Northlands to eliminate horse racing

[shoop]

The problem is for a festival to even get that big takes 3-5 years and even then you need a huge appeal like camping which you can't really do at an inner city site.

Edmonton even with major league soccer would sell probably 40-60k tickets a game MAX so even then you have 30-40k seats empty. It just doesn't make sense for the city.

The idea behind it sounds cool and great but logistically and financially it doesnt.

Supporting your case here.

I think you vastly over-estimate the upside for soccer attendance in Edmonton.

FC Edmonton has averaged 2,500 people a game. Last year was up to about 3,500.

The Sounders are the only team to average more than 25,000 people a game.

I really don't think you are going to get 15 times (30,000 - 35,000) more people going to games because the quality of the game improves from the second tier to the first tier of soccer in North America.

If anything selling soccer here is like selling hockey in the southern states. Always going to be a niche market.

All of that to agree with you that a 70,000+ capacity stadium for soccer in Edmonton makes absolutely zero sense.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Supporting your case here.

I think you vastly over-estimate the upside for soccer attendance in Edmonton.

FC Edmonton has averaged 2,500 people a game. Last year was up to about 3,500.

The Sounders are the only team to average more than 25,000 people a game.

I really don't think you are going to get 15 times (30,000 - 35,000) more people going to games because the quality of the game improves from the second tier to the first tier of soccer in North America.

If anything selling soccer here is like selling hockey in the southern states. Always going to be a niche market.

All of that to agree with you that a 70,000+ capacity stadium for soccer in Edmonton makes absolutely zero sense.

I was saying even if we got the top league in the world to play here even then we wouldn't hit that many

 

[Speed220DChalavan]

These statements were signed off by Ernst & Young. A worldwide firm with revenue of $28 Billion in 2015. I would guess any of the E&Y partners in Edmonton alone would make far, far more money than you do.

But you somehow have more knowledge than this firm?

While Ernst & Young is a global powerhouse and pushes the river for accounting firms, the statements were in fact signed off by Grant Thornton.

All your other points remain valid.

 

[rosemount289]

Got to remember that the................???

While Ernst & Young is a global powerhouse and pushes the river for accounting firms, the statements were in fact signed off by Grant Thornton.

All your other points remain valid.

Got to remember that the financial statements are only dollar summaries of the activities of Northlands.

But it can be misleading........for example...Depreciation of assets is = $4,896,212
...............amortization of capital = 138,344
......excess of revenue over expense = 2,341,288

actual cash made = $7,375,844

So, Northlands made in actual cash $7,375,844.......not bad for a supposed NON-PROFIT organization.

The amortization and depreciation of capital assets are just paper write-offs for tax purposes on buildings' and other tangible assets (cars, tractors, betting machines, kitchen equipment, etc.).

 

[shoop]

While Ernst & Young is a global powerhouse and pushes the river for accounting firms, the statements were in fact signed off by Grant Thornton.

All your other points remain valid.

My bad. If you click on the financials link the tab that opens up it reads 'EY Audited F/S...' That's why I thought E&Y signed off on their statements.

Turns out the Horse Racing Alberta 'grant' is the track's share of the slot win.

What are the odds Northlands will argue to keep the slots despite not needing the revenue to off-set horse racing costs in the future?

The amortization and depreciation of capital assets are just paper write-offs for tax purposes on buildings' and other tangible assets (cars, tractors, betting machines, kitchen equipment, etc.).

Why would a not-for-profit that doesn't pay taxes need write offs?

 

[Gord]

Back on topic, I like the idea. It offers something new to the city and horse racing isnt my thing. If it's an area that could seat as some saying 70-100,000 people that would be a great venue for outdoor festivals - they've been kicked out of the country, the football field is needed for football, and to have the ability to hold festivals on that level (or smaller) appeals to me as a consumer of entertainment. All for it

I hate the idea.
there isn't the value for the money being spent. the only think I could think that it would be a good idea for is the taste of Edmonton.

I like to use the folk festival as a reason why it would be a bad idea.
I can't imagine a festival with 7 stages on a huge flat patch. you'd lose every last bit of atmosphere the festival has. part of the allure of the festival is sitting of the hill. having the views of the city and of the site itself.
sitting in the north end of town on a flat surface looking at the back of someone's head doesn't sound like much fun.

 

[joestevens29]

Back on topic, I like the idea. It offers something new to the city and horse racing isnt my thing. If it's an area that could seat as some saying 70-100,000 people that would be a great venue for outdoor festivals - they've been kicked out of the country, the football field is needed for football, and to have the ability to hold festivals on that level (or smaller) appeals to me as a consumer of entertainment. All for it

It is worth mentioning that the Eskimos and Porkapoloza or whatever it is called are teaming up to be what Len Rhodes called "the biggest tailgate party in Canada ever". So I don't know that I'd just write off festivals at Commonwealth just yet. If anything if I'm City Council I'm asking why we aren't using Commonwealth more in the first place.

 

[Speed220DChalavan]

Got to remember that the financial statements are only dollar summaries of the activities of Northlands.

But it can be misleading........for example...Depreciation of assets is = $4,896,212
...............amortization of capital = 138,344
......excess of revenue over expense = 2,341,288

actual cash made = $7,375,844

So, Northlands made in actual cash $7,375,844.......not bad for a supposed NON-PROFIT organization.

The amortization and depreciation of capital assets are just paper write-offs for tax purposes on buildings' and other tangible assets (cars, tractors, betting machines, kitchen equipment, etc.).

Amortization is a appropriate.

On flip side, all purchased capital assets aren't expensed on the income statement in the first year. They are amortized over the length of useful life.

 

[shoop]

Amortization is a appropriate.

On flip side, all purchased capital assets aren't expensed on the income statement in the first year. They are amortized over the length of useful life.

Thanks. Finally someone with a basic understanding of accounting. The purpose of setting up a fixed asset is to avoid wild swings on the income statement.

I hate the idea.
there isn't the value for the money being spent. the only think I could think that it would be a good idea for is the taste of Edmonton.

I like to use the folk festival as a reason why it would be a bad idea.
I can't imagine a festival with 7 stages on a huge flat patch. you'd lose every last bit of atmosphere the festival has. part of the allure of the festival is sitting of the hill. having the views of the city and of the site itself.
sitting in the north end of town on a flat surface looking at the back of someone's head doesn't sound like much fun.

Taste of Edmonton wouldn't work at Northlands either. I work downtown and usually walk over once or twice every year for lunch. Weekday lunches at ToE is always full of fellow cubicle mouth breathers escaping out into the sun. I wouldn't hop on the LRT to head down to Northlands for it. I don't think many people would.

Also need to remember that ToE runs concurrently with K-Days.

Folk Fest is great for the attendees. Bareable for the residents of the area close enough to receive free passes. For those who are still impacted by the activity, but not close enough to get free passes it really sucks.

 

[rosemount289]

The reason I made............???

The reason I made the Cash flow statement was to point out that Northlands is not poor as they state. They are always crying about been cash strapped and poor and how they subsidize horse racing and that they should get more grants from the city.

I would like to see a financial statement just on horse racing alone with all the spin-off business that horse racing generates.

My point being........is horse racing really generating a loss for Northlands? Again, remember they are suppose to be a Non-Profit Organization.

 

[Gord]

Thanks. Finally someone with a basic understanding of accounting. The purpose of setting up a fixed asset is to avoid wild swings on the income statement.



Taste of Edmonton wouldn't work at Northlands either. I work downtown and usually walk over once or twice every year for lunch. Weekday lunches at ToE is always full of fellow cubicle mouth breathers escaping out into the sun. I wouldn't hop on the LRT to head down to Northlands for it. I don't think many people would.

Also need to remember that ToE runs concurrently with K-Days.

Folk Fest is great for the attendees. Bareable for the residents of the area close enough to receive free passes. For those who are still impacted by the activity, but not close enough to get free passes it really sucks.

good point about TOE. you only get so much time for lunch. the move likely wouldn't work for thousands of people.

and for the folk fest, a lot of the houses in the area are owned by people with money.
I think the city would listen to them more than residents with the lower income levels around where the northland plan is located.

The Folk Fest has worked hard with the community when it comes to the noise and the traffic of people in the area, but there is only so much they can do.

I know people who come to the Edmonton Folk festival over any other in Canada because of the location. it would lose a lot of it's cachet if it moved to a flat patch of dirt in an undesirable part of town.

 

[Speed220DChalavan]

I believe due to the lack of space, there are tentative (or finalized?) plans to move taste of Edmonton to 108 street just north of the legislature grounds.

A shame moving it out of the urban, sophisticated, white-collar downtown core area to a more middle class area that appeals to the khaki wearing, Winners shirt-wearing, bourgeois.

 

[Crusty Quinn]

Got to remember that the financial statements are only dollar summaries of the activities of Northlands.

But it can be misleading........for example...Depreciation of assets is = $4,896,212
...............amortization of capital = 138,344
......excess of revenue over expense = 2,341,288

actual cash made = $7,375,844

So, Northlands made in actual cash $7,375,844.......not bad for a supposed NON-PROFIT organization.

The amortization and depreciation of capital assets are just paper write-offs for tax purposes on buildings' and other tangible assets (cars, tractors, betting machines, kitchen equipment, etc.).

Reminds me of:



Also, what exactly would you want Northlands to do with that cash? They're about to lose their Oilers, the Oil Kings, most/all concerts and the ancillary revenue from those events. They're looking at a monumental decrease in cash coming in. Having cash on hand is absolutely the right decision here regardless of which direction they choose to go.

And being a non-profit organization doesn't mean you should have zero profit every year. For larger NPOs having profit and cash is essential so they can make long-term decisions without having to rely on future grants/donations which they may not receive.

 

[rosemount289]

It also means you should not..............???

"And being a non-profit organization doesn't mean you should have zero profit every year. For larger NPOs having profit and cash is essential so they can make long-term decisions without having to rely on future grants/donations which they may not receive."


Really?.........Northlands increase their prices every year for such items as parking, K-Days events, race programs, food items and they cry because they are not making money on horse racing.........they cry in order to get more subsidies from the City..........they want more money for what?.........to build stadiums to make more money while trying to steal events from other City Programs?

Northlands are forgetting their own mandate.......to promote agriculture.........not to make money..........not to lose money either..........but certainly not to gauge the public either.

Like I said before.........they hire outsiders to be CEO and they are evaluated based on how they increase the bottom line.

Perhaps.........it is time to disband Northlands........they want to act like a private company and expand and be territorial......that was not their mandate.

 

[shoop]

Also, what exactly would you want Northlands to do with that cash? They're about to lose their Oilers, the Oil Kings, most/all concerts and the ancillary revenue from those events. They're looking at a monumental decrease in cash coming in. Having cash on hand is absolutely the right decision here regardless of which direction they choose to go.

And being a non-profit organization doesn't mean you should have zero profit every year. For larger NPOs having profit and cash is essential so they can make long-term decisions without having to rely on future grants/donations which they may not receive.

I would want some sort of competent management. Clearly cash wasn't incentive enough for them to implement basic controls. They could have a lot more cash if they had.

In 2014 when they declared a 2.3M 'profit' they discovered a 1.2M fraud among the parking attendants. Their 'profit' would have increased by more than 50% if they had basic internal controls for cash management.

How long did this fraud go on? How much money went into the pockets of the parking attendants and supervisors over the years? Does anyone really think this scam was only for one year?

This is taxpayer money that was stolen. Why should we give these clowns more money to waste money building a white elephant concert venue that hosts maybe a dozen events a year?

 

[rosemount289]

Good points...do you guys...........???

I would want some sort of competent management. Clearly cash wasn't incentive enough for them to implement basic controls. They could have a lot more cash if they had.

In 2014 when they declared a 2.3M 'profit' they discovered a 1.2M fraud among the parking attendants. Their 'profit' would have increased by more than 50% if they had basic internal controls for cash management.

How long did this fraud go on? How much money went into the pockets of the parking attendants and supervisors over the years? Does anyone really think this scam was only for one year?

This is taxpayer money that was stolen. Why should we give these clowns more money to waste money building a white elephant concert venue that hosts maybe a dozen events a year?

Good points...Do you guys remember the parking meter thief.....way back (I don't remember the timeline ) where a employee was stealing coins from all the parking meters in town?

This guy worked for the City collecting the coins from the parking meters in town.

The only problem was he kept some of the coins for himself........but the fellow was not too bright.........he made deposits of those coins.........to his own local bank account.........he kept doing this on regular basis but someone from the bank grew suspicious and blew the whistle on him.

This was before the personal computer age.

 

[rboomercat90]

Good points...Do you guys remember the parking meter thief.....way back (I don't remember the timeline ) where a employee was stealing coins from all the parking meters in town?

This guy worked for the City collecting the coins from the parking meters in town.

The only problem was he kept some of the coins for himself........but the fellow was not too bright.........he made deposits of those coins.........to his own local bank account.........he kept doing this on regular basis but someone from the bank grew suspicious and blew the whistle on him.

This was before the personal computer age.

If I remember it correctly it wasn't parking meters but money being stolen from the ticket dispensers in the LRT. The guy got a couple million over 15 years or so.

 

[rosemount289]

I think it was..........???

If I remember it correctly it wasn't parking meters but money being stolen from the ticket dispensers in the LRT. The guy got a couple million over 15 years or so.

It was long, long time ago.......My scenario happened when there was no LRT and as I stated.....it was before the Personal Computer became a household item.

It happened in the 70's, 80's............Can't remember the exact years?

 

[Lummer Hummer]

My brother-in-law at the time worked @ ETS with that guy when he was finally arrested & charged in the mid-nineties. According to him, everybody knew the guy (& others) had been skimming from the cash boxes on buses for years - he was the only one dumb enough to get caught. Piece of advice for anyone looking to do the same thing: don't buy a giant house with its own car wash when you work as a bus cleaner, & don't make gigantic bank deposits consisting solely of coins. These things tend to draw suspicion, or so you would think. Kind of like in Goodfellas - when you rob Lufthansa of millions, lay low for a while & don't buy a new caddy or a new mink coat for the wife. I tell ya, the older I get, the more I think Darwinism is the way to go. Culling the herd...

 

[joestevens29]

My brother-in-law at the time worked @ ETS with that guy when he was finally arrested & charged in the mid-nineties. According to him, everybody knew the guy (& others) had been skimming from the cash boxes on buses for years - he was the only one dumb enough to get caught. Piece of advice for anyone looking to do the same thing: don't buy a giant house with its own car wash when you work as a bus cleaner, & don't make gigantic bank deposits consisting solely of coins. These things tend to draw suspicion, or so you would think. Kind of like in Goodfellas - when you rob Lufthansa of millions, lay low for a while & don't buy a new caddy or a new mink coat for the wife. I tell ya, the older I get, the more I think Darwinism is the way to go. Culling the herd...

The key is to purchase some vending machines then you have a reason for having a lot of change when they come to your place with a warrant

 

[oilinblood]

Hmmm...what a city that experiences 8 months of winter needs...

OUTDOOR EXPENSIVE VENUES

Nope.

 

[rosemount289]

The situation in my.........???

The key is to purchase some vending machines then you have a reason for having a lot of change when they come to your place with a warrant

The situation in my case was the guy was smart enough to pull it off but it's always "the escape plan" that catches half of those idiots.

All the guy had to do was go to another "large" town......open a new bank account.....use a different name (or under the wife name).......tell them that you run a coin laundry business...........and he would be home free.

 

[Replacement*]

The situation in my case was the guy was smart enough to pull it off but it's always "the escape plan" that catches half of those idiots.

All the guy had to do was go to another "large" town......open a new account.....use a different name (or under the wife name).......tell them that you run a coin laundry business...........and he would be home free.

Not really the case. That wouldn't explain why surveillance video evidence had him carting out heavy bags of change from his job as a fair box technician. That was a significant part of the evidence.

 

[rosemount289]

Replacement my case..........???

Not really the case. That wouldn't explain why surveillance video evidence had him carting out heavy bags of change from his job as a fair box technician. That was a significant part of the evidence.

Replacement.......my case happened in the 70's or 80's.....there were no surveillance equipment at that point in time.

As I said before.........half of these idiots get caught because they tend to "live it up" and brag about their "accomplishments". If you lay low and lead a "normal" life without any major purchases and put the cash away in your basement then quietly move away (after you got enough money to retire).