NHL to Vegas part V: Well? We're waiting! (for the NFL?)
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powerstuck
Nordiques Hopes Lies
Seems like NHL urges potential markets to quickly build their arenas, then they force them to test run those arenas anywhere from 3 to 5 years before they get a chance at a team...and then 10 years later, they have team owners cry out loud their arena is outdated and not competitive.
It's nice having a brand new car, but it's less nice when you store that brand new car for the first 5 years, then once the warranty is expired...you start driving it daily and start complaining about how a bad car it is.
Edit :
Honestly, what would be really nice is for NBA to go and either move or expand a franchise into Vegas, and pull the rug on which NHL is standing and claiming they are the first pro-sports league to step into this amazing market.
It's nice having a brand new car, but it's less nice when you store that brand new car for the first 5 years, then once the warranty is expired...you start driving it daily and start complaining about how a bad car it is.
Edit :
Honestly, what would be really nice is for NBA to go and either move or expand a franchise into Vegas, and pull the rug on which NHL is standing and claiming they are the first pro-sports league to step into this amazing market.
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Llama19
Registered User
If the NBA did that, it would be amazing, further reinforcing the view of the NHL as 'bush' league in 'awarding' franchises...
powerstuck
Nordiques Hopes Lies
Would bring joy to more than one person that's for sure. Just to show Gary that no it is not okay to show up in a city, tell how lovely the people are, how great it would be for NHL to be there and then while skating on thin ice push further and further away the date something official happens with that speech of his.
Lets be honest, NHL now confirming there won't be a vote in December and nothing will likely happen before 2017-18 if not later...do they really expect Foley to magically keep all those 13k+ commitments intact ???? Like really ?
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
I'm not yet willing to cut off my nose to spite my face, just somewhat impatiently waiting. I've always had hope for a hockey team here, and I really hoped we'd be a San Jose situation (prior to the 49ers) where hockey would be king. I figure it was a few more years down the road, but they stirred something inside of me and tens of thousands of other people with the ticket drive.
As a city, we've been down the road of teams moving here. From the Expos to the Vikings and even Jerry Bruckheimer's Penguins. We can deal with rumors, get a little excited and then let it go when Lucy pulls the football away from us. This was different, this was real.
I don't mean to refer to it in the past tense, but it seems appropriate at this juncture.
That being said, when you take the timeline and all the other things I mentioned in the last few pages of the last Vegas thread, something is definitely happening. Foley moved Fidelity National's headquarters here (or at least half of it). The building is purchased, the executives have their offices in Summerlin. That is done.
The hockey team has office space in a Summerlin office building. I thought it could have been a preemptive move and they were setting the team up in office space that could be used by Fidelity National if things didn't pan out. That's no longer the case now that Fidelity owns a building a few miles down the road. Foley is bought in to Vegas. The executives with Fidelity have moved to Vegas.
I'm not saying Vegas isn't a great place to live, but that seems like overkill if you don't know there's a team coming.
He's spending millions on the locker room at the MGM Arena. Something else that isn't done on a whim. This isn't the city of Las Vegas putting up an arena in hopes of luring a team like QC. This arena is built and profitable without the team. Why spend the money if you don't know there's going to be a team?
As far as the relocation scenario I put forth in the aforementioned thread and the bad juju that comes with a relocation; we're going to get that anyways. Certainly from Canadians and almost assuredly from a good portion of other fans. What's the issue with getting a little more from Phoenix if it happens? It's just not a concern for me anymore. Like I said, I hate to see someone lose their team, but almost every single scenario that can play out in Phoenix ends with the Coyotes leaving, they might as well move somewhere at least somewhat accessible for the 20% of Coyotes fans that will maintain their relationship with the team regardless of where it moves.
powerstuck
Nordiques Hopes Lies
I understand what you are saying and I wish I had the tools to keep my confidence up as you do it.
But look at it the other way. Foley has an arena. It's built and paid for. What can he do other than manage it the best he can and get as much events as he can to get some profits in.
You don't build an arena to leave it standing still waiting for NHL.
Another thing that struck me now that you talked about it...in Quebec, NHL locker rooms aren't finished, Remparts coach has his office inside what is supposed to be the official X-Ray room in the arena. Now that I think about it, I can't help but ask myself why.
But look at it the other way. Foley has an arena. It's built and paid for. What can he do other than manage it the best he can and get as much events as he can to get some profits in.
You don't build an arena to leave it standing still waiting for NHL.
Another thing that struck me now that you talked about it...in Quebec, NHL locker rooms aren't finished, Remparts coach has his office inside what is supposed to be the official X-Ray room in the arena. Now that I think about it, I can't help but ask myself why.
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
That's the thing. Foley's only business with the arena comes from the hockey team. He's not an owner or partial owner of the arena. He's got a locker room and some input, but it is 100% MGM and AEG's arena. He doesn't manage it, never will. Makes it even harder to think he doesn't know something that isn't for public consumption.
Further, unless he picks up an AHL team if the whole NHL thing falls out the money being put into the arena is all for naught. Even that assumes him picking up an AHL team as an independent sports mogul would be possible.
Mightygoose
Registered User
The longer delays occur, the more I'm thinking along the lines of your relo scenario (you can have the patent
)My understanding is (per the LV Journal yesterday), that the agenda for the BoG meetings are set a week prior. So how can they know so soon that they're not ready to vote?
I still think there are 2 tracks being looked at with existing franchises which I mentioned in the QC thread earlier.
#1) AZ - If they can secure a new home post '17 then they're good and expansion to Vegas gets the go. If AZ does not find a new home in the region, a new home somewhere else has now been vetted.
#2) FLA - If Broward County formally approved the new financial package then QC can be good to give the OK (depends on #1). If Broward says no, then a fallback plan has been vetted too.
IMO, both issues are not expected to be resolved one way or another in time for the Dec meetings, hence an expansion vote wont' be on the agenda. May be different for the Jan 30 gathering....time will tell.
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
My real issue with all of that is that everyone knew those issues wouldn't be resolved anytime soon when the Vegas ticket drive was announced. They certainly weren't going to get resolved when they go ahead was given for the ticket drive to start. Same for phase 1/2/3 of expansion.
Why the kabuki?
I do have an answer in my head, but I'm just curious what others think.
Why the kabuki?
I do have an answer in my head, but I'm just curious what others think.
Llama19
Registered User
Mightygoose
Registered User
Why the Kabuki? I like that question and it should be amended in the thread title
My thought is the league didn't see the Glendale meltdown happening, it's fate could have been dealt with in 2018 and other options can open up by then.
The Vegas ticket drive started 4 months beforehand and of course planned longer than that which I think they we're moving ahead with this 'formal process', anyways and keep the 'no timeframe' message going so they can change on a dime if they need too.
Once the new 2 year lease was done, the league was already down the path of the three phases and here we are.
Just my thoughts....as of today.
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
Okay, we're on the same page.
I think this thing started making the move from expansion to relocation as soon as the Glendale thing happened. They've got outs now. I did a pretty cursory breakdown of the difference to the individual teams/governors using an expansion versus relocation scenario on one of the last pages of the last thread.
Assuming my information and analysis are somewhat sound, it makes more sense monetarily to move a team like the Coyotes after 1-2 years versus taking a one time payment for expansion.
I think this thing started making the move from expansion to relocation as soon as the Glendale thing happened. They've got outs now. I did a pretty cursory breakdown of the difference to the individual teams/governors using an expansion versus relocation scenario on one of the last pages of the last thread.
Assuming my information and analysis are somewhat sound, it makes more sense monetarily to move a team like the Coyotes after 1-2 years versus taking a one time payment for expansion.
Llama19
Registered User
As much as people talk about 'losing' expansion money, it's still money, and solves another problem at the same time...
The league always had other options for the coyotes than vegas. Portland and Seattle (once their arena gets taken care off)
They still get their 500m in expansion while addressing the coyotes.
Llama19
Registered User
That's been the problem with these other locations, not being able to 'takeoff'...
LeBluster has been taxiing down the runway since arriving and is about to go into the ditch...
tony d
New poll series coming from me on June 3
Las Vegas getting the NBA makes more sense to me than the NHL getting it, still don't buy Vegas as a NHL market at all.
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
True enough, there wasn't an immediate need for other options though. There appears to be a need in the short term today. I just see this whole thing as a way to inflate/support higher franchise values. Everyone thought Bettman had bumped his head when he said the fee would start with a five.
I don't imagine people will think he's too off on that figure if the Coyotes are valued at $500MM to get to LV or QC. It would certainly put the league even more in the drivers seat when it comes to the eventual expansion, which I think is still on the table.
As I've repeated a ton of times over the past months, the Province said the plan was Seattle, Toronto, Vegas, Quebec City. I still think that's the case.
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
Should have multi responded, my fault.
The excitement here was really something to see when this all came out, it really got me feeling good about the prospects. I'm not a huge Vegas sunshine pumper, this isn't a slam dunk market for hockey. It is a lot stronger than many would expect though based on the data that's out there and I've shared in previous iterations of the Vegas thread. We can go back into it if there's an appetite for regurgitated info.
I actually think hockey would do better than basketball here, but that's just a personal opinion based on what I know about the city and the response I've seen. Plus, the NBA has got some bigger fish to fry in Seattle and perhaps Montreal. There's even some similarly sized fish in Virginia and Kentucky they may want to approach as well.
MGM isn't super interested in basketball from what I've seen, and until there's another arena in town (and there is at least one "in the works") I don't see the NBA putting a claim on Vegas. That is 100% okay with me in general and specifically as it relates to the potential hockey team.
NBA isn't interested in Vegas after they had the all star game there. Vegas has better shot at getting NHL than they do getting a NBA team.
Should have multi responded, my fault.
The excitement here was really something to see when this all came out, it really got me feeling good about the prospects. I'm not a huge Vegas sunshine pumper, this isn't a slam dunk market for hockey. It is a lot stronger than many would expect though based on the data that's out there and I've shared in previous iterations of the Vegas thread. We can go back into it if there's an appetite for regurgitated info.
I actually think hockey would do better than basketball here, but that's just a personal opinion based on what I know about the city and the response I've seen. Plus, the NBA has got some bigger fish to fry in Seattle and perhaps Montreal. There's even some similarly sized fish in Virginia and Kentucky they may want to approach as well.
MGM isn't super interested in basketball from what I've seen, and until there's another arena in town (and there is at least one "in the works") I don't see the NBA putting a claim on Vegas. That is 100% okay with me in general and specifically as it relates to the potential hockey team.
There were some problem at Vegas when the NBA played their all star game there to where NBA wasn't happy with.
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
It was actually the opposite. The NBA wasn't happy with the arena, which was to be expected out of a thirty year old arena and would be remedied by the new arena. However, they were complimentary about the city and experience.
MGM (and the city in general, for that matter) wasn't happy with the NBA clientele and the issues associated with that. Since this arena, and by extension the team that plays within the arena, is essentially a way for MGM Resorts to funnel people into their properties, they are pretty sour on the idea of an NBA team in Vegas. The CEO of MGM Resorts has not made that a secret.
Even that who would be willing to pay at least a billion or more for an NBA expansion team in Vegas? 500m is questionable enough for a NHL team but a billion on a for a NBA in a market that is a complete gamble (pun not intended)
NHL is going not going to get very a lot out of the coyotes going to vegas for an relocation fee. Most of that $$$ for that sale would go to the owners very little to the league. Vegas is not a superior market to phoenix (no offense to vegas folks).
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
Three ways I look at it, in order of likeliness in my head.
A.) Foley (or perhaps Quebecor) has already got a portion of the Coyotes or an option on the Coyotes that kicks in once some unnamed to us event or date occurs. The New York Post article of June was true and Foley actually has an agreement. Everything happening now is kabuki (why am I using that word so much today?) to mitigate a portion of the loses from a lame duck season in a place where the franchise is already hemorrhaging money and the current owners want to maintain whatever agreement is in place to ensure they're whole when it all goes down. A half a season of "normalish" attendance and revenue is much better than announcing in June and having a full lame duck.
B.) The Coyotes are still owned IA and are making a real last ditch effort to keep the franchise alive in Arizona knowing that their hand will soon be forced once the availability of money dries up and they're powerless against what has to happen next and will likely leave many of them less than whole.
C.) The NHL is really dedicated to Phoenix and will allow and support as much money as required to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix.
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
I've gone into this in the last thread. The breakeven point for relocating the Coyotes versus an expansion fee occurs about a year and a half after the team is sold based on what I've figured. I can link if you'd like.
Vegas may not be a superior market to Phoenix on the surface, but the NHL would own 100% of a two million person metro instead of a quarter (at most) of a four million person metro. Also, Vegas interest in hockey based on TV viewership already eclipses Phoenix without a team in the Las Vegas Valley, so it's a solid foundation upon which to build.
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