NHL Dmen Rankings #15 Tie Braker: DOUGHTY VS THEODORE

[M2Beezy]

So round 15 ends in a tie so its time for a tie braker! Who ya got, the proven all rounded Doughty, or the upcoming offensive dynamo Theodore???

REMINDER: Political Discussion is NOT PERMITTED

1 TB Hedman 82% 2020 HFBoards NHL Dmen Rankings #1
2 NASH Josi 76% 2020 HFBoards NHL Dmen #2
3 COLU Jones 40% 2020 HFBoards NHL Dmen Rankings #3
4 Pieterangelo LVGK 59% 2020 HFBoards NHL Dmen Rankings #4
5 DALL Heiskanen 39% 2020 HFBoards NHL Dmen Rankings #5
6 WASH Carlson 26% 2020 HFBoards NHL Dmen Rankings #6
7 CAR Slavin 40% 2020 HFBoards NHL Dmen Rankings #7
8 COL Makar 33% 2020 HFBoards NHL Dmen Rankings #8
9 CAR Hamilton 23% 2020 HFBoards NHL Dmen Rankings #9
10 VAN Hughes 19% 2020 NHL Dmen Rankings #10
11 BOS Macavoy 26% 2020 NHL Dmen Rankings #11
12 SJ Karlsson 19% 2020 NHL Dmen Rankings #12
13 OTT Chabot 14% 2020 NHL Dmen Rankings #13
14 MON Weber 16% NHL Dmen Rankings #14
15 TIE Doughty/Theodore 18% NHL Dmen Rankings #15

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[bossram]

Yah it's 2020, so not Doughty lol

 

[GermanSpitfire]

People still get confused with the difference between a bad player and a bad contract.

 

[780il]

People still get confused with the difference between a bad player and a bad contract.

Exactly.

Theodore also getting overrated imo.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

People still get confused with the difference between a great player and a player who used to be great.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Doughty. He’s just on a much worse team.

 

[M2Beezy]

Looks like Theodore will get the edge here

 

[Skolman]

Man, Theodore is overrated.

 

[biturbo19]

I like Theodore a lot, but in this case...i think reports of Doughty's demise have been greatly exaggerated. I'd still take him every day, on my team...over Theodore.

 

[Krewe]

Doughty has been terrible for two years running. He doesn’t deserve to go above a good player until he shows he can be decent again

 

[HanSolo]

Man, Theodore is overrated.

Exactly.

Theodore also getting overrated imo.

He was the best player on a team that made it to the conference finals and was second in playoff scoring by a defenseman until the finals started. He's rated just fine at 15-16.

 

[Skolman]

He was the best player on a team that made it to the conference finals and was second in playoff scoring by a defenseman until the finals started. He's rated just fine at 15-16.

Is he not extremely sheltered?

Sorry, but I like defenseman who can actually play defense.

 

[HanSolo]

Is he not extremely sheltered?

Sorry, but I like defenseman who can actually play defense.

He had the second highest toi of all skaters on the Knights in the playoffs and the most in the regular season. No he is not extremely sheltered. He's not sheltered at all. Sure in some situations he's not the go to shutdown guy but it's not like he's never out there against other team's top lines.

And beyond that, his defensive struggles are significantly overstated. He's not the type to play strong along the boards and isn't the most likely to push a guy out of the crease, I'll admit. But his positioning and stickwork are solid and he is more than capable of suppressing offense that way. Would he be my first choice to defend a one goal lead? No. But it's a huge stretch to suggest he can't play defense at all and there are a few guys already voted in that aren't exactly defensive titans.

 

[Krewe]

He had the second highest toi of all skaters on the Knights in the playoffs and the most in the regular season. No he is not extremely sheltered. He's not sheltered at all. Sure in some situations he's not the go to shutdown guy but it's not like he's never out there against other team's top lines.

And beyond that, his defensive struggles are significantly overstated. He's not the type to play strong along the boards and isn't the most likely to push a guy out of the crease, I'll admit. But his positioning and stickwork are solid and he is more than capable of suppressing offense that way. Would he be my first choice to defend a one goal lead? No. But it's a huge stretch to suggest he can't play defense at all and there are a few guys already voted in that aren't exactly defensive titans.

So I think Theodore is clearly elite at driving play and better than doughty, but he actually is very shelted if you dive into it. There is a great article touting theodore that points this out (Breaking Down Shea Theodore's Offensive Impact). Basically the gist is he is the most shelted top-pairing D in the league (though I guess SOMEONE in the league has to be 62nd out of 62). However, he still produces at an elite level on offense, so it doesn't really matter in my eyes.

 

[HanSolo]

So I think Theodore is clearly elite at driving play and better than doughty, but he actually is very shelted if you dive into it. There is a great article touting theodore that points this out (Breaking Down Shea Theodore's Offensive Impact). Basically the gist is he is the most shelted top-pairing D in the league (though I guess SOMEONE in the league has to be 62nd out of 62). However, he still produces at an elite level on offense, so it doesn't really matter in my eyes.

Guess it doesn't feel like it watching him but fine. Like you said, his ability to drive play is the best of anyone on the Knights. Wouldn't trade him for Doughty straight up and that's even without taking into account that we have Pietrangelo now.

 

[Krewe]

Guess it doesn't feel like it watching him but fine. Like you said, his ability to drive play is the best of anyone on the Knights. Wouldn't trade him for Doughty straight up and that's even without taking into account that we have Pietrangelo now.

Agreed. The best play-driving D on a cup contender is still an elite player even without playing tough minutes .

Same thing with Stone. Idk how people think VGK is so good and then consistently underrate individual players.

 

[isles55]

Doughty is underrated but Theodore is the better player.

 

[Paul4587]

He had the second highest toi of all skaters on the Knights in the playoffs and the most in the regular season. No he is not extremely sheltered. He's not sheltered at all. Sure in some situations he's not the go to shutdown guy but it's not like he's never out there against other team's top lines.

And beyond that, his defensive struggles are significantly overstated. He's not the type to play strong along the boards and isn't the most likely to push a guy out of the crease, I'll admit. But his positioning and stickwork are solid and he is more than capable of suppressing offense that way. Would he be my first choice to defend a one goal lead? No. But it's a huge stretch to suggest he can't play defense at all and there are a few guys already voted in that aren't exactly defensive titans.

He never plays on the PK, is rarely on the ice to defend leads late in games and his coaches go out of their way to keep him away from other teams top lines. He also gets a high number of offensive zone starts.

That’s the definition of sheltered.

 

[ESH]

He never plays on the PK, is rarely on the ice to defend leads late in games and his coaches go out of their way to keep him away from other teams top lines. He also gets a high number of offensive zone starts.

That’s the definition of sheltered.

You can’t shelter a guy who plays that many minutes. Even if he’s not out against top lines he’s out against the next best. 2nd lines are still tough competition too, believe it or not.

 

[kilowatt]

When Doughty leads the Kings to the playoffs next and wins the Norris, we’ll all have a laugh.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

You can’t shelter a guy who plays that many minutes. Even if he’s not out against top lines he’s out against the next best. 2nd lines are still tough competition too, believe it or not.

The Knights' depth makes that look a little tougher than it is, given his 22:24/game was 64th amongst playoff skaters.

Can't fault a guy for the minutes he's playing but you also can't pretend he's some all situations savant.

Theodore obviously excelling in his played minutes but this seems crafted to paint him as something he's not.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

People still get confused with the difference between a great player and a player who used to be great.

People give lots of other defensemen passes for bad years, why doesn't Doughty get one? He's 1.5 years removed from arguably his best season in the NHL.

He was a Norris runner-up on the 2010 Kings (to Keith) and on the 2018 Kings (to Hedman, arguably should have won, no one chanting "due" hedman for...some reason), neither of which will be recognized as powerhouses.

I think what's notable is that when he was engaged he looked like the same ol 2018 Drew, i.e. Calgary games, lol. He doesn't look wholly spent the same way some other dudes do. You would think between that and literally a decade of almost wall-to-wall consistent dominance with 16 total games missed out of 1019 NHL games played including playoffs and plus Olympics/Tourneys he would have earned a little bit of rope but no, his literal first rough season means he's washed.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

People give lots of other defensemen passes for bad years, why doesn't Doughty get one? He's 1.5 years removed from arguably his best season in the NHL.

He was a Norris runner-up on the 2010 Kings (to Keith) and on the 2018 Kings (to Hedman, arguably should have won, no one chanting "due" hedman for...some reason), neither of which will be recognized as powerhouses.

I think what's notable is that when he was engaged he looked like the same ol 2018 Drew, i.e. Calgary games, lol. He doesn't look wholly spent the same way some other dudes do. You would think between that and literally a decade of almost wall-to-wall consistent dominance with 16 total games missed out of 1019 NHL games played including playoffs and plus Olympics/Tourneys he would have earned a little bit of rope but no, his literal first rough season means he's washed.

He got one. 2018-2019 was a bad year.

He doesn't get another.

 

[Krewe]

He got one. 2018-2019 was a bad year.

He doesn't get another.

TWO years in a row of a player being bad is def enough in my book to demote someone. Doughty has been awful. Even IF it is his "lack of care" then that is almost worse for me. If that's the case then I don't think you can trust a player who gives up so easily when his team isn't good

 

[HanSolo]

The Knights' depth makes that look a little tougher than it is, given his 22:24/game was 64th amongst playoff skaters.

Can't fault a guy for the minutes he's playing but you also can't pretend he's some all situations savant.

Theodore obviously excelling in his played minutes but this seems crafted to paint him as something he's not.

That's a bit misleading though. The Golden Knights as a team have a policy to balance blueline TOI. Schmidt, who was the toi leader only averaged 23 minutes a night. You can't shelter your entire blueline.