Recalled/Assigned: Nieves assigned to Hartford

[nyr2k2]

That's some sociopathic level of lunacy. I remember reading that, and beyond the hilarity of the synergy thing, I was just angry.

 

[bernmeister]

Lest we forget

"I have been taking some ribbing for this for some time, and I have decided to address this in its own thread, once and for all.

Understand, sure there may be something going on that we do not know about. Until that emerges and is visible, we have to set that aside.

Which means we go with what we see. Which is thus...

"Boo" Nieves is a 2nd rounder C prospect for NYR. He seems to have gotten short shrift from mgmt, although that was mostly under the win now crowd the year before and the continued stupidity of AV last year. He has important strategic value.

In a vacuum, he is NOT a 1C. That, however, is irrelevant.
What is overriding and key is that he COULD be a stopgap placeholder at 1C until a better option comes along, and meanwhile he looks like his theoretical holding down the fort or growing into the position will reap considerable rewards.

First, qualifications. He is big, strong, an actual C, not a makeshift pivot, and he is good on faceoffs. That much is obvious, along with the fact he skates like the wind. Not elite Kreider speed, but ample get up and go. He has basic/basic + playmaking skills; that much is evident from a very small sample of when he got a cup of coffee w/NYR last year. He did little on 4th line, then got involved with Buch + I think Zuc, and that was enough to get some results. Now this is an extremely small sample I admit, but it suggests that he plays up or down to the level of his teammates -- he would not be the first player to demonstrate this. As to why did not lite it up in the A, most Wolfpack Fs suck, and none are a strategic match.

X factor. Now we get to the bottom line: Kreider - Nieves likely synergy.
Kreider IS our 1LW. That is set in stone.The linemates he gets, those are de facto our first line. IMO we were not great shakes at first line w/Stepan, who could not keep up w/speedier linemates. When finally, last year, we got Zib on first line with CK we had real chemistry, b'c they could dominate. Zib is fast enough, but is more of a bull. However, while a legit C, he effectively was a bookend W, doing a lot of work in the corners. If we got a complementary guy who was tough enough, fast enough, able to help with basic setup, etc, and let those 2 drive the play, that would be ideal. Nieves is that guy. If he grows into more, terrif. But even if all he is doing is providing synergy and helping Kreider exploit his potential to dominate, that's enough.

Now I'm posting this thread in this forum so, having provided rationale behind it, big picture scenarios for the Rangers going forward can be addressed.
Immediately, Kreider - Nieves - Zib would be our 1st line.
However, I expect a deal of Zib + to StL for Parayko +.
I also see Andersson + available to pivot starved MON for a 2019 1st+.
Now those deals may/may not go thru, but the point is those 2 are available in a seller's market for Cs if the return is good enough, and using Boo in lockstep with Kreider to create synergy helps make that happen.

If/when those or similar deals happen, our projection is
1st line = Kreider - Nieves - stopgap showcase replaced by Kravtsov
Would be worth experience of this year just to get Kreider and Nieves comfortable and ready for Krav.

Now I like Hayes, he has size and adequate speed, has improved loads of FOs and is a great def matchup C. I get he might be able to tutor Boo on one or two def tricks. He is our 2C.

Chytil is our 3C.
Stop gap like Lettieri is 4C, then maybe he switches to RW once Howden is ready, IMO second half this season, 2019.
Nieves
Hayes
Chytil
Lettieri

gives way to
Nieves
Hayes w/Chytil promoted to 2nd line wing [Kravtsov will seize 1RW next season]
Howden
Lettieri

If we get Panarin as a UFA to do W w/Hayes + Chytil, that would be sick.

Lots of work to do, but the big picture is visible.

As for the naysayers who insist on killing this, I say again, there could be something we don't know about.
But have to give guys max opportunity to succeed and not kill their spirit.

We had a goalie, Skapski, he won it in training camp competition, but did not get the job. Saved us when Hank went down for a month. We got Raanta. Now no one is complaining about getting Raanta, including me. But we could have showcased this guy better and moved him too. Instead, we crushed his spirit, then he got injured, he gave up, he sucked, and we cut him. Total waste and lost of opportunity to get something out of the asset.

My hope is Nieves is smarter. Realize for whatever reason AV, who def should NOT have been extended was, and he was not getting a shot, as AV famously prefers vets. Now we should either have played this guy or saved his elc. We saved his elc. Fine. But now we have to give him every opportunity to show he can cut the mustard. If he can't that's fine, that's on him.

But it needs be acknowledged that Ranger braintrust hopefully get that their best option, at least until something better drops in their lap, is to play this kid next to Kreider and see what that dynamic yields.

It is not honest to infer that Nieves does not have the potential so he isn't even worth the try when the obvious physical measurables confirm otherwise.

So for all of the above, expect Nieves sort of already earmarked in the lineup, and for Zib and Andersson to get moved --- if the price is right."

I thank you for faithfully, most accurately verbatim reminding of what I said.

I retreat nothing from it.

I said Nieves would be 1C only if he had chemistry w/Kreider.
He has not been given that chance, in any way, let alone a meaningful one.
I think it is fair to say the onus on that was too much deference to AV, ef him. Nieves did not light up everything without Kreider, merely played productively, not outstanding, but that is my point: Nieves + Kreider need to be paired to see if there is great chemistry to the point of synergy. The reality of concussions are unfortunate.

Unless and until Nieves is given that specific reasonable opportunity -- and I don't mean one game or a couple of shifts, cold and without practice --- unless that is provided, what I said is fair game for dif of opinion, but it is not wrong until the experiment is properly made.

I said Kratsov a lefty shooting RW, might be a good righty with them, but he might well be pivot material, and I understand he has some experience at C, I think.

And Howden, projected as 2C w/outside 1C possibilities, has exceeded expectations.

Both are clearly more talented than Boo and will eventually take the 1C.

But as I said clearly, while we move Zib to not take on his NMC, going w/other Fs for Sens 1st +, and Hayes does a Chapman-Yankees to return to us next season, there is no reason not to try this stopgap experiment. None.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

We need a hall of fame/shame thread where beauties like that can be archived for future generations.

Agree.

 

[egelband]

@bernmeister what have you seen from Boo that makes you think he’s an NHLer, let alone a first liner? I mean, he has seemed pretty bad from what I saw. Like, stone hands and head down all the time. But I’d love to be wrong.

 

[bernmeister]

@bernmeister what have you seen from Boo that makes you think he’s an NHLer, let alone a first liner? I mean, he has seemed pretty bad from what I saw. Like, stone hands and head down all the time. But I’d love to be wrong.

pre concussion, he had a brief stint here.
Did nothing w/4th liners.
Then had I think Zuc + Buch, and got good results.
Then, that stupid idiot AV had him shipped out in favor of a vet.

Those results prove he can cut it here.

1st line, I agree is something else.
But I am not saying he is on the order of Howden let alone Zib.

All I am saying is on paper, he has the size and speed to hang with Kreider. Kreider IS the 1LW on this team. His pivot IS the 1C, that's where you get the 1C designation.
CK is more of the offense catalyst both as to tip ins and creating space, and both he and Boo benefit from a complementary high end RW yet to be determined.

But Nieves is big, strong, would contribute to setting up the wings who would drive and finish the plays. He has adequate/+ passing skills. I don't see stone hands. I don't say he is the other end, smooth as silk mitts, either. I see he has adequate minimally necessary, not pretty, but enough to get the job done. Again, he was adequate to pivot Zuc + Buch previously, he can probably do that also with Kreids and a RW counterpart, since he has the speed.

Acceptably responsible defensively. Not the second coming of Jan Erixon. Just enough to handle his own assignment and not make more distraction for his Ws.

Acceptable face off results, would improve with more shifts if he were 1C.

-----
not one isolated shift or similar underuse.
give a legit shot to get familiar with Kreider, see if there's chemistry
worst that could happen is what appears might be the case is not
best case scenario, I'm right

Between the concussion and the emergence of Howden/projection of Kratsov, Nieves as 1C, even if it worked, would be short lived.

But there is ZERO reason to not even try for the stop gap.

 

[darko]

Only a minor setback on his path to becoming a PPG player.

 

[eco's bones]

Nieves is not one of our best 12 forwards. He's not even one of our best 4 centers. That's why he's in Hartford or one of the reasons why. It wasn't lucky for him to get injured in the first game of preseason and sometimes you need luck. He needs to play well in Hartford and work for another shot but you don't just give him first line minutes--he's got to work his way to the point where he earns first line minutes to get them.

I like Boo. I think given time if he can stay away from more concussions he will be an NHL player but IMO he'll be a bottom 6 and more than likely a 4th line C. He just doesn't have enough offensive creativity to really hope for much more than that.

 

[egelband]

How many concussions now? Do we know? I truly hate concussions.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

pre concussion, he had a brief stint here.
Did nothing w/4th liners.
Then had I think Zuc + Buch, and got good results.
Then, that stupid idiot AV had him shipped out in favor of a vet.

Those results prove he can cut it here.

1st line, I agree is something else.
But I am not saying he is on the order of Howden let alone Zib.

All I am saying is on paper, he has the size and speed to hang with Kreider. Kreider IS the 1LW on this team. His pivot IS the 1C, that's where you get the 1C designation.
CK is more of the offense catalyst both as to tip ins and creating space, and both he and Boo benefit from a complementary high end RW yet to be determined.

But Nieves is big, strong, would contribute to setting up the wings who would drive and finish the plays. He has adequate/+ passing skills. I don't see stone hands. I don't say he is the other end, smooth as silk mitts, either. I see he has adequate minimally necessary, not pretty, but enough to get the job done. Again, he was adequate to pivot Zuc + Buch previously, he can probably do that also with Kreids and a RW counterpart, since he has the speed.

Acceptably responsible defensively. Not the second coming of Jan Erixon. Just enough to handle his own assignment and not make more distraction for his Ws.

Acceptable face off results, would improve with more shifts if he were 1C.

-----
not one isolated shift or similar underuse.
give a legit shot to get familiar with Kreider, see if there's chemistry
worst that could happen is what appears might be the case is not
best case scenario, I'm right

Between the concussion and the emergence of Howden/projection of Kratsov, Nieves as 1C, even if it worked, would be short lived.

But there is ZERO reason to not even try for the stop gap.

Boo had 9 points in 28 games last year. 3 of which came in 1 game. How is that "proven results"?

 

[bernmeister]

Nieves is not one of our best 12 forwards. He's not even one of our best 4 centers. That's why he's in Hartford or one of the reasons why. It wasn't lucky for him to get injured in the first game of preseason and sometimes you need luck. He needs to play well in Hartford and work for another shot but you don't just give him first line minutes--he's got to work his way to the point where he earns first line minutes to get them.

I like Boo. I think given time if he can stay away from more concussions he will be an NHL player but IMO he'll be a bottom 6 and more than likely a 4th line C. He just doesn't have enough offensive creativity to really hope for much more than that.

We are more in consensus then you think.
The only thing your analysis overlooks, the one thing I insist on, is Nieves be given a legit amount of time to test with Kreider to seek if my theory is plausible.

That door has almost fully closed atm, however, if we move Zib + for nice profit [Sens 4th, avoid NMC clause] and trade something like LA + Zuc to Van for Quintin Hughes + cap dump Dorsett, that door may swing open again.

Here is what I ask you to recognize:

while not commonplace, we have seen, in baseball for example, .240 hitters who are not spectacular, but they own an All Star pitcher w/a .750 batting clip. Not everybody, just him and maybe 1 or 2 others.

One yr the St. Louis Browns assembled a club of average joes, many cast offs if I'm not mistaken, who were a shade over ordinary vs the rest of the league, but went lights out vs the Yankees, and won the pennant.

I'm not saying that is a strategy to be regularly copied.
Only that it is real that Kreider is here, and that opportunity should not be ignored and dismissed without a legit try.

Nieves has NOT earned a shot at 1C.
He does not need to.
He needs to only demonstrate that w/Kreider making a wholehearted effort, there is or is not chemistry.
That's it, end of story.
If there is, since Kreider is established as our 1W and that is not changing, technically, Boo becomes the 1C, but I am not campaigning for that, just the experiment to pair with Kreider.

Chemistry is a funny thing.
I am not saying there is a guarantee of success.
But I am saying that unlike slower guys who would also be seeking more to drive the play, and are not defensively responsible or good on draws, Nieves checks those boxes with speed, good support to Kreider + a finisher on offensive, and holding up his end, and on paper seems complementary.

Emergence of Howden and expectations for Kratsov anticipate even if the experiment works, it will be short lived, b'c those guys would be even better than Boo. But there is no reason to not stopgap while Howden matures and Kratsov gets here.

 

[nyr2k2]

How many concussions now? Do we know? I truly hate concussions.

IIRC he had two in the AHL and at least one bad one in college, but I really think he had two. So somewhere between 3 and 5 that I'm pretty sure of.