is a 2nd line center, a nice result from a 7th pick. When people finally realized he wasn't going to be a 1C the hate began to mount.

Nylander could just as easily be a 2W but many posters are certain he's a surefire top liner and should have gone 1-2 overall. Heck check the Marner thread where hundreds of posters were saying he was the 2nd best player in the draft. No pressure!

I feel like we're expecting way too much out of every prospect and when they don't overachieve they become vilified for some reason.

thoughts and feelings?

There were multiple scouting reports that claimed that Marner's game breaking dynamics in his game were second only to Connor McDavid. People on here didn't make that up. Scouts reported that.

I'm not sure whats up your arse actually. These boards are in the highest state of solidarity towards patience and development that has ever been seen here.

I think posters have every right to be excited about a rather large number of prospects in the system. There is a large group of exciting prospects that are showing up as very good in their team and leagues.

Whats the big deal.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

So the premise of this thread is that Leafs fans aren't allowed to get excited?

What a garbage thread.

Haaa nice avatar. He does the leg on a keg when he scores too lol.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Kadri was drafted 7th overall, and is 8th overall in points scored. And he's definitely better than Brayden Schenn (#5), and same points per game as Evander Kane (#4).

Really. You should uote that in every post. Sticky that right to your username bud.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sorry pal, take off the blue beer goggles. Kadri suspended in junior by Hunter in London, problems with Eakins in the AHL, then butting heads with Wilson and a reportedly shaky relationship with Carlyle. He was just suspended by Shanny last year for both on and off ice issues. There is a pattern here yet so many here claim he has cleaned up his act this year merely 14 games into the season lol. Everybody else treated him so "poorly" right?
Whereas Nylander has had glowing reports by all accounts thus far.
You mention the short season and his 50 point year, how about his lousy 39 points last year. He is on pace to score 6 goals this year with increased minutes and pp time! But of couse yet again it's not Kadri's fault, it's his terrible wingers or just bad luck. How come nobody mentions the terrible wingers he played with on the third line during the shortened season?
This supposed improvement defensively is a myth, he may have slightly improved but he is nowhere near above average defensively. He does have the worst plus/minus on the team at this point.
People don't like Kadri due his history, attitude and regression. He is on pace to score 6 goals this year and his supporters have found new excuses for this guy.
If Nylander has ongoing battles with coaches, is suspended by mangement and has poor production, I will not like him either.

Wow, don't even know where to begin with this one. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Kadri hangs with the older sister of one of my son's best friends. Obviously I could tell you lots but I won't. He is an okay guy don't worry, but he has been through some stuff. I think he is past it all or most of it. Lets face it, he doesn't have a long term contract, but he is making some huge bucks for a guy his age. Lot of temptation out there.

I think Kadri has always had a mixed bag of tricks. Phenomenal stick skills that he seems to have lost a bit of. I think that is pure confidence.

His weakness has been conditioning and building the weak areas of his body, of which there more than most NHLers have.

If he really gets into the gym and matures, he might end up becoming a top twenty scorer in the NHL at some point. He has that kind of talent I think, he has taken his sweet time to develop and clean up.

Nylander? Probably could come up to the Leafs and score .7 ppg right away. Possibly more. It could be just his dispostion but he seems sort of bored in the AHL. I think his sweet skills will translate better to a league with more skill. Don't get me wrong, the AHL is some pretty serious hockey, but the NHL is filled with guys now with sick skills, I think Nylander is anxious to play with and against them.

Hmm, that's interesting. Sounds plausible too, thanks for sharing.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Hmm, that's interesting. Sounds plausible too, thanks for sharing.

teeder333 apparently knows everyone on every Toronto sports team either personally or through some scouts

 

[Gary Nylund]

holy


Datsyuk has been a ppg player for the last decade, and is one of the most elite defensive forwards of all time. Only Bob Gainey has had more Selke wins with 4... and the guys that are tied with Datsyuk at 3, as well as Gainey, have nowhere near the offensive ability.

If Nylander becomes Datsyuk, he's a steal at 8th.

Hell, he'd likely be worthy of 1st overall in his draft, and would have been in competition with McDavid/Eichel.

Datsyuk is a generational player, right up there with Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin.

That's overdoing it. Having said that, Datsyuk is an incredible player, if Nylander becomes the equivalent Datsyuk then the pick is a towering homerun. I just don't have words to describe how freaking thrilled I'd be if Nylander turns out to be a player like Datsyuk. That just might make him the best Maple Leaf forward since we last won the cup.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Sorry pal, take off the blue beer goggles. Kadri suspended in junior by Hunter in London, problems with Eakins in the AHL, then butting heads with Wilson and a reportedly shaky relationship with Carlyle. He was just suspended by Shanny last year for both on and off ice issues. There is a pattern here yet so many here claim he has cleaned up his act this year merely 14 games into the season lol. Everybody else treated him so "poorly" right?
Whereas Nylander has had glowing reports by all accounts thus far.
You mention the short season and his 50 point year, how about his lousy 39 points last year. He is on pace to score 6 goals this year with increased minutes and pp time! But of couse yet again it's not Kadri's fault, it's his terrible wingers or just bad luck. How come nobody mentions the terrible wingers he played with on the third line during the shortened season?
This supposed improvement defensively is a myth, he may have slightly improved but he is nowhere near above average defensively. He does have the worst plus/minus on the team at this point.
People don't like Kadri due his history, attitude and regression. He is on pace to score 6 goals this year and his supporters have found new excuses for this guy.
If Nylander has ongoing battles with coaches, is suspended by mangement and has poor production, I will not like him either.

So what have you been up to this nhl season? I know you haven't been watching the games. Tilted or what!

 

[Leafling]

Honestly it's a bit sad to see people compare and demean our prospects and players like that. Kadri, and Rielly of course, for me is one of the few good stories from our draft cycles in the past 5-7 years.

Naz was drafted realistically with an aim to become a top six forward for us, he has turned out to be just that, 1c or 2c at worst (also think he could have been an amazing winger at one point).

Nylander and marner are similar if not higher potential picks and its refreshing to see us giving them a proper development plan, we still have to see what they do in nhl though! It's a big change for a lot of players so you will have to wait and see what happens.

From the looks of it, if we are looking to compete in 3 years time. We should not feel any need to trade or lose any prospects to acquire an elite centre, a lineup with Naz, Nylander, and Marner sounds mouth watering.

 

[teeder333*]

I was asked by admins not to say anything beyond hockey and its a good idea. I enjoy little vignettes by posters who know people personally, but a lot of people get snarly about it. I don't need that.

I know a lot of people in the game, used to know a lot more when I raised the money for the restaurant owned by an ex leaf that is sort of the leaf and jays hangout spot after games.

 

[Dustin]

I think this is somewhat true. Some people thought Kadri would be the best player ever and perpetuated that hype. And then of course when he misses that mark suddenly he is worth nothing so he should be traded. Kadri falls in the middle of that. He was a decent pick in a weakish draft and has shown signs of a good number 2C. The book is still out on Nylander of course and while he looks great, anything can happen. For the Leafs that anything is usually bad.