No World Cup before 2013

[Jussi]

I don't know if you can provide figures or not, but if I had to make an educated guess i'd say you're wrong...most events in the Olympics are pure and simple things nobody gives a hoot about...

take curling for example, I'm sure the best 1% might do it for a living and have sponsorships etc..the rest have day jobs ...same goes for almost every discipline except for the team sports where you can be one of the bunch and still make a living with your sport

umm right yeah, for amateurs , you're just rephrasing what I said, the original purpose of the Olympics was FOR AMATEURS

Since you made the initial false claim that Olympics are meant for amateurs, of which there aren't that many anymore, it should be up to you to prove which major Olympics sports events have amateurs. You might be surprised how few there actually are.

 

[Panteras]

Since you made the initial false claim that Olympics are meant for amateurs, of which there aren't that many anymore, it should be up to you to prove which major Olympics sports events have amateurs. You might be surprised how few there actually are.

The claim that the Olympics are meant for amateurs is umm most definitely NOT false, a simply google search would clear that up for you as it's pretty well know fact that's what it was meant for

what I'm questioning is the # of amateurs taking part in the Olympics, as I said I made an educated guess and I provided my support for my educated guess...I obviously left it open to prove me wrong thus why I asked to provide figures, you seem to have the figures since you said I'd be surprised how few there actually are so why are you keeping it a secret? Let me in the know..

 

[Jussi]

The claim that the Olympics are meant for amateurs is umm most definitely NOT false, a simply google search would clear that up for you as it's pretty well know fact that's what it was meant for

what I'm questioning is the # of amateurs taking part in the Olympics, as I said I made an educated guess and I provided my support for my educated guess...I obviously left it open to prove me wrong thus why I asked to provide figures, you seem to have the figures since you said I'd be surprised how few there actually are so why are you keeping it a secret? Let me in the know..

Yes, Olympics were originally meant for amateurs but that hasn't been the case for for what 40-50 years now. All the skiing disciplines, Nordic and alpine, extreme sports (snow board, free style), speed skating, short track, figure skating could be considered one but that things a mess of it's own, they have their own standard for pro and amateur. Summer games: all team sports, track & field, shooting events maybe, they have to go by mostly on state support, boxing, modern heptathlon (small sport in itself though).

Of course a lot of them make money on advertisement, Kiira Korpi, makes more money on ads than Finland's best figure skater, Laura Lepistö, (who's won more medals than Korpi). Both make money as "amateurs".

 

[tony d]

Never did get the need for a World Cup given the World Championships and the Olympics every 4 years. What would be nice though is if they had a tournament of lesser nations being televised. Would be good to see the lesser hockey nations playing on a big stage.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

Never did get the need for a World Cup given the World Championships and the Olympics every 4 years. What would be nice though is if they had a tournament of lesser nations being televised. Would be good to see the lesser hockey nations playing on a big stage.

I would perfer to see the nhl players out of the olympics and replace that with the world cup.

 

[Jussi]

I would perfer to see the nhl players out of the olympics and replace that with the world cup.

You enjoy inferior hockey and world wide media attention for the tournament that much? Or you just enjoy a tournament that has it's finals played in North America and giving those teams an advantage over the European teams, which have to travel across the Atlantic for the final stages?

 

[wjhl2009fan]

You enjoy inferior hockey and world wide media attention for the tournament that much? Or you just enjoy a tournament that has it's finals played in North America and giving those teams an advantage over the European teams, which have to travel across the Atlantic for the final stages?

No the olympics if you went by the text book meaning is for non pros.As for the world cup it does not matter where the finals you could have a nice 12 team tournemant 2 pools in na and 2 in europe and one year have the play offs in europe then the next in north america.

 

[jekoh]

umm right yeah, for amateurs , you're just rephrasing what I said, the original purpose of the Olympics was FOR AMATEURS

No, the original purpose was not for amateurs. Pros were allowed from day 1 as long as they were not from the working class. They competed in fencing in particular.

If your argument is that the NHL and other top pro leagues should leave the Games to make roome for CHL players, then using the original olympic ideals to support it is complete nonsense as CHL players are pros themselves. Hell even NCAA players are pros by the early definition.

so? Soccer does it and it hasn't been removed,

Soccer does not, all the players are pros.

This is really the one sport that does not go by olympic ideals: not only are the players pros but they are not even the top ones. This is exactly what the olympics are NOT about.

 

[Jussi]

No the olympics if you went by the text book meaning is for non pros.As for the world cup it does not matter where the finals you could have a nice 12 team tournemant 2 pools in na and 2 in europe and one year have the play offs in europe then the next in north america.

For the millionth time: THERE ARE NO AMATERUS IN HOCKEY ANYMORE!

12 team tournament would only mean more blowout games, not to mention NHL would NEVER allow the finals to be played in Europe.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

For the millionth time: THERE ARE NO AMATERUS IN HOCKEY ANYMORE!

12 team tournament would only mean more blowout games, not to mention NHL would NEVER allow the finals to be played in Europe.

Again as i said the text book meaning of the olympics go back and look why the oympics were started.Sure the leaguw would allow the finals to be held in europe if its done right.

 

[jekoh]

No the olympics if you went by the text book meaning is for non pros.

The olympics were always intended for the top athletes.

 

[Jussi]

Again as i said the text book meaning of the olympics go back and look why the oympics were started.Sure the leaguw would allow the finals to be held in europe if its done right.

Why do you repeat this text book meaning of the Olympics, when it's a) false b) no longer valid? Do you do any research into things before you post?

 

[jekoh]

12 team tournament would only mean more blowout games, not to mention NHL would NEVER allow the finals to be played in Europe.

A pro sports league has no business organising an international competition anyway.

Especially a rogue league like the NHL which constantly threatens established competitions like the olympics.

 

[Panteras]

No, the original purpose was not for amateurs. Pros were allowed from day 1 as long as they were not from the working class. They competed in fencing in particular.

"The orginal idea was that the Olympics would be amateur, but by the 1970s all countries were abusing this. Soviet athletes were given officer's rank in the Red Army but never served a day, they just got paid to practice full time, the same for other athletes from behind the Iron Curtain. In the Free World, corporate sponsorship and fake 'spokesperson' position were used to accomplish the same thing.

Recognizing that amateurism had become a farce, the IOC voted to remove the amateur requirement in 1986. They then made each sport's international federation responsible for determining who was eligible to participate in their sports."


Cuban baseball players are considered "amateurs" yet they earn a wage for playing in the Cuban baseball league, Felix Savon one of the best heavyweight fighters in the world with a whole bunch of Olympic gold's was considered "amateur" yet it's obvious he earned a living by what he did...they are all considered amateurs because they didn't get the multimillion dollar contracts in the Western world, so it really depends what you consider amateur or not..

If your argument is that the NHL and other top pro leagues should leave the Games to make roome for CHL players, then using the original olympic ideals to support it is complete nonsense as CHL players are pros themselves. Hell even NCAA players are pros by the early definition.

well my argument is to leave it to these "college kids" if you will, to win Olympic medals for their country as they are not as professionals yet earning top dollars as would be an NHLer...a lot of people enjoy watching junior players at any sport because they are "hungrier" and not as corrupt yet ...so...i'd say that stays truer to the Olympic spirit doesn't it?

Soccer does not, all the players are pros.

This is really the one sport that does not go by olympic ideals: not only are the players pros but they are not even the top ones. This is exactly what the olympics are NOT about.

I was talking about soccer taking youth players, Olympic soccer is only for U-21 or 20 players I can't recall correctly with only 2 players exceeding that age allowed per team...

 

[Jussi]

well my argument is to leave it to these "college kids" if you will, to win Olympic medals for their country as they are not as professionals yet earning top dollars as would be an NHLer...a lot of people enjoy watching junior players at any sport because they are "hungrier" and not as corrupt yet ...so...i'd say that stays truer to the Olympic spirit doesn't it?



I was talking about soccer taking youth players, Olympic soccer is only for U-21 or 20 players I can't recall correctly with only 2 players exceeding that age allowed per team...

Where are you gonna find "college kids" outside North America?

Olympic football tournament is U-23, majority of whom are professional player in either their domestic leagues or foreign leagues.

 

[jekoh]

they are all considered amateurs because they didn't get the multimillion dollar contracts in the Western world, so it really depends what you consider amateur or not..

Yes, that's my point. The original olympics certainly did not regard them as "amateurs".

well my argument is to leave it to these "college kids" if you will, to win Olympic medals for their country as they are not as professionals yet earning top dollars as would be an NHLer...

Who would compete besides the USA and Canada then? There is no such thing as college sports in Europe. It's also debatable whether they actually are amateur by the original definition, I would argue they're not.

a lot of people enjoy watching junior players at any sport because they are "hungrier" and not as corrupt yet ...so...i'd say that stays truer to the Olympic spirit doesn't it?

No, the olympic spirit was never about being "hungry", as I said it was always about having the top athletes in every sport. As for the number of people enjoying junior sports, they're massively outnumbered by people who want to watch the top players and don't give a fück about juniors. I for one can't be bothered to watch juniors, as i don't even find them to be hungrier at all, while generally being tactically inept.

I was talking about soccer taking youth players, Olympic soccer is only for U-21 or 20 players I can't recall correctly with only 2 players exceeding that age allowed per team...

Under-23. But still pros. Tournament is pretty much a joke. No need to replace a great hockey olympic tournament by much inferior teams. I'd rather watch the Euro Hockey Tour instead.

 

[Panteras]

Where are you gonna find "college kids" outside North America?

Olympic football tournament is U-23, majority of whom are professional player in either their domestic leagues or foreign leagues.

gees you and jekoh are taking things too literally, I said : "college kids" if you will... meaning if that's what you want to call them, I was obviously just referring to young adults, junior players etc..whatever you wanna call them, trust me I follow both soccer and hockey I know the "junior" developments are different in both sports

if it makes you feel better, what I'm obviously trying to say is just make Olympic hockey U-23 as they do in soccer, and get a damn hockey WC already as they do in soccer, let the Seguins , Duchene, Hall, Couturier win the Olympics, while Crosby and Luongo win the World Cup of hockey...these World Championships every year are pointless...and junior competitions can go an as usual just as they do in soccer

Yes, that's my point. The original olympics certainly did not regard them as "amateurs".

so what did they regard them as? Professionals?

as far as I'm concerned, every sports pundit I have heard or read regards Cuban baseball players as "amateurs" as well as the boxers in the Olympics (and I don't know if you watch baseball or the World Baseball Classic or if you ever followed boxing), but I remember this quite well from the World Baseball Classic and from the boxers

heck even Oscar De La Hoya was considered an amateur when he did Olympic boxing

Who would compete besides the USA and Canada then? There is no such thing as college sports in Europe. It's also debatable whether they actually are amateur by the original definition, I would argue they're not.

who would compete? HUH? So what's the point of this World Junior Championship taking place in Buffalo as we speak? again read what I told Jussi, both of you misunderstood what I said about "college kids" if you will...

college players are amateurs, you seem to have a very very thin black and white definition for amateurs, I guess only the rare Scottish school teacher with impressive biceps who takes place in the annual Highlands competition is considered an amateur to you?

No, the olympic spirit was never about being "hungry", as I said it was always about having the top athletes in every sport. As for the number of people enjoying junior sports, they're massively outnumbered by people who want to watch the top players and don't give a fück about juniors. I for one can't be bothered to watch juniors, as i don't even find them to be hungrier at all, while generally being tactically inept.

I was obviously joking about what I said about the young guys being hungrier and less corrupt, I thought this would have given it away, but I guess I was wrong..

listen, the Olympics are meaningless to me, honestly just as much as you don't give a rat's ass about juniors I don't give a rat's ass about the Olympics, there's perhaps 1 or 2 events worth watching and that's it...btw I don't care for junior competitions either, thus why I'm suggesting to just move the juniors to fill in in the olympics, just like soccer doesn't care for the olympics it's time for hockey to do the same

Under-23. But still pros. Tournament is pretty much a joke. No need to replace a great hockey olympic tournament by much inferior teams. I'd rather watch the Euro Hockey Tour instead.

you won't miss a damn thing from olympic hockey if there was a well respected hockey World Cup like there is in soccer, I can guarantee you that much

 

[pouskin74*]

i hope, this tournament dont take place untill all teams have equal rights-home crowd,not only NHL referees,NHL rules and so on..

 

[Jussi]

these World Championships every year are pointless

They have to be held every year due to the relegation and promotion of teams from Division 2 and in order to rank teams. E.g. if Slovakia were to be relegated next year in their home tournament, are you going to make them stick in division 2 "forever"? Do you have any idea how much damage that could do that country's hockey program?

 

[Panteras]

They have to be held every year due to the relegation and promotion of teams from Division 2 and in order to rank teams. E.g. if Slovakia were to be relegated next year in their home tournament, are you going to make them stick in division 2 "forever"? Do you have any idea how much damage that could do that country's hockey program?

you're right, these divisions do present a challenge as they work as would the EPL or something with necessary promotions and relegations each year..it does present an interesting dilemma

 

[Fish on The Sand]

people here think that if pros were barred from olympic hockey that there would be something akin to the world jrs, but that would be false because the CHL is a pro league by any standard, so Canada would be drawing players from college or Jr. A, and the Russians wouldn't be able to play any jrs from the KHL.

I would also argue that the Olympics were never designed to be entirely amateur. The feeling in the early 20th century was that sports were a game and there was a stigma against being paid to play a game. This is why until about the 1950s professional football was irrelevant in North America as the best football players from college never turned pro. The olympics were an extension of this. The best athletes in the world were amateurs because the concept of professional sports was still new and frowned upon.

As the century went on and professional sports became more common and accepted, you would see more professionals in the olympics. The olympics was never designed to showcase the best in amateur talent, but the best period. It just so happened that the best athletes used to be amateurs.

 

[Renbarg]

The World Cup should be held two years from the Olympics and it should be held in season with the same type of break that was given for the Olympics.

The World Championships don't mean much to us N. Americans because it takes place during our playoffs after a long and grueling season. The best players simply aren't there.

This should also be done not in cooperation with the IIHF but with the various leagues. So the NHL, KHL and the Swedish Elite league sign some sort of revenue sharing deal (all the other smaller leagues will follow suit) based on some sort of formula. You can then alternate the host between N. America and Europe.

 

[jekoh]

if it makes you feel better, what I'm obviously trying to say is just make Olympic hockey U-23 as they do in soccer,

Fine, but stop citing olympic ideals to help your argument, as they don't help it in any way, shape or form.

heck even Oscar De La Hoya was considered an amateur when he did Olympic boxing

So too were the top soviet athletes. So what?

what's the point of this World Junior Championship taking place in Buffalo as we speak?

I have to say I have no idea.

I find it completely pointless, yet just because I find it pointless I don't want to remove it altogether like you would like to do with the Olympics. I don't think my personal lack of interest for the WJC should take precedence over the passion half a dozen people have for it, or simply over the integrity of that tournament. I guess that's the difference with the "olympics should be for amateurs" crowd.

thus why I'm suggesting to just move the juniors to fill in in the olympics, just like soccer doesn't care for the olympics it's time for hockey to do the same

You still have failed to give any reason why hockey should do that, other than "I would like it", or hockey should do like soccer, or a misinformed view of olympic ideals.

 

[Sanderson]

This should also be done not in cooperation with the IIHF but with the various leagues. So the NHL, KHL and the Swedish Elite league sign some sort of revenue sharing deal (all the other smaller leagues will follow suit) based on some sort of formula. You can then alternate the host between N. America and Europe.

You do realise that all those leagues are part of the IIHF?

That's a bit like saying all the NHL-teams should forget about the league and just deal with each other.

Not to mention that the players represent countries, and those countries are definately members of the IIHF. All these nations - and thus the IIHF - have to agree to such a tournament and revenue sharing. While it's definately possible to hold such a tournament without the IIHF, it can't be done without the IIHF-members. The IIHF isn't some sort of organisation that forces its will on the nations, it exists through its members.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

The World Cup should be held two years from the Olympics and it should be held in season with the same type of break that was given for the Olympics.

The World Championships don't mean much to us N. Americans because it takes place during our playoffs after a long and grueling season. The best players simply aren't there.

This should also be done not in cooperation with the IIHF but with the various leagues. So the NHL, KHL and the Swedish Elite league sign some sort of revenue sharing deal (all the other smaller leagues will follow suit) based on some sort of formula. You can then alternate the host between N. America and Europe.

You fail to understand how things work in Europe and especially in Russia. Revenue sharing? Medvedev farts and it's $100 million. What's the point in "share" some thousands of tickets selling.
What's really needed is good conditions and same rules for everyone. And it will never happen at the World Cup.