NHL Realignment 2012-13 – Part III

[Pinkfloyd]

Move Nashville to SE, Dallas to the Central, Colorado to Pacific and Winnipeg to the NW, end of story, I don't want the 4 conferences.

They won't let Minnesota be the only American team in their division.

 

[Grudy0]

Ugh. So concerned w/ stepping on the toes of the fans in Phoenix. W/ the Coyotes not likely to find an owner in time, they very likely will move, and it will affect realignment for next year. So how is it not in line w/ the topic in place? Absolutely stupid to ignore that probability.

I don't think it has anything to do with worrying about the Coyotes' fans.

The League wants to hold a vote of 5 December regarding realignment. A move of the Coyotes franchise may not have any effect on realignment for 2012-13. We know that there are two interested suitors for the Coyotes, but the wild card is working out a suitable deal with the City of Glendale.

So unless the League decides that it is likely the Coyotes will move, it would have to be business as usual, including voting on a realignment proposal on 5 December. Therefore, if realignment isn't tabled, the assumption is the League is at least holding out hope to keep the Coyotes somewhere in the West. If realignment is tabled on 5 December, it would have to be because the League knows the Coyotes are moving east.

 

[knorthern knight]

So unless the League decides that it is likely the Coyotes will move, it would have to be business as usual, including voting on a realignment proposal on 5 December. Therefore, if realignment isn't tabled, the assumption is the League is at least holding out hope to keep the Coyotes somewhere in the West. If realignment is tabled on 5 December, it would have to be because the League knows the Coyotes are moving east.

Since the schedule-making process starts in January, the BOG needs to to know what the alignment is going to be like by then. That means that Phoenix's fate will also need to be known. If you wait until later, you might be able to make minor changes, but it's ugly. 2 cases in point...

• Winnipeg Jets 1.0 played an extra season in Winnipeg, because it was too late to change the schedule to play in Phoenix by the time their fate was sealed
• Winnipeg Jets 2.0 play in Atlanta's spot in the Southeast this season, because their move was late.

If the NHL sets up a schedule based on Coyotes being in Phoenix, and they're sold to PKP in Quebec in the spring, the best you can expect is that Les Nordiques will play in Phoenix's western slot for one season.

 

[Grudy0]

Since the schedule-making process starts in January, the BOG needs to to know what the alignment is going to be like by then. That means that Phoenix's fate will also need to be known. If you wait until later, you might be able to make minor changes, but it's ugly. 2 cases in point...

• Winnipeg Jets 1.0 played an extra season in Winnipeg, because it was too late to change the schedule to play in Phoenix by the time their fate was sealed
• Winnipeg Jets 2.0 play in Atlanta's spot in the Southeast this season, because their move was late.

If the NHL sets up a schedule based on Coyotes being in Phoenix, and they're sold to PKP in Quebec in the spring, the best you can expect is that Les Nordiques will play in Phoenix's western slot for one season.

I was under the impression that the 1995 season had started before the Jets v 1.0 was sold to Colangelo et al.

Either way, the Nordiques were sold to Comsat in June of 1995 and the League was still able to hold a realignment vote and schedule adjustment to put the team into the Western Conference in time for the following season.

My opinion:
1) for those stuck on the fact that the Coyotes are pretty much portable, it only boils down to two scenarios:

• If the NHL plans to sell to PK Peladeau and move the team to Quebec, there is no real reason to realign at this time.
• If the NHL doesn't plan to sell to PKP, and believes they can place the team West of the Mississippi or even continue on in Glendale, then realignment can continue.

2) there are still issues with what some teams may have been promised in a realignment scenario, including those teams that have legitimate gripes with their current TV start times for away games. It's simply going to be crazy to get to a point that a super-majority of the teams can live with.

In essence, the only reason to worry about a realignment scenario with a relocated team moving into the Eastern Time Zone is if the NHL decides not to realign next year. If we hear of a delay in the realignment proceedings, we know what the real problem is.

 

[Mighty Joe Moon]

Since the schedule-making process starts in January, the BOG needs to to know what the alignment is going to be like by then. That means that Phoenix's fate will also need to be known. If you wait until later, you might be able to make minor changes, but it's ugly. 2 cases in point...

• Winnipeg Jets 1.0 played an extra season in Winnipeg, because it was too late to change the schedule to play in Phoenix by the time their fate was sealed
• Winnipeg Jets 2.0 play in Atlanta's spot in the Southeast this season, because their move was late.

If the NHL sets up a schedule based on Coyotes being in Phoenix, and they're sold to PKP in Quebec in the spring, the best you can expect is that Les Nordiques will play in Phoenix's western slot for one season.

The Jets played an extra season in Winnipeg because there was a last ditch rally by a local ownership group to keep the team, which in turn screwed Richard Burke and Steven Gluckstern's plans to move the team to Minnesota. The team was never originally intended to go to Phoenix. The schedule had NOTHING to do with it.

Anyway, pardon my interruption here.

 

[knorthern knight]

The Jets played an extra season in Winnipeg because there was a last ditch rally by a local ownership group to keep the team, which in turn screwed Richard Burke and Steven Gluckstern's plans to move the team to Minnesota. The team was never originally intended to go to Phoenix. The schedule had NOTHING to do with it.

I sit corrected

 

[Jeffrey93]

NJD is even closer to PHI than NYR/NYI. Why would you split them from the NY area teams? Can't even look at the rest of it, because that is so glaring.

Something has to give there....

You can't split NYI & NYR. You can't split PIT & PHI.

If you keep NYI, NYR, NJD together then add who? BUF & BOS to make it the New England/York division? Then BOS/BUF are taken from MTL & TOR.

There is no "nice" way to do it. You either have to go PURELY geographical....or go PURELY on history/rivalry and use geography as a back-up for teams with little history & rivalry.

For all we know the Islanders are gone in 2015 anyway....so the Devils could slide into their spot.

Assuming PHX stays put (HUGE assumption)....

Until the NHL expands to two more markets I think the 4 division idea is on the back burner.


Just went over it....can't be done. Time zones screw up too many things to keep all rivalries together and keep divisions as close as possible. Gotta bust up some rivalries and even defy some small geographic issues.

A big NY area team....or Flyers/Pens...or Bruins/Habs...or somebody is going to get broken up.

So the Devils aren't in the same division as the Rangers.....the Cubs aren't in the same league as the Sox. They seem to deal with it alright....

 

[Jeffrey93]

Since the schedule-making process starts in January, the BOG needs to to know what the alignment is going to be like by then. That means that Phoenix's fate will also need to be known. If you wait until later, you might be able to make minor changes, but it's ugly. 2 cases in point...

• Winnipeg Jets 1.0 played an extra season in Winnipeg, because it was too late to change the schedule to play in Phoenix by the time their fate was sealed
• Winnipeg Jets 2.0 play in Atlanta's spot in the Southeast this season, because their move was late.

If the NHL sets up a schedule based on Coyotes being in Phoenix, and they're sold to PKP in Quebec in the spring, the best you can expect is that Les Nordiques will play in Phoenix's western slot for one season.

A tad different when the league owns the team. They decide, absolutely, if they stay in Phoenix or not. They decide on realignment.

One is going to get brought up with the other. I'd expect the BOG to even discuss a current realignment and how another very soon realignment would play out.

I don't think teams want to just know how they realign because of ATL/WPG....they want to know what happens to what they agree on when/if PHX moves.

Which makes me wonder....would some Owners be willing to keep PHX in the NHL's hands just to stay in the division they want to be in???

Realignment happened...not often..but it wasn't unheard of, before. It has just been a while. It's no big deal. Takes some thought and compromise....but Owners know it could change again before long.

 

[AlexanderTheGood]

1) Move Nashville to the Southeast.

Southeast Division:

Carolina
Florida
Nashville
Tampa Bay
Washington

2) Move Vancouver to the Pacific.

Pacific Division:

Anaheim
Los Angeles
Phoenix
San Jose
Vancouver

3) Move Dallas to the Central Division.

Central Division:

Chicago
Columbus
Dallas
Detroit
St. Louis

4) Move Winnipeg to the Northwest Division.

Northwest Division:

Calgary
Colorado
Edmonton
Minnesota
Winnipeg

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

Some confirmation Edmonton wants 4 divisions....

http://www.faceoff.com/hockey/teams/edmonton-oilers/Western+conference/5665262/story.html

Time zones matter

If the Oilers had their druthers, they would rather be in a fourdivisional realignment with Pacific zone teams than Central for TV purposes. A division with the Calgary Flames, Vancouver Canucks, Los Angeles Kings, Anaheim Ducks, San Jose Sharks, Phoenix Coyotes and Colorado Avalanche would be more attractive than having the Minnesota Wild and Chicago Blackhawks.

"We want to be in our time zone as much as possible, and the Pacific teams would still give us a better (read prime-time) TV audience," said LaForge.

 

[MoreOrr]

Some confirmation Edmonton wants 4 divisions....

http://www.faceoff.com/hockey/teams/edmonton-oilers/Western+conference/5665262/story.html

Time zones matter

If the Oilers had their druthers, they would rather be in a fourdivisional realignment with Pacific zone teams than Central for TV purposes. A division with the Calgary Flames, Vancouver Canucks, Los Angeles Kings, Anaheim Ducks, San Jose Sharks, Phoenix Coyotes and Colorado Avalanche would be more attractive than having the Minnesota Wild and Chicago Blackhawks.

"We want to be in our time zone as much as possible, and the Pacific teams would still give us a better (read prime-time) TV audience," said LaForge.

So let's analyze that just a bt... If playing against the PTZ is better for MTZ teams than it is playing against CTZ teams, then would that be the exact same situation for PTZ teams. You would think then that the PTZ teams would rather Not be in a Division with the MTZ teams, because all of those games would start an hour too early.
I already said, I wouldn't be too sure that all of the California teams would be too keen on Bettman's alignment. If they can get Dallas out of the Division in exchange for Vancouver or Colorado then the Pacific Division should be fairly content with that. And one of those options is likely to happen with a 6-Division setup.

 

[NeutralZone]

So let's analyze that just a bt... If playing against the PTZ is better for MTZ teams than it is playing against CTZ teams, then would that be the exact same situation for PTZ teams. You would think then that the PTZ teams would rather Not be in a Division with the MTZ teams, because all of those games would start an hour too early.
I already said, I wouldn't be too sure that all of the California teams would be too keen on Bettman's alignment. If they can get Dallas out of the Division in exchange for Vancouver or Colorado then the Pacific Division should be fairly content with that. And one of those options is likely to happen with a 6-Division setup.

It's not like there's a time zone west of the pacific for the pacific teams to play against. By simple geography they are going to have to play teams in earlier time zones, unless they massively increase intra-divisional games. Mountain time is better than central or eastern.

If Nashville went to the southeast and Winnipeg into the central and everything else stayed the same, LA for example would play:
11 away in pacific time zone
6 away in mountain time zone
11.6 away in central time zone
12.4 away in eastern time zone

Under Betteman's proposal*:
11.5 away in pacific time zone
7.5 away in mountain time zone
6 away in central time zone
16 away in eastern time zone

I think that's a bit of a wash for the pacific teams. They get more travel to the east coast, but at least their fans get to see those teams more often. They get more travel to the pacific and mountain time zones, which is good, and they get less travel to the central which is also good. The average time zone difference remains about the same. Would they be pushing for the proposal? Maybe not. But I think they'd vote for it under pressure from Betteman. The extra home games against big name eastern teams would probably tip the balance.

*Its not clear exactly how the intra-group games would be divided up for 8 team groups, so the number for pacific and mountain time games might be slightly off.

 

[MoreOrr]

It's not like there's a time zone west of the pacific for the pacific teams to play against. By simple geography they are going to have to play teams in earlier time zones, unless they massively increase intra-divisional games. Mountain time is better than central or eastern.

Of course, but if Edmonton considers it as an issue to be in Division with CTZ teams, then wouldn't the PTZ teams also consider it to be an issue to add more MTZ teams to their Division?

 

[NeutralZone]

Of course, but if Edmonton considers it as an issue to be in Division with CTZ teams, then wouldn't the PTZ teams also consider it to be an issue to add more MTZ teams to their Division?

Well, they'd be adding 1 pacific team and losing a central team in exchange for adding the 3 mountain teams, so it's not as clear cut as your making it out to be. And you can't forget they are also loosing a whole bunch of conference games against the central time zone. The pacific time teams have to play their games against somebody, and they'd rather play mountain time zone teams than central or especially eastern time teams. As I said, unless they go up to 8 or 10 intra-divisional games a year, there's really no way the pacific teams can get around the fact that they have to travel outside their time zone. All they can hope for is to lessen the impact.

 

[MoreOrr]

Well, they'd be adding 1 pacific team and losing a central team in exchange for adding the 3 mountain teams, so it's not as clear cut as your making it out to be. And you can't forget they are also loosing a whole bunch of conference games against the central time zone. The pacific time teams have to play their games against somebody, and they'd rather play mountain time zone teams than central or especially eastern time teams. As I said, unless they go up to 8 or 10 intra-divisional games a year, there's really no way the pacific teams can get around the fact that they have to travel outside their time zone. All they can hope for is to lessen the impact.

But that's almost certain to happen with 6 Divisions, Dallas gets replaced by either Vancouver or Colorado... I said that in the first response above.

 

[NeutralZone]

But that's almost certain to happen with 6 Divisions, Dallas gets replaced by either Vancouver or Colorado... I said that in the first response above.

It's certainly possible that Dallas would go to the central in a 6 division realignment, but I don't think it's certain. There seems to be resistance to splitting vancouver up from Edmonton and Calgary, and there's also resistance to leaving Colorado or Minnesota as the only American team in the Northwest. A more modest realignment is possible, and even seemed likely a month ago when Winnipeg swapping with Detroit was the frontrunner.

At the end of the day, none of the proposed realignments is a massive change for the pacific teams in the regular season. I don't think the vote will come down to convincing them. Betteman's proposal is okay for the pacific teams, good for the mountain, great for the central (and Detroit/Columbus), and not so great for the east. I think it will come down to whether or not Betteman can convince the eastern teams that it's more fair and better for the league, and get them to accept the increased travel and rivalry splits (no matter how you divide up the east, something has to be split).

 

[MoreOrr]

At the end of the day, none of the proposed realignments is a massive change for the pacific teams in the regular season. I don't think the vote will come down to convincing them. Betteman's proposal is okay for the pacific teams, good for the mountain, great for the central (and Detroit/Columbus), and not so great for the east. I think it will come down to whether or not Betteman can convince the eastern teams that it's more fair and better for the league, and get them to accept the increased travel and rivalry splits (no matter how you divide up the east, something has to be split).

I'm just saying that if the California teams see significant resistance by a number of teams (mostly northeastern teams likely), then they might just say... 'Hey there's resistance to this and ultimately we're fine with 6 Divisions, so why not look to see if we (the League) can make something work there.' As you say, I don't think going to 4 Divisions is a big push for the California teams.

 

[Grudy0]

Let's add the starting point from today.

The Kings play this year:

8 away in pacific time zone (SJ ANA x3, VAN x2)
9 away in mountain time zone (CGY EDM COL x2, PHX x3)
12 away in central time zone (DAL x3, MIN CHI STL NSH x2, WPG x1)
12 away in eastern time zone (9 EC opponents, CLB DET x2)

So to correct some numbers, mainly because I believe that Phoenix is incorrectly listed as a Pacific Time Zone team:

If Nashville went to the southeast and Winnipeg into the central and everything else stayed the same, LA for example would play:
8 away in pacific time zone
9 away in mountain time zone
11 or 12 away in central time zone
13 or 12 away in eastern time zone

And that whole assumption is based upon whether or not the Kings would play at Nashville or not during their cycle of Eastern Conference games. Also correcting:

Under Bettman's proposal*:
6 away in central time zone
16 away in eastern time zone
19 divisional games against 3 Pacific Time Zone and 4 Mountain Time Zone teams

And under the current schedule, they have 17 away games against PTZ and MTZ teams.

I think that's a bit of a wash for the pacific teams. They get more travel to the east coast, but at least their fans get to see those teams more often. They get more travel to the pacific and mountain time zones, which is good, and they get less travel to the central which is also good. The average time zone difference remains about the same. Would they be pushing for the proposal? Maybe not. But I think they'd vote for it under pressure from Betteman. The extra home games against big name eastern teams would probably tip the balance.

My concern is continually regarding the home-and-home against out-of-division foes. The Bettman proposal with the home-and-home, playing all teams out-of-division twice really kills any benefits for the "MTZ/PTZ" division. It doesn't help out TV start times much at all.

And this is a good part of the reason that many of the Eastern Conference teams are pretty dead against a change. With either Detroit or Columbus moving into the Eastern Conference, the current matrix would still have 3 away games against four divisional opponents, two away games against 10 conference opponents, and 9 away games against the other conference. That means using the current matrix the Eastern Conference teams would play at least 73 of their 82 games in the Eastern Time Zone. And I have a hard time believing Eastern Conference teams would willingly change that.

By increasing the out-of-conference games from 18 to 30, games against teams outside the division but within the conference decrease. For teams in the Eastern Conference, that could be a bit of a problem.

I'm now thinking that if a four-division setup is accepted, it still may only be under the guise that the status quo of 18 games would be scheduled against the other conference.

 

[RandR]

By increasing the out-of-conference games from 18 to 30, games against teams outside the division but within the conference decrease. For teams in the Eastern Conference, that could be a bit of a problem.

I'm now thinking that if a four-division setup is accepted, it still may only be under the guise that the status quo of 18 games would be scheduled against the other conference.

I think that the primary motivation to scheduling 2 games against each team from the other conference is that it allows season tickets holders in particular to have a chance to see all of the top teams and stars every year instead of every other year. For teams that sell out every game anyway, that may not matter much but I think having every team visit at least once would be attractive to any franchise, East or West, that is having a tough time selling season tickets and multi-game packs. Even for casual fans watching games on network TV I think it is a shame that Vancouver doesn't get to host Boston this year and that none of Boston, Montreal or Toronto get to host the Hawks, an original 6 rival and the Stanley Cup champions from 2 years ago.

 

[NeutralZone]

My concern is continually regarding the home-and-home against out-of-division foes. The Bettman proposal with the home-and-home, playing all teams out-of-division twice really kills any benefits for the "MTZ/PTZ" division. It doesn't help out TV start times much at all.

And this is a good part of the reason that many of the Eastern Conference teams are pretty dead against a change. With either Detroit or Columbus moving into the Eastern Conference, the current matrix would still have 3 away games against four divisional opponents, two away games against 10 conference opponents, and 9 away games against the other conference. That means using the current matrix the Eastern Conference teams would play at least 73 of their 82 games in the Eastern Time Zone. And I have a hard time believing Eastern Conference teams would willingly change that.

By increasing the out-of-conference games from 18 to 30, games against teams outside the division but within the conference decrease. For teams in the Eastern Conference, that could be a bit of a problem.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake with Phoenix. It's in mountain time, and I was counting it as pacific. However, I don't think that effects the big picture much.

Geography favours the eastern teams, but the 2 conference system reinforces that bias. The 2 away games within the conference are great for the eastern teams, because they are all in the same time zone and typically not too far to travel. For the west however they are not nearly as good. They are usually outside of the time zone, sometimes 3 time zones away, and usually involve lots of travel.

I think Betteman wants to replace the 2 conference system with something that is more fair. But more fair means worse for the eastern teams, making them shoulder a larger share of the travel load and time zone issues. It's a tough sell, but even under his proposal I don't think they would exactly be suffering in terms of travel, considering what the west has to put up with. I wouldn't expect the owners of those teams to be eager to put fairness before their own interests though.

 

[RandR]

So to correct some numbers, mainly because I believe that Phoenix is incorrectly listed as a Pacific Time Zone team

Thanks for pointing out my mistake with Phoenix. It's in mountain time, and I was counting it as pacific.

To be precise, Phoenix is indeed in Mountain Time Zone but until this weekend was on the same time as the west coast because they don't use daylight savings time. This makes them like a Pacific Time Zone team in terms of TV and travel for the early and late parts of the NHL season.

 

[RandR]

A brief update from Elliotte Friedman today on the 4-division proposal aired on CBC about 10 days ago:

Blues smart to hire Hitchcock + 30 Thoughts

7. One week after the Hotstove report on re-alignment, some interesting fallout. Had one GM, basically, say I'm on crack, that this will never happen. Other sources say they think the Pittsburgh/Philadelphia problem is being worked out and will be solved. What's clear is that some teams are fighting this very hard.

And a comment from a writer at Rogers Sportnet:

The Hitchcock approach

With realignment supposed to be the most salient topic when the NHL's Board of Governors meet at Pebble Beach Dec. 5-6, there is only one problem: What about Phoenix?

You can't do a full realignment until you know where the Coyotes are going to be next season, but we're not sure the league is ready to announce it has pulled the plug on Phoenix in the first week of December.

I disagree, and I think this is one reason why 4 divisions works out much better than the current 6 divisions ... it is far more flexible in handling an evolving situation like Phoenix. The current proposal is that Phoenix would be put into a 8-team Pacific Division. That means that there is at least a 75% chance that even if they did relocate after this season, then they can logically either stay in the Pacific division or get added to one of the two 7-team divisions. The only problem would be if they relocated to a city that would geographically belong in the 8-team Phi-Was-NYR-NYI-NJ-Car-TB-Fla division, but none of the potential sites (Quebec, Kansas City, etc.) is in that part of the continent anyway.

 

[saskriders]

I expect to get a lot of backlash for this, but I think it would be better for the divisions to be divided more by North South than timezone. It would equal out travel more, keep more rivalries, and the league would make more money (do you expect people in Edmonton would be more likely to see Chicago, or Phoenix) keep northern teams playing against northern teams for the most money

 

[saskriders]

I expect to get a lot of backlash for this, but I think it would be better for the divisions to be divided more by North South than timezone. It would equal out travel more, keep more rivalries, and the league would make more money (do you expect people in Edmonton would be more likely to see Chicago, or Phoenix) keep northern teams playing against northern teams for the most money

NW: Van, Cgy, Edm, Wpg, Min, Chi, Col, Det
NE: Mtl, Ott, Tor, Buf, Bos, Pit, Phl, Wsh
SW: LA, Ana, SJ, Phx, Dal, Col, Stl
SE: Flo, TB, NYR, NYI, NJ, Car, Nsh

Sorry for the double post btw

 

[Grudy0]

A brief update from Elliotte Friedman today on the 4-division proposal aired on CBC about 10 days ago:

Blues smart to hire Hitchcock + 30 Thoughts

7. One week after the Hotstove report on re-alignment, some interesting fallout. Had one GM, basically, say I'm on crack, that this will never happen. Other sources say they think the Pittsburgh/Philadelphia problem is being worked out and will be solved. What's clear is that some teams are fighting this very hard.

Of course they're fighting hard. I'm one to believe "the 10" really don't want to change anything. And it will be darn near impossible to have changes unless something appeases "the 10".

I expect to get a lot of backlash for this, but I think it would be better for the divisions to be divided more by North South than timezone. It would equal out travel more, keep more rivalries, and the league would make more money (do you expect people in Edmonton would be more likely to see Chicago, or Phoenix) keep northern teams playing against northern teams for the most money

Not backlash, but certainly a bit of infused logic:

• Detroit wants East to play more games within their own timezone
• Columbus wants East to play more games within their own timezone
• Winnipeg wants West to play more games within their own timezone
• Minnesota wants out of the Northwest and play more games within their own timezone
• Dallas wants out of the Pacific and play more games within their own timezone
• Edmonton wants to be in a division of Mountain and Pacific teams because they want to play more games within their own timezone.
• Every team in the East plays at least 71 of 82 games in their own timezone and many don't want to change it.

But instead, the thought is that a North/South alignment will make more money, because Edmonton would rather play Chicago than Phoenix? Edmonton already sells out every game. They can't make more money unless they jack up the ticket prices.

The teams in the North don't have a money problem. The teams in the South have a revenue problem, and placing teams in the North together just adds to the haves and segregates the have-nots (the South). And it certainly won't improve the revenue of the Southern teams: If Dallas at Anaheim was so good Dallas wouldn't be screaming about joining Central Time Zone teams.