NHL and Transfer Fees

[Sam Spade]

I've been a fan forever and had not idea about this. I knew the NHL supported USA Hockey and Hockey Canada but not the rest of it.

NHL primes pump for future talent with transfer fees

That feeder system is partially responsible for the game’s explosion of young talent in recent years. Nowhere is that more evident than Sweden, which received roughly $8 million last year for Dahlin and more than 30 other players signing in NHL contracts.

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[vorky]

The NHL Transfer Agreement is the worst thing which could happen to European hockey. The NHL has been plundering European players market while not paying appropriate financial compensation. What the NHL pays is not a transfer fee, it is a development fee. A transfer fee is when two teams agree on financial compensation. This is not a case here.

A European club has no right to deny a transfer of a player under European contract to NHL. Hertl was under contract with Slavia Prague in Czech rep, but he signed with SJS. Slavia did not want to let him go, but had to due to NHL TA. We can say the NHL does not respect players contracts with European clubs.

On the other hand, we have Kovalchuk & NJD. The NHL, the NJD had to allow Kovalchuk to sign with SKA. Can you ever see this in opposite case, that a European club has to allow his player to sign in NHL? No. Why does not the NHL respect European players contracts?

Is is so complicated to come and ask a Swedish club how much money do Swedes want to Dahlin? Why not to agree a transfer fee on individual basis? Some players have more value than others.....

Of course the NHL does not want it. We can blame European hockey officials who signed the NHL TA. They alllowed the NHL to rob their market.

 

[Ceremony]

In a previous life I remember someone on the internet posting about this around the time Ovechkin was making his NHL debut. When the possibility of paying a fee came up, the justification for not doing so was "what if he's not any good?" A quoted figure deemed fair was also ~500k. I'll let you to judge that on your own.

 

[CodeE]

The NHL Transfer Agreement is the worst thing which could happen to European hockey. The NHL has been plundering European players market while not paying appropriate financial compensation. What the NHL pays is not a transfer fee, it is a development fee. A transfer fee is when two teams agree on financial compensation. This is not a case here.

A European club has no right to deny a transfer of a player under European contract to NHL. Hertl was under contract with Slavia Prague in Czech rep, but he signed with SJS. Slavia did not want to let him go, but had to due to NHL TA. We can say the NHL does not respect players contracts with European clubs.

On the other hand, we have Kovalchuk & NJD. The NHL, the NJD had to allow Kovalchuk to sign with SKA. Can you ever see this in opposite case, that a European club has to allow his player to sign in NHL? No. Why does not the NHL respect European players contracts?

Is is so complicated to come and ask a Swedish club how much money do Swedes want to Dahlin? Why not to agree a transfer fee on individual basis? Some players have more value than others.....

Of course the NHL does not want it. We can blame European hockey officials who signed the NHL TA. They alllowed the NHL to rob their market.

Because the NHL is the best league in the world with the best talent. The best talent will naturally want to play for the best league.

Let's try another sport. Some American or Canadian kid is an absolute dynamo at soccer, potentially the next Ronaldo or Messi. They might play in the Vancouver Whitecaps or Real Salt Lake for the first few years, but if Barcelona or Manchester United start making serious overtures, they won't be dominating the MLS for very much longer. Despite Real Salt Lake wanting their wunderkind to keep selling tickets for the next decade.

You can't keep the best players in the world - like Dahlin and many other Europeans - from playing in the best league in the world where the financial opportunities are greatest. Don't like it? Do what some KHL teams do and convince your top players to stay in Europe rather than make the trip overseas.

 

[vorky]

Because the NHL is the best league in the world with the best talent. The best talent will naturally want to play for the best league.

Let's try another sport. Some American or Canadian kid is an absolute dynamo at soccer, potentially the next Ronaldo or Messi. They might play in the Vancouver Whitecaps or Real Salt Lake for the first few years, but if Barcelona or Manchester United start making serious overtures, they won't be dominating the MLS for very much longer. Despite Real Salt Lake wanting their wunderkind to keep selling tickets for the next decade.

You can't keep the best players in the world - like Dahlin and many other Europeans - from playing in the best league in the world where the financial opportunities are greatest. Don't like it? Do what some KHL teams do and convince your top players to stay in Europe rather than make the trip overseas.

I will start with the last paragraph. No, I do not want to keep players in Europe. No problem, they can move to the NHL.

The only problem is transfer rules.

Thank you for an example of some American or Canadian kid in soccer. Great one! To reply you and compare with hockey.

FC Barcelona wants to sign him because he is really good. Fine. FC Barcelona will come to Vancouver Whitecaps or Real Salt Lake to talk about a transfer fee. You know, on an individual basis, because he is really good. They agree, he moves to Europe. If he is young enough (U23 I believe), FC Barcelona has to pay a development fee to the club. The sum is set by the FIFA or similar governing body.

Now hockey. A kid in Sweden is really good. A NHL club wants to sign him. The NHL club does not ask his Swedish club if they agree with releasing him. The NHL club does not agree a transfer fee on individual basis. The NHL, not the NHL club, pay a development fee of 200-300k USD to the Swedish hockey federation, not the Swedish club.

I hope you can see a difference.

As written in the article, Switzerland and the KHL refused to accept such transfer rules. They have all my respect for protecting their clubs and players. Those leagues are only leagues who are not the NHL´s colony. Sweden, Finland, Czech rep and others are regular NHL´s colony.

You to know, the NHL clubs - not the NHL as a league! - paid a transfer fee agreed with European clubs on an individual basis the early 90s. I know about Yashin case when the Senators paid 700k USD to Dynamo Moscow. Today the NHL pays around 200-300k USD to Swedish hockey federation. See? Today the NHL pays much less, even the NHL´s revenues and players salaries are much higher than in 1992.

Yes, the NHL has no reason to change their policy. The league has bought every important European hockey official, who has no problem to sign the NHL TA. Why should not he do it? He is offered a free ticket to Toronto or NY! Worth of one signature! That European club hockey has been destroyed? Why should an official care? He has a free ticket to Toronto!

We call it corruption in Europe btw.

 

[Bakayoko Ono]

It's a pretty depressing reality for the European clubs but they just have no leverage in the unipolar world of professional hockey. The NHL is a business and they have the might to dictate the terms in any transfer agreements, it's up to the European clubs to accept them or not.

 

[vorky]

It's a pretty depressing reality for the European clubs but they just have no leverage in the unipolar world of professional hockey. The NHL is a business and they have the might to dictate the terms in any transfer agreements, it's up to the European clubs to accept them or not.

True. But they (Europeans) do not even try to negotiate better terms. They just give up and accept whatever the NHL offers. Except for Swiss & the KHL.

The saddest part is Swedes, who have a great developing model, but their leadership accepted the role of a farm league for the NHL. And they are even proud of it. There are a few Swedish clubs who oppose the NHL TA, but they can not do anything. I remember how the NHL promised Swedes to leave prospects in Sweden for a longer period. The reality? You know. GMs of some SHL clubs complain that a prospect even does not play a single game at SHL level and is signed by an NHL club. And then loaned to SHL as goodwill. Of course, an SHL club cannot control his future, he can leave whenever he wants. That is a crazy system.

Swedes have been playing a key role in destroying European club hockey.

 

[PurpleMouse]

Vorky's issues with the transfer system ultimately come back to geography. Let's compare to soccer.

If you look at the land mass and population in Canada & USA, and compare it to the "big 5" leagues in soccer (and even some of the neighbouring countires). Canada/USA actually has a bigger land mass and covers a bigger population.

But due to the natural evolution of sports in those countries, there was always going to be one league per sport in North America, where as leagues are drawn by country lines in Europe.

Because the NHL as a league has a near monopoly on elite talent, they can structure a system to relatively evenly distribute talent within that one league, where as the soccer leagues are competing with each other.

Now, in the future, if a rumoured full time Champions League becomes a thing, you can bet the amount of money they pay in transfer fees for players will DRASTICALLY go down. Now Euro teams can't get a lot for players because they know players will bolt for the NHL. Would likely be the same if CL was the only club competition for the big European teams and it might be closer than people think to happening.

 

[vorky]

@PurpleMouse

I agree the NHL has a monopoly.

You are right European soccer clubs/leagues competing with each other. And still, they respect players contracts with Brazil, Argentinian, American, Canadian etc clubs. The rules are clear. We do not have that rules in hockey.

I did not get your last paragraph.

 

[PurpleMouse]

The point I was making is that if all the European soccer teams were all in one league that that soccer league would function the exact way the NHL does now.

 

[vorky]

The point I was making is that if all the European soccer teams were all in one league that that soccer league would function the exact way the NHL does now.

You are wrong.

Even if there was one soccer league, the principle of negotiation on transfer fee (individual basis) would not be changed.

 

[New User Name]

Fees from the NHL to all hockey federations should be 100% the same.
Hockey Canada or USA hockey should not receive more for their players than the respective European hockey federations. The US development teams should not receive one red cent more than whatever the players signed by NHL teams would get them. But we know they do!

 

[PurpleMouse]

You are wrong.

Even if there was one soccer league, the principle of negotiation on transfer fee (individual basis) would not be changed.

But the fees would drop when the league realised they could get away with paying less for players because they have a monopoly.

Sports entities will do what works most to their benefit.

 

[vorky]

But the fees would drop when the league realised they could get away with paying less for players because they have a monopoly.

Sports entities will do what works most to their benefit.

No.

I would fix your statement: when the American league realised they could get away with paying less for players because they have a monopoly.

Again, the NHL clubs negotiated the transfer fees on an individual basis the early 90s. Then they realised they do not need to.

Radulov´s agent said the NHL was scared when Radulov left the Preds to join Salavat Yulaev of the KHL. Of course, they were scared because their system of plundering the market had a loophole. The NHL wanted to fix it so signed the MoU with the KHL as early as possible. The MoU differs from the NHL TA (as with Swedes etc) that NHL clubs honour the KHL players contracts. The NHL team cannot take a KHL player as the NHL club would wish. And Russian players, who stay at home, are in the best position ever. Especially those who are not drafted. See Gusev who will not sign with the Vegas, he does not want to play for the team. The players have options.

Tell me, why no similar deal with other European leagues? The deal when the NHL club respects a player´s deal with Swedish etc club.

 

[Havre]

But the fees would drop when the league realised they could get away with paying less for players because they have a monopoly.

Sports entities will do what works most to their benefit.

That is based on the assumption that there would be anything close to a "league" coordinating action in the same way as it does in the NHL. I couldn't say that wouldn't happen, but I find it highly unlikely. Arguably you could have seen something along those lines happening in the Premier League in England, but in reality the opposite is happening. English teams outbid each other chasing foreign players - even if competition from non-English teams are extremely limited (only for the very best players that teams like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus and a couple of other teams is there "real competition").

 

[Albatros]

In soccer one such league could surely gather most of the best players, but there's no path to the same kind of abusive monopoly that the NHL enjoys in hockey. The national federations would never ever allow that.

 

[ES]

If there was no transfer agreement, I think player like Rasmus Dahlin would have made sure that his contract will expire in 2018 and he won't sign a new one until it's clear whether he can get NHL contract right after the draft or not.

 

[vorky]

If there was no transfer agreement, I think player like Rasmus Dahlin would have made sure that his contract will expire in 2018 and he won't sign a new one until it's clear whether he can get NHL contract right after the draft or not.

This is exactly a problem. A player can do whatever he wants. Malkin signed with Magnitka and run away a few days later. Tatar signed with Zvolen to leave the club a few days later. Of course, without compensation.

I am sure you remember how the KHL clubs paid solid transfer fees to Swedish/Finnish clubs in early KHL era. The KHL clubs respected the rules, they wanted a player under contract, they paid to his club. What did happen later? Players, especially Finns, "discovered" an out-clause, of course without compensation for a club. An irony is that the KHL clubs still pay financial compensation to Swiss clubs, but not to Finnish or Swedish or Czech.

The NHL can take any European player. Any. They do not even need the approval of the European club. Who cares about a club who have invested into player´s development?

Of course, the NHL earning millions from players. And of course, European clubs getting nothing. There was an example of American/Canadian player. I can talk about Brazilian or Argentinian clubs. When they sell a player, really top player, to Europe - the Brazilian club gets a transfer fee and there is an option that the same Brazilian club gets a few % of a transfer fee if the player is traded between two European clubs later. A mystery in hockey. Who cares about a club developing the player?

The NHL & the KHL have been creating their own transfer system. The system is unique because the system is regulated by an agreement between two PRIVATE leagues. Now imagine, the KHL expands to Europe/Asia with 3-4 clubs. That is 50-60 European players who will sign with those teams. The NHL expanding with Seattle at the same time. Can you imagine the pressure on European clubs? Who will play their local leagues? NLA will be OK, DEL will be OK. I do not know about the Czech league, but the SHL will suffer a lot. Liiga has been under big pressure for a few years already.

And now imagine the KHL is established in Europe. There is a lot of time ahead of us, but let us imagine it. The NHL & the KHL will be controlling all player market. That is OK. The transfers will be regulated by an agreement between the NHL & the KHL. Nobody will care about an opinion of the European hockey leagues/clubs/federations. Small European clubs will be only victims.

If Europe wants to survive, they need to jump into the process. And they need to sign a similar agreement with the NHL as the KHL did. And the best scenario would be if the KHL is included. Honestly, I do not believe Europeans hockey officials will do that. They will rather do nothing than to co-operate with the KHL.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

This is exactly a problem. A player can do whatever he wants. Malkin signed with Magnitka and run away a few days later. Tatar signed with Zvolen to leave the club a few days later. Of course, without compensation.

I am sure you remember how the KHL clubs paid solid transfer fees to Swedish/Finnish clubs in early KHL era. The KHL clubs respected the rules, they wanted a player under contract, they paid to his club. What did happen later? Players, especially Finns, "discovered" an out-clause, of course without compensation for a club. An irony is that the KHL clubs still pay financial compensation to Swiss clubs, but not to Finnish or Swedish or Czech.

The NHL can take any European player. Any. They do not even need the approval of the European club. Who cares about a club who have invested into player´s development?

Of course, the NHL earning millions from players. And of course, European clubs getting nothing. There was an example of American/Canadian player. I can talk about Brazilian or Argentinian clubs. When they sell a player, really top player, to Europe - the Brazilian club gets a transfer fee and there is an option that the same Brazilian club gets a few % of a transfer fee if the player is traded between two European clubs later. A mystery in hockey. Who cares about a club developing the player?

The NHL & the KHL have been creating their own transfer system. The system is unique because the system is regulated by an agreement between two PRIVATE leagues. Now imagine, the KHL expands to Europe/Asia with 3-4 clubs. That is 50-60 European players who will sign with those teams. The NHL expanding with Seattle at the same time. Can you imagine the pressure on European clubs? Who will play their local leagues? NLA will be OK, DEL will be OK. I do not know about the Czech league, but the SHL will suffer a lot. Liiga has been under big pressure for a few years already.

And now imagine the KHL is established in Europe. There is a lot of time ahead of us, but let us imagine it. The NHL & the KHL will be controlling all player market. That is OK. The transfers will be regulated by an agreement between the NHL & the KHL. Nobody will care about an opinion of the European hockey leagues/clubs/federations. Small European clubs will be only victims.

If Europe wants to survive, they need to jump into the process. And they need to sign a similar agreement with the NHL as the KHL did. And the best scenario would be if the KHL is included. Honestly, I do not believe Europeans hockey officials will do that. They will rather do nothing than to co-operate with the KHL.

and if they do that they'll still lose out. the top players just wont sign at all to a Euro league.

and btw, remind me again how much the KHL paid teams like the Blues and Devils for Sobotka and Kovalchuk?

sorry, its the reality of being small fish. Euro teams dont deserve compensation for players lost any more than say my current company does if I leave for a higher paying job.

 

[vorky]

and if they do that they'll still lose out. the top players just wont sign at all to a Euro league.

and btw, remind me again how much the KHL paid teams like the Blues and Devils for Sobotka and Kovalchuk?

Thank you for a question.

The NHL created a system where a transfer fee cannot be paid. You know, an NHL club can not negotiate with a European club on a financial compensation/fee. I recommend you to ask Bettman & Daly why it is not legal.

I support a system when a KHL/EU club pays a transfer fee for a player under NHL contract. On the other hand, the system should work both sides, so the NHL club has to agree on a transfer fee for every European player under contract. Is the NHL ready for it?

I believe you know the differences in status quo. The NJD & the NHL HAD TO AGREE with Kovalchuk´s transfer to SKA. But, an NHL club nor the NHL do not even ask a European club if the EU club agrees with a transfer of their player to the NHL. They do not even talk about a transfer fee. See?

I agree with you that the Kovalchuk´s and Datsyuk´s retirement was weird. It was a result of a wrong transfer policy int he NHL. The NHL transfer rules are from the colonial era. You to get it, taking all asset from a colony for free.

sorry, its the reality of being small fish. Euro teams dont deserve compensation for players lost any more than say my current company does if I leave for a higher paying job.

That is your opinion.

 

[alko]

Sure, the NHL should pay more for an Europe (Asia) players.

You see every year that salary cap is rising, league revenues are rising, and with every new NHL team the welcome-in payment is higher and higher. If they are so happy about the talent from Europe, they should boost it even more.
Swedes are happy, because they send 30 players to NHL almost every year. But they should support also small countries like Slovakia, Denmark, France ...

 

[vorky]

Sure, the NHL should pay more for an Europe (Asia) players.

You see every year that salary cap is rising, league revenues are rising, and with every new NHL team the welcome-in payment is higher and higher. If they are so happy about the talent from Europe, they should boost it even more.
Swedes are happy, because they send 30 players to NHL almost every year. But they should support also small countries like Slovakia, Denmark, France ...

There are Swedish GM who complains. Not all Swedish clubs are happy as you wrote.

 

[edog37]

The NHL Transfer Agreement is the worst thing which could happen to European hockey. The NHL has been plundering European players market while not paying appropriate financial compensation. What the NHL pays is not a transfer fee, it is a development fee. A transfer fee is when two teams agree on financial compensation. This is not a case here.

A European club has no right to deny a transfer of a player under European contract to NHL. Hertl was under contract with Slavia Prague in Czech rep, but he signed with SJS. Slavia did not want to let him go, but had to due to NHL TA. We can say the NHL does not respect players contracts with European clubs.

On the other hand, we have Kovalchuk & NJD. The NHL, the NJD had to allow Kovalchuk to sign with SKA. Can you ever see this in opposite case, that a European club has to allow his player to sign in NHL? No. Why does not the NHL respect European players contracts?

Is is so complicated to come and ask a Swedish club how much money do Swedes want to Dahlin? Why not to agree a transfer fee on individual basis? Some players have more value than others.....

Of course the NHL does not want it. We can blame European hockey officials who signed the NHL TA. They alllowed the NHL to rob their market.

That's because the NHL is the top league in the world & both sides understand this. The Euro leagues are not peers with the NHL. They are a step or two below. And talent goes where the best play. You think if the euro leagues played hardball, the players would just accept that? They would all jump ship & go either major junior or college. The NFL pays nothing to the NCAA to develop their talent, so at the very least, you are getting some sort of compensation. That's just the way the world works...

 

[edog37]

and if they do that they'll still lose out. the top players just wont sign at all to a Euro league.

and btw, remind me again how much the KHL paid teams like the Blues and Devils for Sobotka and Kovalchuk?

sorry, its the reality of being small fish. Euro teams dont deserve compensation for players lost any more than say my current company does if I leave for a higher paying job.

This right here.

 

[CodeE]

I will start with the last paragraph. No, I do not want to keep players in Europe. No problem, they can move to the NHL.

The only problem is transfer rules.

Thank you for an example of some American or Canadian kid in soccer. Great one! To reply you and compare with hockey.

FC Barcelona wants to sign him because he is really good. Fine. FC Barcelona will come to Vancouver Whitecaps or Real Salt Lake to talk about a transfer fee. You know, on an individual basis, because he is really good. They agree, he moves to Europe. If he is young enough (U23 I believe), FC Barcelona has to pay a development fee to the club. The sum is set by the FIFA or similar governing body.

Now hockey. A kid in Sweden is really good. A NHL club wants to sign him. The NHL club does not ask his Swedish club if they agree with releasing him. The NHL club does not agree a transfer fee on individual basis. The NHL, not the NHL club, pay a development fee of 200-300k USD to the Swedish hockey federation, not the Swedish club.

I hope you can see a difference.

As written in the article, Switzerland and the KHL refused to accept such transfer rules. They have all my respect for protecting their clubs and players. Those leagues are only leagues who are not the NHL´s colony. Sweden, Finland, Czech rep and others are regular NHL´s colony.

You to know, the NHL clubs - not the NHL as a league! - paid a transfer fee agreed with European clubs on an individual basis the early 90s. I know about Yashin case when the Senators paid 700k USD to Dynamo Moscow. Today the NHL pays around 200-300k USD to Swedish hockey federation. See? Today the NHL pays much less, even the NHL´s revenues and players salaries are much higher than in 1992.

Yes, the NHL has no reason to change their policy. The league has bought every important European hockey official, who has no problem to sign the NHL TA. Why should not he do it? He is offered a free ticket to Toronto or NY! Worth of one signature! That European club hockey has been destroyed? Why should an official care? He has a free ticket to Toronto!

We call it corruption in Europe btw.

The reason soccer has those transfer fees is because there are options to choose from. ManU and other English clubs, Barcelona and other Spanish clubs, Bayern and other German clubs, etc. etc.

So if Barcelona and Manchester United both want that Real Salt Lake kid, capitalism takes over. A bidding war begins, not only to entice Real Salt Lake to move the kid, but to have the kid want to play for a new team. Manchester is close to America, same language and such. Barcelona can offer the chance to play with Messi.

Are you familiar at all with professional wrestling? The differences between the way things worked in the mid-90s versus today explains everything.

In the mid-90s, there was the WWF (now WWE after a lawsuit) and WCW. Two major companies, with major television deals, giving top wrestlers the ability to choose. So when an independent wrestler or guy making waves in a smaller company (say a RVD or Taz), they see what both companies offer and make a decision. If a guy wants more money (Bret Hart WWF -> WCW) or more opportunities, (Chris Jericho WCW -> WWF) they wait til their contract expires and move. Much like Ronaldo moving from Real Madrid to Juventus.

But WWE eventually bought WCW, and while attempts were made to build a competitor, WWE controls the market. Thus, when a guy like CM Punk (a former WWE champ) decides to burn a bridge with the WWE, he's left with an embarrassing 0-2 MMA career and not much else.

Should the WWE - which like the NHL is a business that multimillionaires and billionaires want to see profits on - have to pay large sums of money to the Backyard Wrestling Alliance if they want to sign their top star, Thumbtack Tony to a developmental deal? Thumbtack Tony wants to wrestle for the WWE. The WWE wants him. Is the Backyard Wrestling Alliance willing to pay lawyer fees, going up against whatever lawyers the big company has on retainer, in order to extract more money?

You can call it a monopoly if you want, but unless another league becomes as big as the NHL, that's the way it is. The best basketball players play in the NBA, the best baseball players in the MLB. With no alternatives, with no competition, there's no reason for the NHL to negotiate a deal that sends more money to Finland and Sweden. If the KHL was as big as WCW, if players like Dahlin would seriously consider signing long-term with a KHL team over a NHL team, then it would equal a bidding war. A bidding war where Dahlin's Swedish team would be generously compensated by the team that wins the bidding war.

But there's no bidding war. There's only the big league where the Crosbys and McDavids of the world lace up their skates, who feel no obligation whatsoever to send more money overseas because it's the right thing to do.