Confirmed Signing with Link: [NJD] Dougie Hamilton signs with the Devils (7 years, $9M AAV) [Part II]

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

the Devils are the last team in the league that should be worried about cap implications down the line.

You get good players and worry about the rest later.

 

[Smitty426]

Are we talking about a one year contract for Hampus? Cap management is a mid to long term thing.

No a couple yrs
Without counting PK because he is gone this yr
The D is 23.5% of their cap
Not that much of you are considering yourself ready to compete

 

[TBF1972]

No a couple yrs
Without counting PK because he is gone this yr
The D is 23.5% of their cap
Not that much of you are considering yourself ready to compete

severson's contract is up one year later, same for graves and siegenthaler. won't they ask for a raise or have to be replaced by better players to be competitive? or do you expect to replace them all with elc's?
ty comes off his elc the same year. bridge or long term? either way you can add at least 3m additional cap to the defense.

obviously you can assign cap space in very different variations to the positions. the devils only have two long term contracts (nico and dougie) and therefore plenty of flexibility. a full roster has 23 contracts (13/14 forwards, 7/8 defensemen, 2 goalies). equally distributed that's about 3.5m per contract. i wouldn't assign more than 28.5m (35%) to the defense, in the devils' case maybe even less, as we hope some of the first round picks at the forward position garner substantially more than the average.

if we assume a 7 man d-core, you should assign 4.5 - 5m for the bottom 3 defensemen. elc's could save you a few dollars for some time, but defenseman often take their full elc years for development. dougie at 9m is a given. let's assume severson resign at 5m, ty gets a 4.5m bridge deal and hampus replaces graves in the top 4.

9,0m dougie
x,xm hampus
5,0m severson
4,5m ty smith
4.5m bottom three
------------------------
28.5m total

if you go on the high side with 28.5m for your d, you have only 5.5m for lindholm. it most likely isn't enough and i wouldn't compromise in other areas unless the devils have some of their forwards and/or severson/smith on cheap mid to long term contracts.

 

[Smitty426]

severson's contract is up one year later, same for graves and siegenthaler. won't they ask for a raise or have to be replaced by better players to be competitive? or do you expect to replace them all with elc's?
ty comes off his elc the same year. bridge or long term? either way you can add at least 3m additional cap to the defense.

obviously you can assign cap space in very different variations to the positions. the devils only have two long term contracts (nico and dougie) and therefore plenty of flexibility. a full roster has 23 contracts (13/14 forwards, 7/8 defensemen, 2 goalies). equally distributed that's about 3.5m per contract. i wouldn't assign more than 28.5m (35%) to the defense, in the devils' case maybe even less, as we hope some of the first round picks at the forward position garner substantially more than the average.

if we assume a 7 man d-core, you should assign 4.5 - 5m for the bottom 3 defensemen. elc's could save you a few dollars for some time, but defenseman often take their full elc years for development. dougie at 9m is a given. let's assume severson resign at 5m, ty gets a 4.5m bridge deal and hampus replaces graves in the top 4.

9,0m dougie
x,xm hampus
5,0m severson
4,5m ty smith
4.5m bottom three
------------------------
28.5m total

if you go on the high side with 28.5m for your d, you have only 5.5m for lindholm. it most likely isn't enough and i wouldn't compromise in other areas unless the devils have some of their forwards and/or severson/smith on cheap mid to long term contracts.

I read some more on Graves last night
He's better than what my first thoughts were. I think the timing with Lindholm being a UFA and seeing what Graves can do with Dougie might help Fitz

Your #s are pretty much on target
I'm expecting the cap to go up when those contracts are up. Not a ton but up. Some of those prospects should make noise, maybe Bahl cancels out Sieg (but not a ton of $ diff there)
Does Walsh become a guy who replaces Sevs? I'm finally happy to see us discuss how to manage what looks like a good D

 

[TBF1972]

I read some more on Graves last night
He's better than what my first thoughts were. I think the timing with Lindholm being a UFA and seeing what Graves can do with Dougie might help Fitz

Your #s are pretty much on target
I'm expecting the cap to go up when those contracts are up. Not a ton but up. Some of those prospects should make noise, maybe Bahl cancels out Sieg (but not a ton of $ diff there)
Does Walsh become a guy who replaces Sevs? I'm finally happy to see us discuss how to manage what looks like a good D

in regards to walsh we probably disagree big time. i don't see a nhl regular in him. if he turns into a #6/7 d i would call it a success story. i don't see top4 potential and if so he would duplicate, what the devils bought in hamilton in a much higher quality. smith/severson wasn't bad. smith/walsh? i don't see it at all.

 

[MartyOwns]

I wouldn't trade Luke for a 3C either. I just mean he should be on the table generally to improve the team. Like I said, I am not as high on Luke Hughes as others.

If a guy like Chychrun were available, I don't see why you would keep Luke off the table.

hey i wanted clarke, so i get it. but regardless of how you feel about hughes, he is our #1 defensive prospect, he fits into our timeline, he's cost controlled for the next 5 years, his brother is projected to be our #1C...for all those reasons, he can't be on the table. guys like that, in circumstances like this, don't get traded a few months after getting drafted. especially if he can play on the right side (which truthfully i have no idea if he can).

 

[bossram]

hey i wanted clarke, so i get it. but regardless of how you feel about hughes, he is our #1 defensive prospect, he fits into our timeline, he's cost controlled for the next 5 years, his brother is projected to be our #1C...for all those reasons, he can't be on the table. guys like that, in circumstances like this, don't get traded a few months after getting drafted. especially if he can play on the right side (which truthfully i have no idea if he can).

I know what the circumstances are. I know he won't be traded. But that shouldn't matter if the right deal present itself.

The Devils really should be looking to become competitive right now. The clock is ticking on Hamilton's best years. Luke isn't going to be an impact player for at least a couple of seasons. If a young-ish, top-pairing defenseman were available, you'd have to weigh your options on a trade.

 

[MartyOwns]

I know what the circumstances are. I know he won't be traded. But that shouldn't matter if the right deal present itself.

The Devils really should be looking to become competitive right now. The clock is ticking on Hamilton's best years. Luke isn't going to be an impact player for at least a couple of seasons. If a young-ish, top-pairing defenseman were available, you'd have to weigh your options on a trade.

always a fan of weighing options, but it's just not realistic. and i don't think the clock is ticking they way you're describing it.

guys i see joining the team as regulars this season:

foote

guys i see potentially joining the team as regulars in 22-23:

holtz
the mukman
mercer
bahl
clarke
vuko
walsh
okhotiuk

guys i see potentially joining the team as regulars in 23-24:

hughes
stillman
misyul

we are still several years away from being serious contenders, there's no reason to rush anything. you don't stop 100 feet before the finish line of a marathon to make iced tea. you finish the marathon then you make the iced tea.

 

[McDuffz88]

I know what the circumstances are. I know he won't be traded. But that shouldn't matter if the right deal present itself.

The Devils really should be looking to become competitive right now. The clock is ticking on Hamilton's best years. Luke isn't going to be an impact player for at least a couple of seasons. If a young-ish, top-pairing defenseman were available, you'd have to weigh your options on a trade.

So what you want to do is rush our approach to competing? You want to sell off Luke Hughes? You realize in doing that you immediately piss off Jack & when it's time for his contract I will guarantee you he will remember that & take his revenge on us by giving us a hard time. The last thing I would want to do is sacrifice the future for a half attempt at a playoff run. We are trying to be a professional organization that attracts big names. You don't accomplish that by pissing off the name value guys you have. Think of it this way. Would you rather work for a scumbag like Jeff Bezos who doesn't give a crap about you, or would you rather go to a job that treats you with class & dignity even if it means a little less money. At the end of the day if you treat your players like trash they will remember that & it destroys the ability to attract names.

 

[Eggtimer]

the Devils are the last team in the league that should be worried about cap implications down the line.

You get good players and worry about the rest later.

I don’t know man. For now yes we have lots of cap room but if all or most of our prospects hit , we will need to shuffle the deck chairs and even trade some assets away. We could potentially have 3-5 very good LHD. If Huhes breaks out this year along with Smith , Bratt , Foote , Holtz , Mercer , Boqvist , plus any other surprises and we could have our hands full. I agree somewhat where if a forward equivalent of Hamilton becomes available then maybe act on it but out cap cushion we have is not going to last forever. We have to be smart about planning for the next few years.Identify the core / elite pieces and build around those .

 

[bossram]

always a fan of weighing options, but it's just not realistic. and i don't think the clock is ticking they way you're describing it.

guys i see joining the team as regulars this season:

foote

guys i see potentially joining the team as regulars in 22-23:

holtz
the mukman
mercer
bahl
clarke
vuko
walsh
okhotiuk

guys i see potentially joining the team as regulars in 23-24:

hughes
stillman
misyul

we are still several years away from being serious contenders, there's no reason to rush anything. you don't stop 100 feet before the finish line of a marathon to make iced tea. you finish the marathon then you make the iced tea.

Graves is a win-now move. Hamilton is clearly a win-now move. Those guys are in their primes now. If the Devils consider themselves several years from contending, why make those moves now? Just find some stop-gap players and don't invest your draft picks and cap space.

So what you want to do is rush our approach to competing? You want to sell off Luke Hughes? You realize in doing that you immediately piss off Jack & when it's time for his contract I will guarantee you he will remember that & take his revenge on us by giving us a hard time. The last thing I would want to do is sacrifice the future for a half attempt at a playoff run. We are trying to be a professional organization that attracts big names. You don't accomplish that by pissing off the name value guys you have. Think of it this way. Would you rather work for a scumbag like Jeff Bezos who doesn't give a crap about you, or would you rather go to a job that treats you with class & dignity even if it means a little less money. At the end of the day if you treat your players like trash they will remember that & it destroys the ability to attract names.

Fitzgerald is clearly accelerating the approach. He signed the biggest freea agent available who is currently in his prime. He traded picks to add another guy he views as a top-four defenseman. If the goal isn't to move into a competitive phase, what was the point of those moves? Just find some stop-gaps (like the Tatar and Bernier signings) rather than mortgaging the future. I'm merely saying, if this is the direction of the Devils, they shouldn't half-ass it. IMO the Metro is wide open this season.

If they drafted Luke for reasons of making Jack feel good, then they shouldn't have picked him in the first place. That's a terrible way to run your organization. Everyone also understands it's a business. You're probably not going to play on the same team as your brother. That's how it is. And let's get real. The best way to attract free agents and get your player to re-sign is by being a winning team.

 

[McDuffz88]

Graves is a win-now move. Hamilton is clearly a win-now move. Those guys are in their primes now. If the Devils consider themselves several years from contending, why make those moves now? Just find some stop-gap players and don't invest your draft picks and cap space.



Fitzgerald is clearly accelerating the approach. He signed the biggest freea agent available who is currently in his prime. He traded picks to add another guy he views as a top-four defenseman. If the goal isn't to move into a competitive phase, what was the point of those moves? Just find some stop-gaps (like the Tatar and Bernier signings) rather than mortgaging the future. I'm merely saying, if this is the direction of the Devils, they shouldn't half-ass it. IMO the Metro is wide open this season.

If they drafted Luke for reasons of making Jack feel good, then they shouldn't have picked him in the first place. That's a terrible way to run your organization. Everyone also understands it's a business. You're probably not going to play on the same team as your brother. That's how it is. And let's get real. The best way to attract free agents and get your player to re-sign is by being a winning team.

I completely agree with you. He is accelerating the rebuild & there's nothing wrong with that if you do it correctly. But the problem is that when your building your team around Jack, you just cannot trade his younger bro you just drafted 2 months ago. It's a move that will come back to haunt us when it's time to negotiate Jack's contract. I was also one of the few devils fan who on the board actively said we shouldn't draft Luke for that reason alone. In my opinion mixing family & business usually doesn't end well. Hopefully I'm wrong & it's a Sedin scenario which would be great. But as of right now regardless we can't trade Luke. It would make us look like idiots.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I don’t know man. For now yes we have lots of cap room but if all or most of our prospects hit , we will need to shuffle the deck chairs and even trade some assets away. We could potentially have 3-5 very good LHD. If Huhes breaks out this year along with Smith , Bratt , Foote , Holtz , Mercer , Boqvist , plus any other surprises and we could have our hands full. I agree somewhat where if a forward equivalent of Hamilton becomes available then maybe act on it but out cap cushion we have is not going to last forever. We have to be smart about planning for the next few years.Identify the core / elite pieces and build around those .

Having to pay good players is never a problem. If you can't afford them, you can trade them elsewhere for younger, cheaper assets.

The problem lies when you have a bunch of mediocre/old players making a lot of money (ala San Jose) and you are basically screwed. The Devils will not be in that position anytime soon even if they tried.

 

[MartyOwns]

Graves is a win-now move. Hamilton is clearly a win-now move. Those guys are in their primes now. If the Devils consider themselves several years from contending, why make those moves now? Just find some stop-gap players and don't invest your draft picks and cap space.

i'm not really sold on graves, but neither of the guys you mentioned will be past their prime in a couple of years. i see us as a bubble team this year, a playoff team the following year, and a legitimate contender the year after. hamilton and graves both fit in that timeline.

you can't always choose when an elite defenseman is going to make it to market- and in fact, that very rarely happens- but when you see it, and you have a need, and you have the cap space, you pounce. regardless of arbitrary fan-invented timelines.

i'm sorry, but in no reality does it make sense to trade hughes away at this point. there are positions we are/will be loaded at that we can trade from if an opportunity presents itself.

The best way to attract free agents and get your player to re-sign is by being a winning team.

yeah i don't agree with that at all. that's the way it should be, but it ain't.

 

[HyperX]

Graves is a win-now move. Hamilton is clearly a win-now move. Those guys are in their primes now. If the Devils consider themselves several years from contending, why make those moves now? Just find some stop-gap players and don't invest your draft picks and cap space.



Fitzgerald is clearly accelerating the approach. He signed the biggest freea agent available who is currently in his prime. He traded picks to add another guy he views as a top-four defenseman. If the goal isn't to move into a competitive phase, what was the point of those moves? Just find some stop-gaps (like the Tatar and Bernier signings) rather than mortgaging the future. I'm merely saying, if this is the direction of the Devils, they shouldn't half-ass it. IMO the Metro is wide open this season.

If they drafted Luke for reasons of making Jack feel good, then they shouldn't have picked him in the first place. That's a terrible way to run your organization. Everyone also understands it's a business. You're probably not going to play on the same team as your brother. That's how it is. And let's get real. The best way to attract free agents and get your player to re-sign is by being a winning team.

Win-now moves /=\ contending

win-now moves, yes; to help improve our win totals now. That simply means an improvement on our win totals the last few years

so before we were a bottom-10 team two straight years, now we'd like to barely miss the playoffs or sneak into a wild card.

teams cant not add talent to the roster simply because theyre young and rebuilding; thats how you end up too deep in the 'no talented players and only potential' hole and cant get out for a long while. Plus it affects the players, even the young ones.

Hamilton Graves Tatar Bernier are all brought here to help us win more now; but we arent silly enough to think were contending or anywhere near.

Hamilton is signed to seven years also with Graves able to sign long-term if he does well, so its not like we rented guys either

and id recommend not telling Devils fans 'if they picked Luke only for Jack...'. It isnt going to be received well and Im refraining from commenting on it myself lol

 

[bossram]

Win-now moves /=\ contending

win-now moves, yes; to help improve our win totals now. That simply means an improvement on our win totals the last few years

so before we were a bottom-10 team two straight years, now we'd like to barely miss the playoffs or sneak into a wild card.

teams cant not add talent to the roster simply because theyre young and rebuilding; thats how you end up too deep in the 'no talented players and only potential' hole and cant get out for a long while. Plus it affects the players, even the young ones.

Hamilton Graves Tatar Bernier are all brought here to help us win more now; but we arent silly enough to think were contending or anywhere near.

Hamilton is signed to seven years also with Graves able to sign long-term if he does well, so its not like we rented guys either

and id recommend not telling Devils fans 'if they picked Luke only for Jack...'. It isnt going to be received well and Im refraining from commenting on it myself lol

Going from a bottom-1o to a mediocre or bubble team is even worse. It's NHL purgatory. That shouldn't be the goal.

I like the Devils, am cheering for them, and would consider myself a fan. I actually think they can do damage in the Metro, which is why I'd like to see them lean into becoming a real competitive team. They have prospect/draft capital to spare to do so, and can still backfill the lineup with guys like Mercer and Foote as they develop.

I'm not saying that's the rationale for picking Hughes. But this is the rationale some Devils fans are using for why Luke should be untouchable. And it's bad reasoning.

i'm not really sold on graves, but neither of the guys you mentioned will be past their prime in a couple of years. i see us as a bubble team this year, a playoff team the following year, and a legitimate contender the year after. hamilton and graves both fit in that timeline.

you can't always choose when an elite defenseman is going to make it to market- and in fact, that very rarely happens- but when you see it, and you have a need, and you have the cap space, you pounce. regardless of arbitrary fan-invented timelines.

i'm sorry, but in no reality does it make sense to trade hughes away at this point. there are positions we are/will be loaded at that we can trade from if an opportunity presents itself.

yeah i don't agree with that at all. that's the way it should be, but it ain't.

Hamilton is 28. How many more prime years does he really have? 2, maybe 3? You see a lot of formerly top-end defensemen start to fall off at this age. And I'm in no way slagging the Hamilton signing. I love Dougie. But I think once you add a guy like him, you've got to maximize the performance you'll get from him, especially considering the significant amount of cap/salary invested.

Again, I'm not saying trade Luke just because. I'm saying he should be on the table if the right deal presents itself (e.g. a Jakob Chychrun or something).

As an aside, I do enjoy debating with the Devils' guys here. Y'all are infinitely more reasonable than most of the guys on the Canucks board.

 

[Smitty426]

in regards to walsh we probably disagree big time. i don't see a nhl regular in him. if he turns into a #6/7 d i would call it a success story. i don't see top4 potential and if so he would duplicate, what the devils bought in hamilton in a much higher quality. smith/severson wasn't bad. smith/walsh? i don't see it at all.

No we do agree I mean Walsh as a bottom RHD but joining the squad I was not clear (saw that after I wrote it)

 

[HyperX]

Going from a bottom-1o to a mediocre or bubble team is even worse. It's NHL purgatory. That shouldn't be the goal.

I like the Devils, am cheering for them, and would consider myself a fan. I actually think they can do damage in the Metro, which is why I'd like to see them lean into becoming a real competitive team. They have prospect/draft capital to spare to do so, and can still backfill the lineup with guys like Mercer and Foote as they develop.

I'm not saying that's the rationale for picking Hughes. But this is the rationale some Devils fans are using for why Luke should be untouchable. And it's bad reasoning.



Hamilton is 28. How many more prime years does he really have? 2, maybe 3? You see a lot of formerly top-end defensemen start to fall off at this age. And I'm in no way slagging the Hamilton signing. I love Dougie. But I think once you add a guy like him, you've got to maximize the performance you'll get from him, especially considering the significant amount of cap/salary invested.

Again, I'm not saying trade Luke just because. I'm saying he should be on the table if the right deal presents itself (e.g. a Jakob Chychrun or something).

As an aside, I do enjoy debating with the Devils' guys here. Y'all are infinitely more reasonable than most of the guys on the Canucks board.

So what are teams expected to do? Go from bottom-10 to top-10 in one season?

im confused as to how you expect a team to get over the hump if they never sign anyone worth signing

 

[bossram]

So what are teams expected to do? Go from bottom-10 to top-10 in one season?

im confused as to how you expect a team to get over the hump if they never sign anyone worth signing

I literally never said don't sign anyone.

If they wanted to keep building more slowly, then they could just let their prospects continue to develop. And, like I said elsewhere, sign some stop-gap free agents to fill out roster spaces.

If you're going to sign top-free agents to make your club competitive, make sure the club is competitive. If you've just acquired a guy like Hamilton, the absolute minimum goal should be making the playoffs.

 

[HyperX]

I literally never said don't sign anyone.

If they wanted to keep building more slowly, then they could just let their prospects continue to develop. And, like I said elsewhere, sign some stop-gap free agents to fill out roster spaces.

If you're going to sign top-free agents to make your club competitive, make sure the club is competitive. If you've just acquired a guy like Hamilton, the absolute minimum goal should be making the playoffs.

But thats exactly what you insinuated

you said 'stop gap guys' which dont move the needle so youre still bottom-10.

you also said being middle of the pack is 'purgatory'

so yes, you expect a team to go from bottom to top 10 in one offseason by signing big name free agents.

thats NHL20 type stuff, no NHL team goes from nobodies to somebodies strictly off young drafted talent

 

[Eggtimer]

Please delete. Posted in wrong thread by mistake

 

[bossram]

But thats exactly what you insinuated

you said 'stop gap guys' which dont move the needle so youre still bottom-10.

you also said being middle of the pack is 'purgatory'

so yes, you expect a team to go from bottom to top 10 in one offseason by signing big name free agents.

thats NHL20 type stuff, no NHL team goes from nobodies to somebodies strictly off young drafted talent

Yes. If your team is signing big-name free agents, I think the goal should be to be a top club.

Sign top-free agents when the club is ready to commit to contending. The goal shouldn't be "sign top free agent and finish 18th". Otherwise, just continue to build slowly.

 

[My3Sons]

Yes. If your team is signing big-name free agents, I think the goal should be to be a top club.

Sign top-free agents when the club is ready to commit to contending. The goal shouldn't be "sign top free agent and finish 18th". Otherwise, just continue to build slowly.

You know that finishing 18th isn’t the goal. The team has clearly planted its flag between Hischier and Hughes. Setting fire to season after season and sending out expiring vets is hopefully over for now. Maybe they send out Subban if they are out of the playoff picture this season but that’s probably it. At some point the team has to take a stand or they will struggle to improve. How many years will it be until Luke Hughes arrives? Three? What about next year’s first pick? Starting to try isn’t a bad idea. The team has a bunch of two year guys in Graves Tatar and Bernier. The only long term guy is Hamilton. One contract shouldn’t cripple the team if they manage the bottom six players correctly. Assuming Jack and Nico improve over the next two years Hamilton should help that process.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

Yes. If your team is signing big-name free agents, I think the goal should be to be a top club.

Sign top-free agents when the club is ready to commit to contending. The goal shouldn't be "sign top free agent and finish 18th". Otherwise, just continue to build slowly.

The Devils leading point producers last year were 23, 19, 22, 22, 25, 22, 20, 26, 31 (Subban - last season with NJ), and 35 (Zajac traded). There is no realistic way to turn a team that reliant on younger players into a team that looks like a veteran contender in one off season.

 

[McDuffz88]

The Devils leading point producers last year were 23, 19, 22, 22, 25, 22, 20, 26, 31 (Subban - last season with NJ), and 35 (Zajac traded). There is no realistic way to turn a team that reliant on younger players into a team that looks like a veteran contender in one off season.

Dude I don't know where your getting your stats but they are completely wrong. Did you literally just make those numbers up? Your saying the most points was 31 with everyone else in low 20s? Uhh we had Zacha with 35 points, Hughes with 31, Sharangovich with 30, Bratt with 30, Wood had 25, Kuokkanen had 25 I can keep listing. So ?????????