Blue Jays Discussion: Now accepting rants about Sanchez going to the bullpen

[BertCorbeau]

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[Eyedea]

The Nats management were prophetic and knew the Giants were going to win again in 2012. Jays might as well just shutdown Sanchez because, you know, even year.

 

[Discoverer]

I don't think it's the casuals, I think it's more likely to be the people who saw the Nats blow their chance at the World Series by sitting Strasburg, only to see him injured anyway.

And the decision to shut down Strat was a lot more justifiable given that he was sitting on 160 IP after only 24 IP the year before. Despite this, the move to sit him was much lampooned and in retrospect looks like a horrible blunder:

But he blew it on Strasburg. This isn’t a second guess, it was a first guess more than a year ago when Rizzo first announced his intentions. Almost everyone in baseball outside of Washington thought Rizzo was making a mistake then — especially when the Nats emerged as a clear championship contender — and they believe it even more firmly now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...n a way that gets the most value out of them.

 

[ShaneFalco]

So who pitches tonight if Dickey doesn't lats long? Goins?

 

[zeke]

In fairness, I think much of my opinion is rooted in me because I was one of the few who actually watched the Jays back when they had 3 pitchers blow out their arms in the span of like 8 days. I imagine if in the next couple weeks we saw 3 starters undergo TJ surgery, many people would be cautious next time around.

In fairness, I guess much of my opinion is rooted in the fact that I'm one of the few for whom hearing 2012 referred to "back then" instead of "a couple years ago" sounds weird.

As for 2012, the truth is we babied the hell out of those pitchers, and it did nothing to save them from injury.

Morrow

2007: 63.1ip
2008: 64.2
2009: 69.2
(trade)
2010: 146.1 - we shut him down early due to an innings limit
2011: 170.0
2012: 123.1 - season ending injury

Hutchison

2010: 78.2
2011: 149.1ip (innings limit)
2012: 75.1ip - season ending injury

Drabek

2007: 54.0ip - first TJ surgery
2008: 30.2ip - TJ comeback
2009: 158.0
(trade)
2010: 179.0
2011: 153.2
2012: 71.1 - season ending injury


Using innings limits didn't save those arms. Why will it save Sanchez'?

 

[theaub]

So who pitches tonight if Dickey doesn't lats long? Goins?

Sanchez

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

"It's a good conversational piece, it's a good debatable subject. But most of the people that have weighed in on this know probably 10 percent of the information that we know, and that we've made our opinion based upon."

Mike Rizzo cares not what people think of his decision that year

 

[Eyedea]

In fairness, I guess much of my opinion is rooted in the fact that I'm one of the few for whom hearing 2012 referred to "back then" instead of "a couple years ago" sounds weird.

As for 2012, the truth is we babied the hell out of those pitchers, and it did nothing to save them from injury.

Morrow

2007: 63.1ip
2008: 64.2
2009: 69.2
(trade)
2010: 146.1 - we shut him down early due to an innings limit
2011: 170.0
2012: 123.1 - season ending injury

Morrow came back in 2012. Also it was an oblique injury, not an arm injury.

And I think at this point we can kind of throw Morrow into the lump of "just can't stay healthy" type of guys like Brett Anderson and Dustin McGowan (and Drabek, though he also just sucked).

 

[Kurtz]

What I felt they should have done was manage his innings better by skipping starts, pushing starts back where possible, and pulling him a bit earlier each game. That's what I feel the Jays should have done with Sanchez to try to get him through the end of the season in the rotation. To me, the mistake isn't limiting his innings, it's not limiting them in a way that gets the most value out of them.

I've been saying this since the first month of the season. We had Hutch just hanging out when he could have been taking the odd Sanchez starts. Hell, I even floated the possibility of a 6-man rotation, since none of Estrada, Happ or Stroman have ever pitched a 200 inning season, and Dickey was 41.

I STILL think we should just skip a couple of Sanchez' starts, perhaps even put him on a 15 day DL so he's available to start in October. It would give us a better shot in the playoffs and probably preserve his arm to the same or greater extent than having him throw max effort fastballs out of the pen every other day.

 

[Discoverer]

In fairness, I guess much of my opinion is rooted in the fact that I'm one of the few for whom hearing 2012 referred to "back then" instead of "a couple years ago" sounds weird.

Yeah, it took me a second to realize it was referring to 2012.

As for 2012, the truth is we babied the hell out of those pitchers, and it did nothing to save them from injury.

Morrow

2007: 63.1ip
2008: 64.2
2009: 69.2
(trade)
2010: 146.1 - we shut him down early due to an innings limit
2011: 170.0
2012: 123.1 - season ending injury

Hutchison

2010: 78.2
2011: 149.1ip (innings limit)
2012: 75.1ip - season ending injury

Drabek

2007: 54.0ip - first TJ surgery
2008: 30.2ip - TJ comeback
2009: 158.0
(trade)
2010: 179.0
2011: 153.2
2012: 71.1 - season ending injury


Using innings limits didn't save those arms. Why will it save Sanchez'?

How were those pitchers babied? Each of those examples has the pitcher's innings being roughly doubled in one season and having a major injury about two years later. If anything, this strikes me as an argument in the opposite direction it's intended.

 

[Hoverhand]

So who pitches tonight if Dickey doesn't lats long? Goins?

Maybe Jason Frasor wants to come back?

 

[Hoverhand]

I honestly thought they were gonna call up Bolsinger and send down Schultz today because Bolsinger could've atleast ate up a couple innings.

 

[Kurtz]

Mike Rizzo cares not what people think of his decision that year

If anything, Rizzo's move was more justified given that Strasburg was coming off TJ surgery the previous year. One TJ surgery is no big deal; it's almost a fashion statement. Two TJ surgeries that early and in such close proximity however, would have been quite tragic.

 

[Woodman19]

Boslinger and finally Barnes called up.

 

[Hoverhand]

Boslinger and finally Barnes called up.

Does this mean Schultz and Goins go down?

 

[Eyedea]

If anything, Rizzo's move was more justified given that Strasburg was coming off TJ surgery the previous year. One TJ surgery is no big deal; it's almost a fashion statement. Two TJ surgeries that early and in such close proximity however, would have been quite tragic.

TJS is still a pretty big deal despite its prevalence.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

If anything, Rizzo's move was more justified given that Strasburg was coming off TJ surgery the previous year. One TJ surgery is no big deal; it's almost a fashion statement. Two TJ surgeries that early and in such close proximity however, would have been quite tragic.

I agree (that's weird). The situations are different. That situation, in a vacuum, was handled appropriately and has worked out perfectly for the franchise imo.

 

[Sokil]

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/video/hayhurst-on-sanchez-s-move-to-pen-a-lose-lose-for-the-jays~922864

Dirk Hayhurt, former pitcher

"This is a terrible decision...there is just as much opportunity for that young man to get hurt in the bullpen. There is zero scientific evidence that says putting a guy in the bullpen keeps him safer."

He also says bullpen pitchers are max effort, having to be ready every night. You also could end up throwing 30 pitches getting ready and still be considered "fresh" to go into the next night's game, and that's dangerous.

He says there is, and hopes there is a chance he gets put back in the rotation before the playoffs start.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/video/bowden-terrible-decision-to-move-sanchez-to-bullpen~922639

Jim Bowden, former GM

"This is a terrible decision, how could you possibly do this."

But of course, it's all just armchair GMs who dont understand the game criticizing this move, right?

 

[Sokil]

I've been saying this since the first month of the season. We had Hutch just hanging out when he could have been taking the odd Sanchez starts. Hell, I even floated the possibility of a 6-man rotation, since none of Estrada, Happ or Stroman have ever pitched a 200 inning season, and Dickey was 41.

I STILL think we should just skip a couple of Sanchez' starts, perhaps even put him on a 15 day DL so he's available to start in October. It would give us a better shot in the playoffs and probably preserve his arm to the same or greater extent than having him throw max effort fastballs out of the pen every other day.

Honestly, yeah, I'd rather have him pitching in September/October than pitching in the pen at all.

 

[Bad News Benning]

Boslinger and finally Barnes called up.

Look forward to seeing Danny Barnes and what has made him so successful this year. Doesn't sound like the stuff is overpowering but he's getting people out which is all that matters.

 

[Canada4Gold]

The last 10 pages of the last thread sure were fun eh? I could barely make it through them.

At least this one got off to a better start with Danny Barnes being called up

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[zeke]

Jayson Stark of ESPN writes: "According to the Elias Sports Bureau, no starting pitcher with a sub-3.00 ERA at least 20 starts into a season has ever turned around to make at least 10 appearances out of the bullpen."

Unprecedented.

 

[TF97]

I'm assuming that Martin will be the backup infielder