Next Season (COVID-19 Discussion Thread as it relates to the OHL) [Part 3]

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OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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And how has "listening to both sides" actually helped? Answer: it hasn't.. which is why the vast majority of the world is in this mess.

Again.. Taiwan.... a far better example than Sweden.

What mess are you specifically referring to?

Are you referring to the 4 months of Cancer screening that wasn’t done resulting in thousands of future Cancer deaths because it wasn’t diagnosed in time? Maybe you are referring to the increase in unemployment rate and how it has a negative effect on mortality? Or could it be the documented increase in household abuse or violent crime rates? Oh, it is probably the number of small businesses that have or will shut down for good as a result of the restrictions put in place. Maybe it could be the additional debt burden we will have to carry as a result of the lockdowns?

I am not sure what exactly you are referring to when you say, MESS. You may want to be more specific.
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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Ya.. really doesn't cover anything in the post you quoted.

Taiwan had buy in from it's citizens, and handled the pandemic very very well. Canada didn't... and still doesn't... and it as not been good. Other areas of the world are a disaster... and they have all handled it poorly.

Your talk about the hospitals is interesting, I'm guessing you didn't read the article I posted earlier about most of the hospitals already at capacity and the bigger issue is a lack of staff to cover the LTC and field hospitals that could be utilized during the winter.

I know this is anecdotal but the hospital I work in shut down 35% of their beds (as have many other hospitals) because they don’t have the financial resources to operate them. So, yes, they are at capacity but that is after they shut down a good portion of their space.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
What mess are you specifically referring to?

Are you referring to the 4 months of Cancer screening that wasn’t done resulting in thousands of future Cancer deaths because it wasn’t diagnosed in time? Maybe you are referring to the increase in unemployment rate and how it has a negative effect on mortality? Or could it be the documented increase in household abuse or violent crime rates? Oh, it is probably the number of small businesses that have or will shut down for good as a result of the restrictions put in place. Maybe it could be the additional debt burden we will have to carry as a result of the lockdowns?

I am not sure what exactly you are referring to when you say, MESS. You may want to be more specific.

Yes.... because a section of the population decided to be yahoos.

Had we handled it like Taiwan we would be talking about how the London Knights would be winning the Memorial Cup this season and why the Steelheads are still in Mississauga.

(That being said, Cancer screening was still being done.. I can't speak to every hospital, but Princess Margaret has been steady throughout the Pandemic.)
 

OMG67

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Speaks to the society. Asian countries populations are far more compliant than Western countries. We are a ME, ME, ME society. As such, measures to mitigate the spread of a disease only works for so long until the selfishness kicks in. The fixation on a vaccine and getting back to normal is just the veneer over the "I want" attitude of most people in Western countries.

Now that's not to say we don't need to open up business, our society is based on a strong , thriving economy and right now the foundation is crumbling. Just don't need parties, raves at bars or going to a gym when they are a known spreading engine. But still the self wants what it wants.

I fully agree there needs to be a lot more common sense and sometimes it isn’t so common.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
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HockeyPops

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Are you referring to the 4 months of Cancer screening that wasn’t done resulting in thousands of future Cancer deaths because it wasn’t diagnosed in time?
I am unclear how this could have been improved had we operated under a Great Barrington Declaration model instead? Our hospitals would still be so overwhelmed we would be 7 months behind and counting...
 
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Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
I am unclear how this could have been improved had we operated under a Great Barrington Declaration model instead? Our hospitals would still be so overwhelmed we would be 7 months behind and counting...

As a matter of fact.. here's a hospital in Ottawa that was well over capacity and cancelling surgeries prior to Covid hitting Some patients transferred and some surgeries cancelled as Ottawa’s Queensway Carleton Hospital is over-capacity

I'd say if hospitals in Ottawa are willingly closing beds while others are over capacity (Recent report show that this hospital and the Ottawa Hospital are over capacity) then those hospitals that are closing beds are being reckless with the health of the public.
 
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OMG67

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Yes.... because a section of the population decided to be yahoos.

Had we handled it like Taiwan we would be talking about how the London Knights would be winning the Memorial Cup this season and why the Steelheads are still in Mississauga.

(That being said, Cancer screening was still being done.. I can't speak to every hospital, but Princess Margaret has been steady throughout the Pandemic.)

Only Emergency services were being done. So, if you clearly had signs of Cancer, you were screened. For all those people that do their regular checkups etc, they were not.

For example, if yo are 55 years old and didn’t go to your doctor for your annual physical and Prostate exam, you didn’t get your Potential prostate cancer concerns identified.

Things like colonoscopy’s and other routine screening were not done unless they were emergency procedures.

If hospitals in general had theses procedures shut down for three months, that means the number of people that would have been diagnosed with illnesses would not have been diagnosed. That is also assuming their delay is 3 months. In many cases, the delay will now be 6 months to a year. You can imagine how many people will now have gone undiagnosed when time is now not in their favour. Consider also there may have been non-surgical means of treatment available as options had the illness/disease been identified sooner. This will now also lead to more invasive procedures being required which will further exhaust OR capacities.

The domino effects of the approach we have taken and may continue to take throughout this winter will have irreparable damage.
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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I am unclear how this could have been improved had we operated under a Great Barrington Declaration model instead? Our hospitals would still be so overwhelmed we would be 7 months behind and counting...

To be clear, I am not saying that the Great Barrington Declaration is the model with which I suggest. I use that as an example of the dissenting opinions of Scientists regarding how to handle the Pandemic. I have stated my opinion in the past with which my recommendation. I have never changed my opinion once the data pointed to a clear vulnerable sector.
 

OMG67

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As a matter of fact.. here's a hospital in Ottawa that was well over capacity and cancelling surgeries prior to Covid hitting Some patients transferred and some surgeries cancelled as Ottawa’s Queensway Carleton Hospital is over-capacity

I'd say if hospitals in Ottawa are willingly closing beds while others are over capacity (Recent report show that this hospital and the Ottawa Hospital are over capacity) then those hospitals that are closing beds are being reckless with the health of the public.

Queenway Carleton is a small community hospital.

The Ottawa Hospital is the main surgical Hospital with over 100 Operating Rooms that are in use up to 16 hours per day.

Other fringe hospitals outside Ottawa aren’t nearly close to capacity. Mostly because patients choose not to travel the 30-60 minutes to get there.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
Only Emergency services were being done. So, if you clearly had signs of Cancer, you were screened. For all those people that do their regular checkups etc, they were not.

For example, if yo are 55 years old and didn’t go to your doctor for your annual physical and Prostate exam, you didn’t get your Potential prostate cancer concerns identified.

Things like colonoscopy’s and other routine screening were not done unless they were emergency procedures.

If hospitals in general had theses procedures shut down for three months, that means the number of people that would have been diagnosed with illnesses would not have been diagnosed. That is also assuming their delay is 3 months. In many cases, the delay will now be 6 months to a year. You can imagine how many people will now have gone undiagnosed when time is now not in their favour. Consider also there may have been non-surgical means of treatment available as options had the illness/disease been identified sooner. This will now also lead to more invasive procedures being required which will further exhaust OR capacities.

The domino effects of the approach we have taken and may continue to take throughout this winter will have irreparable damage.

From March 1st to October 6th I have had 8 MRI's, 4 CTs ,an ultrasound and a biopsy ... all routine, no emergency. .. anecdotal, but as I said, the patient volume at PMH didn't appear to be any less than prior.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
Queenway Carleton is a small community hospital.

The Ottawa Hospital is the main surgical Hospital with over 100 Operating Rooms that are in use up to 16 hours per day.

Other fringe hospitals outside Ottawa aren’t nearly close to capacity. Mostly because patients choose not to travel the 30 minutes to get there.

So they close 35% of the beds? What do they do with the staff? Sounds like those hospitals could be reaching out to help the ones that are over capacity and are not.
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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So they close 35% of the beds? What do they do with the staff? Sounds like those hospitals could be reaching out to help the ones that are over capacity and are not.

The clinical staff is twiddling their thumbs like they did during the entire Pandemic in the Spring when almost half of the hospital was shut down keeping only emergency procedures open.

The hospital eliminated 30+ non-clinical positions and terminated their employment.

An entire wing is now closed (30+ beds) and won’t reopen for at least two years unless it is required to reopen as a Covid Wing.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
The clinical staff is twiddling their thumbs like they did during the entire Pandemic in the Spring when almost half of the hospital was shut down keeping only emergency procedures open.

The hospital eliminated 30+ non-clinical positions and terminated their employment.

An entire wing is now closed (30+ beds) and won’t reopen for at least two years unless it is required to reopen as a Covid Wing.

And here is part of the reason why Ottawa is a problem.
 

dmead

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Jan 12, 2018
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The clinical staff is twiddling their thumbs like they did during the entire Pandemic in the Spring when almost half of the hospital was shut down keeping only emergency procedures open.

The hospital eliminated 30+ non-clinical positions and terminated their employment.

An entire wing is now closed (30+ beds) and won’t reopen for at least two years unless it is required to reopen as a Covid Wing.

Really? Sounds overly reactionary and short sighted to me. Why am I not surprised?
 
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BadgerBruce

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Aug 8, 2013
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To be clear, I am not saying that the Great Barrington Declaration is the model with which I suggest. I use that as an example of the dissenting opinions of Scientists regarding how to handle the Pandemic. I have stated my opinion in the past with which my recommendation. I have never changed my opinion once the data pointed to a clear vulnerable sector.
Like you, I am the kind of person who tries to keep up with the evolving science, research and perspectives, largely because I want the best that is known and thought to inform my views. That’s not so easy to do in an age of misinformation, but it’s still my goal.

The Great Barrington Declaration can be viewed from a wide variety of perspectives. It’s fame really lasted just 5 minutes, and one of the main reasons for this is that economists of all stripes, people who typically disagree far more than they agree, are largely united in one core conclusion: the people who actually fall into the “Focused Protection” group are also the same people who control most of the western world’s wealth and generate the lion’s share of its economic activity. Many of them would be pleased as punch to see economic activity around the world return to pre-pandemic norms (greed knows no bounds), but that’s as far as they’ll go.

Rightly or wrongly, the generation possessing the greatest cumulative wealth in human history does not want the Declaration implemented. They view it as a first-step threat to their economic power and autonomy. Yes, the declaration proposes a kind of “opt-in, opt-out” mechanism, but the rich and powerful flat out don’t trust this. We live in a world where the most vulnerable people to the virus are at the same time the most powerful. Can you really blame them for poo-pooing any perceived threat to their dominance?
 

OHLTG

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Nov 18, 2008
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Not all Doctors agree. Not all Scientists agree. Not all Immunologists agree. Not all Infectious disease experts agree.

Give me a handful of doctors, scientists, immunologists, and infectious disease experts over some Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube randoms who are demanding that "this works, I swear!" or "You can't make me wear a mask!! MA RIGHTS!!" any day. The world is full of people who disagree; I'll still take experts over cranky anti-common sense folks any day.

Speaks to the society. Asian countries populations are far more compliant than Western countries. We are a ME, ME, ME society. As such, measures to mitigate the spread of a disease only works for so long until the selfishness kicks in. The fixation on a vaccine and getting back to normal is just the veneer over the "I want" attitude of most people in Western countries.

I said something similar back in May. What are other countries doing different than USA/Canada? We need(ed) to put aside our arrogance and come up with a solution. Instead, helloooo second wave.
 

RayzorIsDull

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Ek-hFIIXgAUskz-
 

swoopster

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Dec 10, 2015
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This will soon happen in Michigan as well. I have personally been in a local rink where compliance is not being met. Not one mask being worn in a couple of locker rooms I visited.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
Give me a handful of doctors, scientists, immunologists, and infectious disease experts over some Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube randoms who are demanding that "this works, I swear!" or "You can't make me wear a mask!! MA RIGHTS!!" any day. The world is full of people who disagree; I'll still take experts over cranky anti-common sense folks any day.

Especially when the report is wrought with biases

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/89204

"The declaration was sponsored by the American Institute for Economic Research, a libertarian, free-market think tank headquartered in western Massachusetts. The Institute is in a network of organizations funded by Charles Koch -- a right-wing billionaire known for promoting climate change denial and opposing regulations on business."

And then they commissioned three people who already had pre-conceived opinions that were of the same beliefs of their own.
 
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