No Tkachuk, Zhamnov for Heritage Classic?

[Thai jet*]

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If the NHL didn't want the Jets to acknowledge their past they would have told them they couldn't use the Jets name.

If the NHL didn't want the Jets to use their old branding they would have never sold them the old logos when the team was purchased and moved.

If the NHL didn't want the Jets to acknowledge that the WHA years they would have stopped all the video tributes during the last 5+ seasons and at the Heritage Classic game.

If the NHL didn't want to call it a Heritage game they could have changed the name, it was the NHL after all that "hosted" this event.

If the NHL didn't agree with the Winnipeg Jets that they should have an alumni game with old Winnipeg Jet players they would have never allowed it. The NHL allowed this to happen, they put the event on after all with the help of True North. These are all facts. The NHL wanted this to happen and so it did.

If the NHL thought that the only thing that mattered in the NHL was stats in a guide book then the NHL would have never allowed Minnesota to invite North Stars players to their game.

The NHL has now established a new precedent on how the these games can be done. They made the decision to allow everything to happen that lead to this moment.

They also got 33,000+ into the stands that they may have not of if it was only about the Thrashers. There were no New Jets taking part as far as I know.

 

[Tekneek]

But read upon the history and mergers/diversions of the Seals/Barons/North Stars and Sharks for those who haven't. It's pretty interesting, and odd to see the North Stars taking part in an expansion draft 23 years after taking part in an expansion draft.

Yeah, first the "dispersal draft" and then the "expansion draft."

 

[Tekneek]

So this guy is going to argue that if a team moves to Quebec and becomes the Nordiques, that team is not allowed to have an alumni game featuring past Nordiques players because it is not the same franchise? Only the Avalanche can have an alumni game featuring the Stastny bros, etc. even though they never played in Colorado. That's ridiculous.

Am I "this guy" in your point? I never said they could not do it, but it is strange to have an alumni team composed of non-alumni, assuming that words have meanings. If they don't, then it really doesn't matter at all.

For what that is worth, my larger point is that Staios and Buchberger were the only actual alumni of the current NHL franchise in Winnipeg that were on the ice for the alumni game. It's fact that nobody has made any real case to refute. The 'other guy' in this scenario is the guy who can only talk about family photos in an old house to somehow explain how they aren't alumni, yet guys who played in Winnipeg before the current franchise even existed (it entered the league in 1999) are actual alumni.

 

[Tekneek]

And I'm telling you the same thing!

Aside from Ladd and Wheeler, none of those players in your list played for the Winnipeg Jets!

I didn't write the article. Now you suggest your own local media is trying to force you to accept a franchise history that isn't accurate?

Because the picture of your wife is on the wall, your saying I now have to celebrate your wedding anniversary with her!

What did I say about celebrating anything?

That's the scenario if Kovalchuk, Staios, Holik et al played in last Saturday's alumni game!

Staios did play in the game. I didn't say anything about the other guys. As far as alumni go, they are actual alumni of the franchise. That much is true.

In any case, the NHL has given us their blessing and our history will continue to be celebrated and honored by us, Winnipeg Jets fans as noted in the following links.

Fantastic. That's cool. Allowing something to be celebrated does not change the facts. If I celebrate Hannukah, my entire family line does not suddenly become Jewish. You are free to celebrate what you wish and how you wish, but that does not rewrite history.

Quote from Mark Chipman,

“When Gary (Bettman) told me that we were going to be able to host a Heritage Classic, it seemed to me it was worth waiting for that, to use the Heritage as a platform to really do the look back and draw attention back to all of that great history and, with our current organization, we can go forward together.”

They've done that, from a marketing point of view. They've embraced the inevitable that the market was forcing upon them from the start. That's a business decision. However, even he knows that his current team is an expansion franchise from 1999. You should learn that as well.

 

[varano]

Didn't Zhamnov have a degenerative hip condition that ended his career? He might not be able to skate.

Tkachuk had something similar except it was Big Macs that forced him to not fit into any size of skates anymore

 

[Tekneek]

Tkachuk is an actual alum of both franchses (Jets/Coyotes and Thrashers/Jets). It's a shame he wasn't able to suit up.

 

[Guardian17]

Am I "this guy" in your point? I never said they could not do it, but it is strange to have an alumni team composed of non-alumni, assuming that words have meanings. If they don't, then it really doesn't matter at all.

For what that is worth, my larger point is that Staios and Buchberger were the only actual alumni of the current NHL franchise in Winnipeg that were on the ice for the alumni game. It's fact that nobody has made any real case to refute. The 'other guy' in this scenario is the guy who can only talk about family photos in an old house to somehow explain how they aren't alumni, yet guys who played in Winnipeg before the current franchise even existed (it entered the league in 1999) are actual alumni.

And now you understand the point I have been making all along, "it really doesn't matter at all."

Despite your "facts", with the NHL's blessing, there are now two banners commemorating Bobby Hull's service with the Winnipeg Jets.

One is in Glendale, Arizona and the other is in Winnipeg, Manitoba.

I know you will argue the "fact" that one in Glendale is the "factually accurate" one.

Guess what, the NHL doesn't care.

So when you say in post #79...

"However, even he knows that his current team is an expansion franchise from 1999. You should learn that as well."

I know where this team originated, and I, like the NHL, don't care.

They're the Winnipeg Jets now and their history extends from 1972 to 1996 and from 2011 to the present.

I even own an official NHL Winnipeg Jets t-shirt that says "Est. 2011" even though your facts say it should be 1999.

So, go ahead and tell me that Kovalchuk, Staios, Holik et al should have been in the Alumni Game at IGF Field last Saturday, the NHL and I don't care.

Tell me Teemu Selanne was wrong to send out this tweet yesterday because he did not play in Alumni Game in Arizona last Saturday because the NHL and I don't care.



Go tell the Minnesota Wild fans that they were wrong to dress Mike Modano in a Minnesota North Stars Jersey for their Alumni Game earlier this year because he never played for the Minnesota Wild and the North Stars are now the Dallas Stars.

The NHL doesn't care.

The NHL does care about making money.

They make money by fostering an emotional connection to their fans.

Winnipeg Jets fans are emotionally invested in the "Hot Line", Dale Hawerchuk, Teemu Selanne and Patrick Laine.

Your "facts" don't matter at all.

 

[blues10]

WHA history is not counted in the NHL.

.

Interesting. Did the Phoenix Coyotes now Arizona Coyotes keep Bobby Hull's #9 jersey retired because of his 4 goals and 6 assists he scored in his 18 NHL games with the Jets? or his 638pts in 411 WHA games?

I believe the NHL Coyotes were counting his WHA Winnipeg Jets stats when they kept his jersey retired. Just food for thought.

TSN 3 - the local TV provider for Winnipeg Jets hockey and mouth piece of TNSE and the Winnipeg Jets hockey club had an interesting comment before the Jets game with the Stars tonight. Dennis Beyak the PBP announcer, announced that Patrick Laine was the 1st Winnipeg Jets 18 year old to get a hattrick since Dale Hawerchuk. Looks like the Jets are starting to go forward with Winnipeg Jets hockey history rather than franchise history. This is a complete about face and could be a sign of something to come.

 

[Tekneek]

Interesting. Did the Phoenix Coyotes now Arizona Coyotes keep Bobby Hull's #9 jersey retired because of his 4 goals and 6 assists he scored in his 18 NHL games with the Jets? or his 638pts in 411 WHA games?

You think they maintain WHA records? Point me to any indication that the NHL counts WHA records. I'm not talking about the retiring of numbers or honoring of players, I am talking about official records and franchise histories. Please point me to it.

 

[Tekneek]

And now you understand the point I have been making all along, "it really doesn't matter at all."

That you believe words have no meanings? I actually understood that very early on.

Despite your "facts", with the NHL's blessing, there are now two banners commemorating Bobby Hull's service with the Winnipeg Jets.

One is in Glendale, Arizona and the other is in Winnipeg, Manitoba.

I know you will argue the "fact" that one in Glendale is the "factually accurate" one.

Why would I do that? They could hang one in every arena and it wouldn't mean he played for all of those franchises.

Guess what, the NHL doesn't care.

Ok? Tell me when I claimed that I spoke for the league, please.

So when you say in post #79...

"However, even he knows that his current team is an expansion franchise from 1999. You should learn that as well."

I know where this team originated, and I, like the NHL, don't care.

In so much as they maintain historical records for franchises and the league, they definitely care. I never suggested anything more than that.

They're the Winnipeg Jets now and their history extends from 1972 to 1996 and from 2011 to the present.

A team named that existed during those years, but they're not the same team. On one hand you admit this fact, but then slip back into denying it once more.

even own an official NHL Winnipeg Jets t-shirt that says "Est. 2011" even though your facts say it should be 1999.

You're claiming merchandise is now what defines official record keeping in the league now? I suppose it makes as much sense as anything else you've proposed as being official.

So, go ahead and tell me that Kovalchuk, Staios, Holik et al should have been in the Alumni Game at IGF Field last Saturday, the NHL and I don't care.

Not once did I say that. Although, for some reason, you keep denying Staios played in the game. He was there.

Tell me Teemu Selanne was wrong to send out this tweet yesterday because he did not play in Alumni Game in Arizona last Saturday because the NHL and I don't care.

Why would I do that? They had an alumni team consisting entirely of non-alumni. It's a fact. The fact that a lot of people embrace that and like it does not make it any less true.

Go tell the Minnesota Wild fans that they were wrong to dress Mike Modano in a Minnesota North Stars Jersey for their Alumni Game earlier this year because he never played for the Minnesota Wild and the North Stars are now the Dallas Stars.

He didn't become alumni of the Minnesota Wild by suiting up for their alumni team, did he?

The NHL doesn't care.

I refer you to my previous statement : Tell me when I claimed that I spoke for the league, please.

The NHL does care about making money.

Of course they do. That and protecting the money they've already made. They, as a matter of business, care about very little else in any meaningful way.

They make money by fostering an emotional connection to their fans.

Doubt I made any contrary argument.

Winnipeg Jets fans are emotionally invested in the "Hot Line", Dale Hawerchuk, Teemu Selanne and Patrick Laine.

Your "facts" don't matter at all.

I don't doubt it. I know you've been enclosing "facts" in quotes because you want to get a reaction out of me. The problem is that everything I've stated has been fact. Not an opinion and not an emotional plea. Your arguments are largely built on emotion. That's fine, but strong feelings aren't facts by themselves. A lot of people really wanted the sun to go around the Earth back in the day, but opposition to heliocentrism with lots of strong feelings did not change the truth.

 

[Guardian17]

Why would I do that? They had an alumni team consisting entirely of non-alumni. It's a fact. The fact that a lot of people embrace that and like it does not make it any less true.


I don't doubt it. I know you've been enclosing "facts" in quotes because you want to get a reaction out of me. The problem is that everything I've stated has been fact. Not an opinion and not an emotional plea. Your arguments are largely built on emotion. That's fine, but strong feelings aren't facts by themselves. A lot of people really wanted the sun to go around the Earth back in the day, but opposition to heliocentrism with lots of strong feelings did not change the truth.

Alumni has many definitions.

Just because you define alumni a certain way does not make it a universal definition.

The reason I enclosed "facts" in quotes is your "facts" are just your "opinions" of what constitutes alumni.

The NHL and Winnipeg Jets have defined "Alumni" as anyone who played for the Winnipeg Jets from 1972-1996 and from 2011 to the present.

Clearly, you do not agree with this and that is your prerogative.

So when you say,

"They had an alumni team consisting entirely of non-alumni. It's a fact."

It's not a fact, it's your opinion on what constitutes an alumnus.

And in the case of the Winnipeg Jets Alumni, you are wrong, it was a team full of alumni.

That's why they called it an Alumni Game!

 

[Tekneek]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/alumni?s=t

 

[Guardian17]

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/news/jets-and-oilers-announce-heritage-classic-alumni-rosters/c-892391

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

people are still making a big deal about this

 

[Tekneek]

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/news/jets-and-oilers-announce-heritage-classic-alumni-rosters/c-892391

Right, they tried to redefine the word. That's ultimately fine for an exhibition event and all that, but the official records don't somehow revert due to it.

 

[Guardian17]

Right, they tried to redefine the word. That's ultimately fine for an exhibition event and all that, but the official records don't somehow revert due to it.

Again, the records have to go somewhere and since there is no NHL team currently in Atlanta, I have no problem safekeeping them.

Just like in my example, I put the other family's photos in a box in the basement.

If/when Atlanta gets another NHL franchise they are welcome to take possession of their records.

That does not mean, as you suggest, that Kovalchuck, Staios, Holik et al are now Winnipeg Jets Alumni.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/alumni?s=t

Tekneek what could possibly possess you to spend this much time of your life fretting about who fans cheer for?

You are factually correct to cling to the info that the WHA / Jets 1.0 franchise was moved to Phoenix and that the Jets 2.0 were purchased from Atlanta. What that weekend was about was celebrating the hockey history of Winnipeg's professional teams. Honoring the players who played in this city for these fans in that jersey. The alumni of the Atlanta Thrashers would not have drawn anywhere near 33,000 and Gretzky, Messier, Coffey, Kurri and company would not have been there to play them.

The Thrashers history is Atlanta's, yes we "own" it but it will never mean as much to us as it did to their fans. The same way Jets 1.0 history would never mean as much to Phoenix fans. They have their own 20 year history.

Your main point of contention is in the definition of "alumni". As stated earlier the NHL has fully supported this and franchise statistics have changed in the past (NFL Browns "re-acquired" their history from the Ravens). So anything can happen in the future because this is sports.
It's about fans enjoying a game they love.

Ask Kovalchuk what city he has a stronger connection with - Atlanta or Winnipeg? Ask Dale Hawerchuk what city he has a stronger connection with - Phoenix or Winnipeg?

Players can get traded, coaches can get fired, GM's lose their jobs and yes teams get moved. The history of a franchise moves with the team, until it doesn't. The NHL can do whatever it wants.
Selanne's rookie record belongs to Phx? Sure except in the way that matters most. It was our entire province that lived through that season. I was there to see many of those games and I was there on the Heritage weekend to see him work his magic one more time.

The players that played the games and the fans that cheered them on mean more than any business transaction or technicality.

Hockey has a rich history lets celebrate it and not be petty about things. Acknowledging the history of where your team came from is cool. But in no way does that compare to celebrating nearly 40 years of Winnipeg hockey.